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Post by semperfidelis on Aug 14, 2003 10:29:33 GMT -5
Where is it said that this pkmtyolpage in Isaiah is describing the 1000 year reign? I don't see that.. I think the pkmtyolpage in Isaiah correlates with this pkmtyolpage. I am sure you are familiar with it. Revelation 20 The Thousand Years 1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. Obviously this is going to be a time when there will be great peace and prosperity without Satan tempting the world.
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Post by guidemeLord on Aug 14, 2003 12:51:19 GMT -5
I think the pkmtyolpage in Isaiah correlates with this pkmtyolpage. I am sure you are familiar with it. Revelation 20 The Thousand Years 1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. Obviously this is going to be a time when there will be great peace and prosperity without Satan tempting the world. Isaiah 11 (according to what you are telling me) describes Jesus our saviour coming from the root of Jesse then verses later tells about His second coming? So even though it appears to be a fluent pkmtyolpage, you see a 2000 year gap in the chapter? I just don't see that.. I see the prophecy as an allegorical view of Christ's reign. JESUS IS KING OF KINGS NOW. That tells me that all these things have come to pkmtyolp... Does a Lamb lay with a Lion? nope not until Lions become herbivorous. So what does that mean? Jesus is the Prince of PEACE who sent His Spirit to bring us PEACE in this world! IMHO~ God planned Jesus' role from the creation of the world... (Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:) Why? So that He could destroy it all and take a few faithful to heaven in a great cataclysmic rapture/wrath? [glow=blue,12,300]NO![/glow] He has a purpose for those who are faithful on earth. We are to live HERE on earth and serve as priests in His kingdom as the Jews were supposed to have done in the OT but failed miserably. Psa 103:19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all. Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
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Post by semperfidelis on Aug 14, 2003 13:33:44 GMT -5
Isaiah 11 (according to what you are telling me) describes Jesus our saviour coming from the root of Jesse then verses later tells about His second coming? So even though it appears to be a fluent pkmtyolpage, you see a 2000 year gap in the chapter? I just don't see that.. I see the prophecy as an allegorical view of Christ's reign. JESUS IS KING OF KINGS NOW. That tells me that all these things have come to pkmtyolp... Does a Lamb lay with a Lion? nope not until Lions become herbivorous. So what does that mean? Jesus is the Prince of PEACE who sent His Spirit to bring us PEACE in this world! IMHO~ God planned Jesus' role from the creation of the world... (Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:) Why? So that He could destroy it all and take a few faithful to heaven in a great cataclysmic rapture/wrath? [glow=blue,12,300]NO![/glow] He has a purpose for those who are faithful on earth. We are to live HERE on earth and serve as priests in His kingdom as the Jews were supposed to have done in the OT but failed miserably. Psa 103:19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all. Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Guideme, you are a Preterist. The Preterist viewpoint has most or all of Matthew 24 being fulfilled in the disciples lifetime. First of all if his kingdom is now why does Daniel Chapter 2 have a clear prophecy of a future kingdom that is destroyed by a large stone that fills up the entire earth. I believe that the feet of the statue are a future kingdom that will produce the Antichrist, this kingdom will be destroyed by Christ and can be connected to Revelation 19:11. Daniel 2:44 44 "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands-a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. Revelation 19:11 11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[1] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Also this prophecy, which clearly shows that the men of the earth will see Christ return in great glory. Matthew 24 30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Also, take a look at what the angels say in Acts 1. Why would they say that he will return in the same way that he went up, obviously that means he will return to earth. Read it closely please. Acts 1 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." You are correct that we are to serve Christ while we are on the earth and to believers he is the reigning king. But, Satan has not been defeated at this time and the world is still under his influence. Hence, Jesus prophecy that the world would hate followers because of his name, until he comes back and defeats Satan and throws him into the lake of fire forever. These are future events. According to the scripture Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father until the seals of Revelation begin. Even if you do not believe in the rapture it does not change the coming prophecy of future events like the rise of the Son of Perdition, The two Witnesses and the Judgements of Revelation.
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Post by doody on Aug 15, 2003 18:40:29 GMT -5
guidemelord, I believe your teachings on the Book of Revelation are false. You'd better be verycareful.
"Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs or thistles? Matthew 7:15-16
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Post by guidemeLord on Aug 16, 2003 14:14:59 GMT -5
guidemelord, I believe your teachings on the Book of Revelation are false. You'd better be verycareful. "Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs or thistles? Matthew 7:15-16 One of my relatives once said to me.. What do you think of credit cards and Id's in a chip that goes under your skin. I said... "wow.. sounds like I will never lose my wallet again!" He looked at me like I was covered in manure. He said, "Well, what if that is the mark of the beast.." I replied that I don't believe the mark of the beast is future. Again the manure look... I asked him if he thought that eschatology was a doctrinal study.. in other words, does it affect my salvation if I hold the opposite view he does... He admitted that it didn't.. but he added "as long as you don't take the mark of the beast" I looked at him like he was covered in manure! Does this view of fulfilled prophecy affect my salvation? I strongly urge you to prove my interpretation wrong using scripture, historians, and your own intellect. BUT please don't assume (like my relative did) that your view is FACT when it is only Theory. Thanks
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Post by doody on Aug 16, 2003 14:41:36 GMT -5
Guidemelord, do you believe Jesus Christ is God's son, and that He is now in heaven in His glorified body ? Do you believe Jesus Christ was and is The Word made flesh ? Do you believe Jesus Christ is God ? Or do you believe He was an angel ? You are deceiving people about all kinds of things. How can you teach people about Jesus when you yourself don't believe He's God ?
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Post by guidemeLord on Aug 16, 2003 14:47:04 GMT -5
Guideme, you are a Preterist. The Preterist viewpoint has most or all of Matthew 24 being fulfilled in the disciples lifetime. First of all if his kingdom is now why does Daniel Chapter 2 have a clear prophecy of a future kingdom that is destroyed by a large stone that fills up the entire earth. I believe that the feet of the statue are a future kingdom that will produce the Antichrist, this kingdom will be destroyed by Christ and can be connected to Revelation 19:11. Daniel 2:44 44 "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands-a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. Revelation 19:11 11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[1] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Also this prophecy, which clearly shows that the men of the earth will see Christ return in great glory. Matthew 24 30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Also, take a look at what the angels say in Acts 1. Why would they say that he will return in the same way that he went up, obviously that means he will return to earth. Read it closely please. Acts 1 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." You are correct that we are to serve Christ while we are on the earth and to believers he is the reigning king. But, Satan has not been defeated at this time and the world is still under his influence. Hence, Jesus prophecy that the world would hate followers because of his name, until he comes back and defeats Satan and throws him into the lake of fire forever. These are future events. According to the scripture Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father until the seals of Revelation begin. Even if you do not believe in the rapture it does not change the coming prophecy of future events like the rise of the Son of Perdition, The two Witnesses and the Judgements of Revelation. I have just enough time to address your reference to Daniel 2. I believe that the ten toes refer to the time at which Rome collapsed into 10 different "states." This gives us a time indication. but the symbolism of the stone that breaks the statue( Breaks the WHOLE statue not just the toes) represents God's destruction of the old covenant and world leadership. God is the ruler over all and His mountain, Zion (the kingdom of God), is established throughout the earth. The Roman empire was split up and yet the mountain is still here. I don't see anything Future in Daniel 2. History is described beforehand in prophecy. To understand prophecy we have to check out history.
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Post by Heart4Him on Aug 16, 2003 15:52:36 GMT -5
I have just enough time to address your reference to Daniel 2. I believe that the ten toes refer to the time at which Rome collapsed into 10 different "states." This gives us a time indication. What 10 'states'? That doesn't fit history. A good site to reveiw the rise and breakdown of the Roman Empire is www.roman-empire.net/The problem with that is that King Nebuchadnezzer's statue had nothing to do with the old covenant. It was all about world empires. God sent Jesus to fulfill the old covenant, not to destroy His own decree. So the history should fit the prophecy...which seems to be a big problem with your ideas, because history does not fit a preterist viewpoint.
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Post by semperfidelis on Aug 16, 2003 17:11:13 GMT -5
So the history should fit the prophecy...which seems to be a big problem with your ideas, because history does not fit a preterist viewpoint. That is the major problem with the view. There is no possible way that the prophecy described in Revelation or in Daniel 2 (in reference to the feet) could have happened at any other time in history.
