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Post by LauraJean on Jul 13, 2004 10:18:03 GMT -5
From the LCMS web site: "Since Jesus has come as our Savior and Lord, God no longer requires us to observe any one particular day for worship (whether Saturday, Sunday, or some other day; see Col. 2:16-17; Rom. 14:5-6; Gal. 4:8-11). Scripture does, of course, stress the importance of corporate worship (Acts 2:42, 46; Heb. 10:25), and the first Christians chose Sunday as their regular day of worship because it was the day on which Jesus rose from the dead (Luke 24:1-2; Acts 20:7).
With very few exceptions (e.g., the Seventh Day Adventist Church), the entire Christian church (not just the Lutheran church) has continued this tradition of worshipping on Sunday, recognizing that worshipping on Sunday (or any other specific day) is not required by God, but that it is helpful for the sake of good order and in remembrance of Christ's resurrection.
Those who insist that Christians must worship on one particular day of the week are in danger doing what God commands us not to do in Col. 2:16-17 and Rom. 14:5-6: judging other Christians in an area where God has given Christian freedom."
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Post by Protestant on Jul 14, 2004 2:35:14 GMT -5
From the LCMS web site: The bible says otherwise. Hebrews 4:9-10 “There remains, then, a Sabbath – rest (Sabbatismos) for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest {i.e. salvation} also rests from his own work, just as God did from His.” Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest {salvation}, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.” (NIV) The Greek word translated Sabbath-rest is Sabbatismos and it refers to a physical keeping of the Sabbath. So if I accept salvation ie enter into God’s salvation rest. I will also rest from my own work just as God did from his. And how did God rest as an example to us? Hebrews 4:4 “…And on the seventh day God rested from all His work.”All the ceremonial Sabbaths are done away because they have met their fulfilment in Christ. But the seventh day Sabbath of the Ten Commandments is specifically mentioned as being one that ‘remains’. We who enter God’s rest ie salvation, are also to keep the physical rest of the Sabbath. We are to cease from our own works just as God did from His. That rest is specifically said to be a physical rest on the seventh day. There are 2 rests mentioned here: the physical Sabbath rest [Sabbatismos] and the spiritual rest of salvation. Ancient Israel were Sabbath keepers but they did not enter that spiritual rest. We are told that Christians have a keeping of a Sabbath that remains. i.e. Physical rest on the 7th day just as the ancient Israel had. And like them we are to ‘make every effort’ to enter the spiritual rest that they didn’t enter into due to disobedience Hebrews 4:9 explicitly states that a sabbatismos, that is, a seventh day Sabbathkeeping remains for God's people. The latest research of this text done by Sundaykeeping scholars at Cambridge University and published in the symposium From Sabbath to the Lord's Day, acknowledges that sabbatismos is used in Christian and secular literature to denote the literal observance of the Sabbath. These verses do not teach that the sabbath is abolished. i have repeatedly answered these verses. Gal4:8-11 is about pagan days Rom 14:5-6 is about fast days Col 2:16-17 is about ceremonies that pointed to Christ. This is heresy. Sunday observance originated in Rome about 135 AD when Emporer Hadrian outlawed the Jewish religion and sabbath keeping. Sunday observance did not originate with the apostles. It was never a part of the early church. Acts 20:7 is a farewell address by Paul on a saturday night. actually there are over 400 sabbath keeping groups around the world. SDA are only one of them. Christians are now realising that sunday worship is unbiblical. Yes and that is all it is. An unbiblical tradition God has NOT given us freedom to disregard His laws.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Jul 14, 2004 22:02:03 GMT -5
The Greek word translated Sabbath-rest is Sabbatismos and it refers to a physical keeping of the Sabbath. Would you cite your source for this information (that "it refers to a physical keeping of the Sabbath")?
TB
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Post by genesda on Jul 21, 2004 6:31:58 GMT -5
Would you cite your source for this information (that "it refers to a physical keeping of the Sabbath")?
TBHow else would you keep the sabbath except for physically keeping it? Does thinking about keeping it mean you've kept it as God requires? Talk about not seeing the forest because of the trees. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Jul 21, 2004 6:40:40 GMT -5
From the LCMS web site: "Since Jesus has come as our Savior and Lord, God no longer requires us to observe any one particular day for worship (whether Saturday, Sunday, or some other day; see Col. 2:16-17; Rom. 14:5-6; Gal. 4:8-11). Why don't you show a clear exsample (teaching) of the sabbath being changed? One may worship on any day of the week, but there is no scripture that says the sabbath has bee changed. None of the verses you referenced refers to the sabbath of the commandment. [/color] Scripture does, of course, stress the importance of corporate worship (Acts 2:42, 46; Heb. 10:25), and the first Christians chose Sunday as their regular day of worship because it was the day on which Jesus rose from the dead (Luke 24:1-2; Acts 20:7). This is a foolish assumption with no scriptural basis and is a false tradition only. Your mother church made the change and admits doing so without any scriptural call to do so. [/color] With very few exceptions (e.g., the Seventh Day Adventist Church), the entire Christian church (not just the Lutheran church) has continued this tradition of worshipping on Sunday, recognizing that worshipping on Sunday (or any other specific day) is not required by God, but that it is helpful for the sake of good order and in remembrance of Christ's resurrection. Nice speech, but sorry, no truth here. I'm glad you admit that you're simply following a church tradition, but it a grave error to state that you are doing God's will by breaking one of His commandments that He said to "REMEMBER". [/color] Those who insist that Christians must worship on one particular day of the week are in danger doing what God commands us not to do in Col. 2:16-17 and Rom. 14:5-6: judging other Christians in an area where God has given Christian freedom." i'M NOT JUDGING YOU AT ALL. yOU ARE FREE TO DO WHATEVER YOU WISH, BUT i AM WARNING YOU OF YOUR ERROR, WHICH THE SCRIPTURES DO SAY IS MY JOB. ( caps not intended). Col.2:16 or the other references you posted do not speak of the commandment speak and the reasons have been posted that prove this.
