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Post by Protestant on Jul 30, 2004 17:32:37 GMT -5
Or even better (from an 'outsider') - how could worshiping Christ ever be bad? It wont be worshipping Christ thats the whole point. It will be worshipping the beast and his image. It will involve a counterfeiting and violation of those commandments involving worship. ie the first 4 commandments that tell us how God wants to be worhipped. sunday is the beasts counterfeit sabbath
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Post by babysis on Jul 30, 2004 18:24:55 GMT -5
It wont be worshipping Christ thats the whole point. It will be worshipping the beast and his image. It will involve a counterfeiting and violation of those commandments involving worship. ie the first 4 commandments that tell us how God wants to be worhipped. sunday is the beasts counterfeit sabbath So people who go to church on any other day than Friday night/Saturday are not worshipping Christ when they go?
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Post by Pietro on Jul 31, 2004 15:26:08 GMT -5
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Post by Protestant on Jul 31, 2004 18:49:56 GMT -5
yes i've seen this letter. The first line quoted below in blue sets the gist of it. It's a blatent lie 1. The Lord's Day — as Sunday was called from Apostolic times (1) — has always been accorded special attention in the history of the Church because of its close connection with the very core of the Christian mysteryThe reference used for sunday being the 'Lord's day' is given here (1) Cf. Rev 1:10: "Kyriake heméra"; cf. also the Didaché 14, 1, Saint Ignatius of Antioch, To the Magnesians 9, 1-2; SC 10, 88-89. Sunday was NOT called "The Lord's day" from Apostolic times. The first genuine usage of the expression 'Lord's day' to refer to the pagan sunday was in 190 AD. The Didache14:1 And on the Lord's own daygather yourselves together and break bread and give thanks, first confessing your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.The didache, a sort of baptismal, organisational, or instructional manual, has been dated anywhere from the late first century to the late second century. The document seems to have originated in Syria. The statement in chapter 14 of interest here reads as follows. Kata kuriaken de kuriou sunaxthentes klasate arton kai euxaristesate – “On the Lord’s of the Lord [or, “According to the Lord’s of the Lord”] assemble, break bread, and hold Eucharist.” The word “day” (Greek hemeran, in the accusative case) does not actually appear in the text, but most translators have added it in their English translation, making the test read as follows: “On the Lord’s day….” Some students of the text would, however, suggest the rendition “According to the Lord’s commandment…” – also a possible translation of the original Greek. Samuele Bacchiocchi, following a rendition of John Baptiste Thibaut and supporting it with a rather impressive line of evidence, gives a similar translation: “According to the sovereign doctrine of the Lord” “ “The Sabbath in Scripture and History” Ed K. Strand. Review and Herald Pub Acc Washington 1982 p 347-348 Ignatius’ epistle to the Magnesians. Chapter 8-9 (Short Version)CHAPTER 8 “ 8:1 Be not seduced by strange doctrines nor by antiquated fables, which are profitless. For if even unto this day we live after the manner of Judaism, we avow that we have not received grace: 8:2 for the divine prophets lived after Christ Jesus. For this cause also they were persecuted, being inspired by His grace to the end that they which are disobedient might be fully persuaded that there is one God who manifested Himself through Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word that proceeded from silence, who in all things was well-pleasing unto Him that sent Him.