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Post by guidemeLord on Aug 17, 2003 0:01:31 GMT -5
What 10 'states'? That doesn't fit history. A good site to reveiw the rise and breakdown of the Roman Empire is www.roman-empire.net/The problem with that is that King Nebuchadnezzer's statue had nothing to do with the old covenant. It was all about world empires. God sent Jesus to fulfill the old covenant, not to destroy His own decree. So the history should fit the prophecy...which seems to be a big problem with your ideas, because history does not fit a preterist viewpoint. The feet are composed of an iron and clay mix representing "a kingdom that will be divided" (Daniel 2:41). That perfectly describes what happened with the Roman Empire: in the beginning it was "strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things" (Daniel 2:40). By the year 476 A.D. the Roman Empire had been broken up into exactly ten kingdoms. The historian Machiavelli, without the slightest reference to this prophecy, gives the following list of the nations which occupied the territory of the Western Empire at the time of the fall of Romulus Augustus (476 A.D.), the last emperor of Rome: the Lombards, the Franks, the Burgundians, the Ostrogoths, the Visigoths, the Vandals, the Heruli, the Suevi, the Huns, and the Saxons: ten in all. They have never since the breaking up of old Rome been united into one single empire; they have never formed one whole even like the United States. No scheme of proud ambition seeking to reunite the broken fragments has ever succeeded; when such have arisen, they have been invariably dashed to pieces." "And the division is as apparent now as ever. Plainly and palpably inscribed on the map of Europe this day, it confronts the skeptic with its silent but conclusive testimony to the fulfillment of this great prophecy." "The Divine Program of the World's History," by H. Grattan Guenness, pgs. 318-321. (As quoted in "Bible Readings For the Home," Review and Herald Publ. Assoc., London, MCMXLII, pgs 216,217). I think History speaks for itself. Daniel's prophecies are fulfilled.
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Post by guidemeLord on Aug 17, 2003 0:13:40 GMT -5
Guidemelord, do you believe Jesus Christ is God's son, Yes I believe Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ was Jehovah's one and Only son. Born of a virgin, died on a cross for the sin's of many, rose again on the third day, conquered satan, loosed the chains of those who had died before Christ, ascended up to heaven to sit at the right hand of God, sent down to the earth the Holy Spirit to show us all things, fulfilled the judgment of Israel's sin through the Roman Army (who the Jews made drink of the cup of wrath through the crucifiction of Jesus Christ), and finally became King of Kings and Lord of Lords once the temple worship was abolished and gave us eternal life and made us living temples of a royal priesthood for evermore to serve our King. and that He is now in heaven in His glorified body ? Yep Do you believe Jesus Christ was and is The Word made flesh ? Yep Do you believe Jesus Christ is God ? Or do you believe He was an angel ? Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully Man.. The firstfruit of the resurrection. You are deceiving people about all kinds of things. How so? How can you teach people about Jesus when you yourself don't believe He's God ? As I have shown and testified to.. I do believe Jesus is God. I worship the Living God in Jesus' redeeming name through the Holy Spirit's presence in my life! So what seems to be the problem?
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Post by doody on Aug 17, 2003 11:13:17 GMT -5
Well.......my problem now is, for starters.....everything you said beginning with; "fullfilled the judgement of Israel's sin through the Roman army....." etc.,etc.,etc..... HUH ?? Please explain in layman's terms. Oh, ya, you forgot to answer one little question. Do you think Jesus was an angel ? Specifically the archangel Michael ?
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Post by semperfidelis on Aug 17, 2003 11:37:11 GMT -5
Yes I believe Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ was Jehovah's one and Only son. Born of a virgin, died on a cross for the sin's of many, rose again on the third day, conquered satan, loosed the chains of those who had died before Christ, ascended up to heaven to sit at the right hand of God, sent down to the earth the Holy Spirit to show us all things, fulfilled the judgment of Israel's sin through the Roman Army (who the Jews made drink of the cup of wrath through the crucifiction of Jesus Christ), and finally became King of Kings and Lord of Lords once the temple worship was abolished and gave us eternal life and made us living temples of a royal priesthood for evermore to serve our King. Yep Yep Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully Man.. The firstfruit of the resurrection. How so? As I have shown and testified to.. I do believe Jesus is God. I worship the Living God in Jesus' redeeming name through the Holy Spirit's presence in my life! So what seems to be the problem? Guideme. I think you believe in Christ, I just think you hold a view that cannot possibly be true. Go through history and try to identify when the prophecies you say have already pkmtyolped happened. The seals in Revelation have not been broken, The Antichrist has not risen and Jesus has not returned. I agree that Jesus is Lord of Lords now but he is not exerting control over the world, he is not of this world, he rules a different kingdom and as believers we are part of it. Satan still has influence and control over the world and he will have some influence until he is cast into the pit and finally the lake of fire.
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Post by doody on Aug 17, 2003 12:08:35 GMT -5
semperfi.......AMEN, my brother. AMEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Blessings to you from the Lord.
And blessings and guidance from the Lord to guidemelord. I pray she get's just what her name asks for.
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Post by semperfidelis on Aug 21, 2003 9:23:55 GMT -5
semperfi.......AMEN, my brother. AMEN !!!!!!!!!!!!! Blessings to you from the Lord. And blessings and guidance from the Lord to guidemelord. I pray she get's just what her name asks for. Thanks for your kind words. Guidme is a little mislead by some incorrect teaching I think. Anyway, thanks for the encouragement.
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