Answer this: Are there other sabbath days besides the commandment sabbath? [/color]
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Post by LauraJean on Jul 21, 2004 8:15:34 GMT -5
Good golly, I almost missed this: Acts 20:7 is a farewell address by Paul on a saturday night. AC 20:7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people.... I thought you guys said Sunday was the first day? Blessings, LJ
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Post by LauraJean on Jul 21, 2004 8:20:18 GMT -5
Col.2:16 or the other references you posted do not speak of the commandment speak and the reasons have been posted that prove this. [/b][/color][/quote] When the SDA response to Scripture is "It doesn't mean what it says" you'll have to forgive me for being a little skeptical about SDA claims of following the Bible. Blessings, LJ P.S. Will you or Prot have time to answer my question on the "scaring demons" thread? Thanks!!
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Post by genesda on Jul 21, 2004 8:54:23 GMT -5
Good golly, I almost missed this: AC 20:7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people.... I thought you guys said Sunday was the first day? Blessings, LJ Sunday is the first day of the week. God's time is sunset to sunset, not midnight to midnight. Acts 20:7 doesn't say anything about a change either. I'm sure Paul preached everyday at every opportunity, not just on the sabbath. There seems to be much confusion about prayer, preaching, attending church meetings and keeping the sabbath holy. Just because you attend church on the Sunday doesn't mean you're keeping God's sabbath day holy. Besides, a day is one complete rotation of the sun, not an hour or two in a church building. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Jul 21, 2004 9:01:01 GMT -5
When the SDA response to Scripture is "It doesn't mean what it says" you'll have to forgive me for being a little skeptical about SDA claims of following the Bible. Blessings, LJ The bible does mean what it says. It's your refusal to UNDERSTAND is where the problem is. Answer these two questions:
Are there other sabbath days in the bible besides the commandment, and
what makwes you think it is the commandment that is referred to in Col.2:16? [/color] P.S. Will you or Prot have time to answer my question on the "scaring demons" thread? Thanks!! sure will, right now. [/color]
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Post by Protestant on Jul 22, 2004 3:19:53 GMT -5
Good golly, I almost missed this: AC 20:7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people.... I thought you guys said Sunday was the first day? Blessings, LJ Acts 20:7-14 7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight. 8There were many lamps in the upper room where they were gathered together. 9And in a window sat a certain young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep. He was overcome by sleep; and as Paul continued speaking, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead. 10But Paul went down, fell on him, and embracing him said, "Do not trouble yourselves, for his life is in him." 11Now when he had come up, had broken bread and eaten, and talked a long while, even till daybreak, he departed. 12And they brought the young man in alive, and they were not a little comforted. 13 Then we went ahead to the ship and sailed to Assos, there intending to take Paul on board; for so he had given orders, intending himself to go on foot. 14And when he met us at Assos, we took him on board and came to Mitylene.
First day of the week at night time. If you read the pkmtyolpage you will see that the meeting is a night meeting on the first day of the week i.e., "Saturday night" according to Jewish time reckoning. Paul preached all Saturday night and on Sunday morning he walked 20 miles to Assos to board a ship. He hardly kept Sunday sacred. The purpose of this Saturday night meeting was to farewell Paul as he was to depart on Sunday. They came to break bread meaning that they were gathering to eat dinner. It does not mean they were partaking of the Lord's supper. This verse describes a one off meeting to farewell Paul it does not describe a formula for a weekly service. Breaking bread The expression “breaking bread” in the bible means to eat dinner. Acts 2:46 “So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart.” It seems obvious that the meeting is not a regular Sunday church service. It is not even on a Sunday. It was just a farewell dinner for Paul as he was going the next day. This incident was recorded because it contained a miraculous incident with the raising of the Eutychus who fell from the third floor.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Jul 29, 2004 9:08:43 GMT -5
Protestant,
How can worshipping Christ on Sunday be unbiblical when the first Christians met up to worship Him on the first day of the week (Sunday)?
Christian.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 29, 2004 16:00:33 GMT -5
Protestant, How can worshipping Christ on Sunday be unbiblical when the first Christians met up to worship Him on the first day of the week (Sunday)? Christian. They didnt! No christian worshipped on sunday in the bible. Try finding a verse in scripture where sunday was the day of worship.