CHAPTER 9 9:1 If then those who had walked in ancient practices attained unto newness of hope, no longer observing Sabbaths but fashioning their lives after the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through Him and through His death which some men deny – a mystery whereby we attained unto belief, and for this cause we endure patiently, that we may be found disciples of Jesus Christ our only teacher -- 9:2 if this be so, how shall we be able to live apart from Him? seeing that even the prophets, being His disciples, were expecting Him as their teacher through the Spirit. And for this cause He whom they rightly awaited, when He came, raised them from the dead.” (from: _Apostolic Fathers_ Lightfoot & Harmer, 1891 translation) This pkmtyolpage is often used to prove that the early Christians just after the death of the apostles were Sunday observers. And that the expression “Lord’s day” refers to Sunday. However a careful reading of the pkmtyolpage shows no such thing. The above chapters written by Ignatius of Antioch are saying that the Old Testament prophets who lived and died before Jesus appeared had stopped observing the seventh-day Sabbath in the manner that the Jews kept it. They became observers of Sunday – the Lord’s day -- and were persecuted for it. And we will do the same if we are to be disciples of Jesus Christ. There are some problems with this. The most obvious is the fact that NO Old Testament prophet was a Sunday observer. Surely Ignatius would have known that. So that raises the question, why would Ignatius write something as absurd as the idea that the Old Testament prophets were Sunday observers? The answer is simple. He didn’t. The Greek word (hemera‘Day’) is NOT in the epistle. Ignatius did not say “Lord’s day”. The word “day” was added by the translators. The actual text as found in the earliest extant manuscript reads as follows “meketi sabbatizontes alla kata kuriaken zoen zontes.” The normal rendering of this expression (unless a cognitive accusative is intended) would be: “no longer sabbatizing, but living according to the Lord’s life”. “A distinguished patristic scholar, Robert A. Kraft, has provided the following translation of the original Ignatius of the early second century: - “If, then those who walked in the ancient customs [ie the aforementioned prophets] came to have a new hope, no longer ‘sabbatizing’ but living in accord with the Lord’s life- in which there sprang up also our life through him and through his death.” “The Sabbath in Scripture and History” Ed K. Strand. Review and Herald Pub Acc Washington 1982 p 348-349 “The fact that Ignatius urges Christians to stop “practicing Judaism” (Magnesians 8:1) or “living like Jews” (10:3) and to follow the example of the prophets in not Judaizing on the Sabbath, implies that many Christians were still following traditional Jewish customs, especially in the manner of Sabbath keeping.” “From Sabbath to Sunday” Samuele Bacchiocchi , The Pontifical Gregorian University press , Rome, 1977. p 216. In 1642 the great British scholar, Bishop James Ussher, published a Latin edition of what are now accepted as the genuine epistles of Ignatius. He used two newly discovered Latin manuscripts, which, in the disputed pkmtyolpage, read, “living according to the Lord’s.” Living according to the Lord’s what? Such constructions in Latin are no cause for concern, for the terse, elliptical form of the language permits the omission of a noun following an adjective, if that noun is used shortly thereafter. In the pkmtyolpage we have “living according to the Lord’s ___ in which also or life sprang up.” Supply the ellipsis with “life,” and the clause reads, “living according to the Lord’s life, in which also our life sprang up.” As a matter of fact, this latter wording is precisely what is found in the original Greek from which the Latin was translated. The Jacobson (1838) and Migne (1894) editions of this Greek manuscript so present it. Lightfoot (1889) omits the word “life” but admits that it occurs in the manuscript. In his 1647 Latin version, prepared after he had consulted the Greek manuscript, which became available in 1646, Ussher renders the pkmtyolpage, “juxta Dominicam vitam agentes,” “according to the Lord’s life living.” Protestant Dilemma”, Richard Lewis, Ph.D. Pacific Press Publishing Association California. 1961. pp 44-45.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Aug 3, 2004 11:15:32 GMT -5
Protestant,
Where is the "counterfeit Sabbath" mentioned in the Bible?
Christian.
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Post by babysis on Aug 3, 2004 12:54:38 GMT -5
So people who go to church on any other day than Friday night/Saturday are not worshipping Christ when they go? Hey Prot! You skipped my question.
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Post by HomeAtLast on Aug 4, 2004 1:31:01 GMT -5
It wont be worshipping Christ thats the whole point. It will be worshipping the beast and his image. It will involve a counterfeiting and violation of those commandments involving worship. ie the first 4 commandments that tell us how God wants to be worhipped. sunday is the beasts counterfeit sabbath Prot, I have been curious for a while now, what the typical itinerary for an SDA service is? Is the Bible read? How long does it last? Are there discussions other than the Bible? Thanx for satisfying my curiosity. Blessings, Ann
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Post by Protestant on Aug 6, 2004 18:30:38 GMT -5
Hey Prot! You skipped my question. In the last days when the image is set up and the one world religion is in force all will be commanded to observe sunday. When this happens and the truth of the sabbath is known then those who willingly keep the false sabbath will receive the mark and will be worshipping the beast and satan on sunday. you will find that all your questions are answered in my first post.
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Post by Protestant on Aug 6, 2004 18:36:20 GMT -5
Prot, I have been curious for a while now, what the typical itinerary for an SDA service is? Is the Bible read? How long does it last? Are there discussions other than the Bible? Thanx for satisfying my curiosity. Blessings, Ann There is sabbath school in the morning much the same as sunday school where the lesson is studied. The main service begins at 11am and usually goes for an hour. 3 hymns are sung and a sermon is preached form the bible. Some preachers are better than others. Every quarter the Lord's supper is done. Yeastless bread and grape juice to remember the Lord's death until he returns. Foot washing is also done are per the direction of the Lord.
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Post by babysis on Aug 6, 2004 18:47:04 GMT -5
In the last days when the image is set up and the one world religion is in force all will be commanded to observe sunday. When this happens and the truth of the sabbath is known then those who willingly keep the false sabbath will receive the mark and will be worshipping the beast and satan on sunday. you will find that all your questions are answered in my first post. So as long as the anti-christ isn't requiring people to go to church on Sunday (like now when the anti-christ isn't in power) then it is not a sin to worship on Sunday?
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Post by Protestant on Aug 6, 2004 19:00:46 GMT -5
So as long as the anti-christ isn't requiring people to go to church on Sunday (like now when the anti-christ isn't in power) then it is not a sin to worship on Sunday? The antichrist/Pope is requiring people to go to church on sunday now. The RCC catechism even tell catholics to lobby the governements to make sunday a legal day of rest. Read my first post again 2188. "In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on SUNDAY, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this 'festal gathering,' this 'assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven.'[Heb 12:22-23 .]"
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Post by babysis on Aug 6, 2004 20:14:40 GMT -5
The antichrist/Pope is requiring people to go to church on sunday now. The RCC catechism even tell catholics to lobby the governements to make sunday a legal day of rest. Read my first post again 2188. "In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on SUNDAY, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this 'festal gathering,' this 'assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven.'[Heb 12:22-23 .]"Okay... so this ONE GUY, the antichrist is actually the Pope who has been many different guys throughout the past 1500 or so years that that position has been around?? I guess another question I have is if the office of the pope is the antichrist and the antichrist comes to power during the end times have we been in the end times since the office of the pope has been around??
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Post by Protestant on Aug 6, 2004 20:47:52 GMT -5
Okay... so this ONE GUY, the antichrist is actually the Pope who has been many different guys throughout the past 1500 or so years that that position has been around?? I guess another question I have is if the office of the pope is the antichrist and the antichrist comes to power during the end times have we been in the end times since the office of the pope has been around?? Check out this link www.maranathamedia.com.au/index.htmDownload the article under the heading below in blue. It is halfway down the home page on the left hand side under the title "Top Essays and Sermons". They are my studies on the antichrist. They will answer all your questions. The Little Horn, Antichrist and the Mark - M. Forfar
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Post by HomeAtLast on Aug 7, 2004 0:41:08 GMT -5
The antichrist/Pope is requiring people to go to church on sunday now. The RCC catechism even tell catholics to lobby the governements to make sunday a legal day of rest. Read my first post again 2188. "In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on SUNDAY, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this 'festal gathering,' this 'assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven.'[Heb 12:22-23 .]"Prot, Ironically, I attend pkmtyolm on Saturday afternoon every week, yet the same pkmtyolm readings are on Saturday as on Sunday. Go figure. BTW, where exactly in the your quote does it say that we are told to lobby the government about Sunday? I missed that one and my parish priests have definitely neglected the entire congregation on that one. Blessings, Ann
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Post by HomeAtLast on Aug 7, 2004 0:43:04 GMT -5
There is sabbath school in the morning much the same as sunday school where the lesson is studied. The main service begins at 11am and usually goes for an hour. 3 hymns are sung and a sermon is preached form the bible. Some preachers are better than others. Every quarter the Lord's supper is done. Yeastless bread and grape juice to remember the Lord's death until he returns. Foot washing is also done are per the direction of the Lord. Thank you so much for informing me of your typical service. I do appreciate it. What exactly do you mean by "lesson"? Blessings, Ann
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