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Post by kingsdaughter on Jul 30, 2004 12:06:01 GMT -5
From the LCMS web site: The bible says otherwise. Hebrews 4:9-10 “There remains, then, a Sabbath – rest (Sabbatismos) for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest {i.e. salvation} also rests from his own work, just as God did from His.” Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest {salvation}, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.” (NIV) The Greek word translated Sabbath-rest is Sabbatismos and it refers to a physical keeping of the Sabbath. So if I accept salvation ie enter into God’s salvation rest. I will also rest from my own work just as God did from his. And how did God rest as an example to us? Hebrews 4:4 “…And on the seventh day God rested from all His work.”All the ceremonial Sabbaths are done away because they have met their fulfilment in Christ. But the seventh day Sabbath of the Ten Commandments is specifically mentioned as being one that ‘remains’. We who enter God’s rest ie salvation, are also to keep the physical rest of the Sabbath. We are to cease from our own works just as God did from His. That rest is specifically said to be a physical rest on the seventh day. There are 2 rests mentioned here: the physical Sabbath rest [Sabbatismos] and the spiritual rest of salvation. Ancient Israel were Sabbath keepers but they did not enter that spiritual rest. We are told that Christians have a keeping of a Sabbath that remains. i.e. Physical rest on the 7th day just as the ancient Israel had. And like them we are to ‘make every effort’ to enter the spiritual rest that they didn’t enter into due to disobedience Hebrews 4:9 explicitly states that a sabbatismos, that is, a seventh day Sabbathkeeping remains for God's people. The latest research of this text done by Sundaykeeping scholars at Cambridge University and published in the symposium From Sabbath to the Lord's Day, acknowledges that sabbatismos is used in Christian and secular literature to denote the literal observance of the Sabbath. These verses do not teach that the sabbath is abolished. i have repeatedly answered these verses. Gal4:8-11 is about pagan days Rom 14:5-6 is about fast days Col 2:16-17 is about ceremonies that pointed to Christ. This is heresy. Sunday observance originated in Rome about 135 AD when Emporer Hadrian outlawed the Jewish religion and sabbath keeping. Sunday observance did not originate with the apostles. It was never a part of the early church. Acts 20:7 is a farewell address by Paul on a saturday night. actually there are over 400 sabbath keeping groups around the world. SDA are only one of them. Christians are now realising that sunday worship is unbiblical. Yes and that is all it is. An unbiblical tradition God has NOT given us freedom to disregard His laws. No God has not given us freedom to disregard his laws, but he has given us freedom to follow our hearts. Lu 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves befor MEN; but God knoweth your HEARTS; for that which is highly esteemed among MEN is abomination in the sight of God.
1th 2:4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak: not as pleasing MEN, but God, which trieth our HEARTS.
the antichrist will establish a false religion anyone who worships the beast or his image will have broken the 1st commandment and will be doomed. The mark is strictly for purposes of buying and selling only. What day we worship is a non issue it is what is in our hearts that matters to God . You can go to church every saturday but if your heart is not Gods you are still lost. You are judgin people by their actions fortunately God does not. ysic Pam
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Post by MorningStar on Jul 30, 2004 12:14:52 GMT -5
Protestant, How can worshipping Christ on Sunday be unbiblical when the first Christians met up to worship Him on the first day of the week (Sunday)? Christian. Or even better (from an 'outsider') - how could worshiping Christ ever be bad?
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Post by Protestant on Jul 30, 2004 17:29:12 GMT -5
The antichrist has already extablished a false religion. Its called Roman Catholicism. the office of Pope is the antichrist. All 4 commandments involving worship are counterfeited not just the first commandment. Revelation 12-14 emphasizes that “in the final crisis the commandments of God will emerge as the standard of loyalty” and obedience. The end-time saints having the divine seal are characterized as those who “keep the commandments of God” (Rev. 12:17; 14:12). The mark of the beast thus seems to be a substitution of obedience to the beast for obedience to God. It appears that the first four commandments of the Decalogue, in particular (“You shall have no other gods before Me”; “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth,” in order to worship them; “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain”; and remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy”), will become the test of loyalty to God in the final crisis. These four commandments concern one’s relationship with God and worship. According to Revelation 12-14, the issue in the final crisis centres on the relationship with God and proper worship. The two groups at the time of the end are identified as those who worship God verses those who worship the dragon and the beast (Rev 14:7; cf.13:8, 12-15). This explains why the sea beast’s end time activities are described as well-planned attacks on these four commandments. The beast’s demand for worship, something that is reserved for God alone (13:4,8), is a direct attack on the first commandment: “You shall have no other God’s before me.” The raising up of an image to be worshipped (13:14-15), is a direct violation of the second commandment, and the blasphemy of God attacks the third commandment. (13:5-6). The demand for receiving the mark of the beast indicates a direct attack on the fourth, the Sabbath commandment.” Revelation 13-14 says that it is an issue. If you observe sunday instead of God's own appointed day then you have a heart of rebellion.
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