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Post by Cohdra on Apr 23, 2004 0:57:37 GMT -5
Protestants attack the Catholic Church by saying there is no need of a Pope. Well, they should look in their own back yard first, because each Protestant acts as his or her own pope. There are millions of "popes" in Protestantism, and all of them are running around claiming that their personal opinion regarding the interpretation of Scripture is the truth. Are there really millions of truths? I thought Holy Scripture said there was only one truth.
Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, lamented as he said these things after he had seen the damage that individual interpretation of Holy Scripture had done to his movement,
"This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet."
De Wette III, 61. quoted in O'Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208. www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3975/errprot.htmGod bless (Please pardon the typo in the threads title)
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Post by Cohdra on Apr 23, 2004 1:17:58 GMT -5
3- "Free interpretation" of the Bible:
This third principle of Protestantism is the "free interpretation of the Bible": Every individual has the right to read the Bible, and interpret it in his own way, according to his own conscience, without interference from any authority.
- It sounds good, as my own right to freedom... but it is most anti-biblical: In no place the Bible talks about the "free private interpretation of the Bible", rather, the Bible itself says exactly the opposite: "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation" (2Pet.1:20), in the New Revised Standard Version; the Revised English Bible says, "But first note this: no prophetic writing is a matter for private interpretation".
- If the "free private interpretation" were true, not only the Protestants would have the right to it, but also every Catholic!... so, every Catholic would be as right as any Protestant to live the Bible as he sees it... assertion denied by most Protestants I know!...
... But it is not true, the Bible has not been made for "free private interpretation"!... The Bible is a most glorious country full of wonderful treasures... but we need a "guide", like in any other unknown country... the Church who gave us the Bible, has also the right and very serious duty to guide us, to interpret for us every treasure, and she is the only one who has that authority, given to her by Jesus in person (Matt.16:19, 18:18).
- In the Catholic Church this serious responsibility is exercised by the Pope, and the Councils under the Pope, following the power given by Jesus in Matt.16:19 and 18:18...
- In the Protestant Reform, nobody has this authority... and this is the reason why so many contradictions go unchecked in the Protestant Churches, without anyone guiding the faithful in what is the truth or the error... Some churches say Jesus is God, others say he is not; some say the Holy Spirit is God, others say he is not; some say abortion is bad, others say it is good; some say, "only faith", others say, "only love"; some say, there is Hell, others say, there is not; some say polygamy is prohibited in the Bible, others say it is permitted; some say, go to church to be saved, others say, you don't need a church, only Jesus...
... And so on and on, 1,001 contradictions!, all of them based in what the Bible says, with nobody in the Protestant Reform with authority to guide the faithful... the Bible can't say both "Jesus is God", and "Jesus is not God"; can't say both, "abortion is good", and "abortion is bad"... What is the truth?... what the Bible says?...
- The "free-private interpretation of the Bible" is the most absurd and foolish principle of Protestantism: If you believe salvation is by faith, you are right; but if you believe it is by good works, you are also right under the same private interpretation principle... a thief, a liar, a murderer, would say they are so, because they interpret the Bible telling them to be so... simply absurd!...
God bless religion-cults.com/Christianity/Protestant/Branch-C-Protestant.htm#Free%20interpretation"%20of%20the%20Bible
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Post by Archangelwolf on Apr 23, 2004 1:28:42 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 2:11-16
"No one can know what anyone else is really thinking except that person alone, and no one can know God's thoughts except God's own Spirit. And God has actually given us His Spirit (not the world's spirit) so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us. When we tell you this, we do not use words of human wisdom. We speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths. But people who aren't Christians can not understand these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means. We who have the Spirit understand these things, but others can not understand us at all. How could they? For who can know what the Lord is thinking? Who can give Him counsel? But we can understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ."
If Christians believe the Holy Spirit of God inspires men and women to WRITE scripture, then why is it so hard to believe that the Holy Spirit of God inspires men and women to INTERPRET scripture?
The Holy Spirit is our direct link-up to the mind of Christ. Without the Spirit of God, we are as the blind leading the blind.
God bless,
Arch.
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Post by Nicodemus on Apr 23, 2004 2:34:06 GMT -5
By submitting to the absolutely supremacy and authority of the Holy Scriptures as the only rule and guide for our faith and our practice; as well as by surrendering to the inescapable necessity of placing your total faith and belief in the shed blood of Jesus Christ ALONE and being saved, and by trusting in the efficacious ability and everlasting presence of the indwelling Holy Spirit of God to speak to our hearts through the Word as provided us in the completed canon of Scripture.
THIS is the only infallible plan that God has given to us for approaching His Holy Word.
Anything less is to live with an evil heart of unbelief, and just as the children of Israel - their carpkmtyolces littered the wilderness, having never entered the promised land.
Anything less is to acknowledge the divinity of self and to make God irrelevant.
Remember, you asked.
Thus, my response would negate all three of the proposed suggestions.
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Post by genesda on Apr 23, 2004 4:54:01 GMT -5
Protestants attack the Catholic Church by saying there is no need of a Pope. Well, they should look in their own back yard first, because each Protestant acts as his or her own pope. There are millions of "popes" in Protestantism, and all of them are running around claiming that their personal opinion regarding the interpretation of Scripture is the truth. Are there really millions of truths? I thought Holy Scripture said there was only one truth.
Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, lamented as he said these things after he had seen the damage that individual interpretation of Holy Scripture had done to his movement,
"This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet."
De Wette III, 61. quoted in O'Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208. That's why the bible should be it's own interpretor. It is fully capable of explaining itself. [/color] |
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Post by HomeAtLast on Apr 23, 2004 12:12:05 GMT -5
Protestants attack the Catholic Church by saying there is no need of a Pope. Well, they should look in their own back yard first, because each Protestant acts as his or her own pope. There are millions of "popes" in Protestantism, and all of them are running around claiming that their personal opinion regarding the interpretation of Scripture is the truth. Are there really millions of truths? I thought Holy Scripture said there was only one truth.
Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, lamented as he said these things after he had seen the damage that individual interpretation of Holy Scripture had done to his movement,
"This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet."
De Wette III, 61. quoted in O'Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208. That's why the bible should be it's own interpretor. It is fully capable of explaining itself. [/color][/quote] gene, How interesting that you should say this, yet urge me to read the SDA interpretation of Daniel and Revelation and accept it. Would't that be not practicing what you preach here? Blessings, Ann |
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Post by HomeAtLast on Apr 23, 2004 12:14:42 GMT -5
I voted "other". I read the bible and make sure that the doctrines of the church are compatible with the Bible.
Blessings,
Ann
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Post by keikikoka on Apr 23, 2004 14:11:43 GMT -5
All the believers in Christ are the church. Lets substitute this phrase where you put the word church(and pronouns) and maybe you will see what protestants see.
... But it is not true, the Bible has not been made for "free private interpretation"!... The Bible is a most glorious country full of wonderful treasures... but we need a "guide", like in any other unknown country... All the believers in Christ who gave us the Bible, they have also the right and very serious duty to guide us, to interpret for us every treasure, and all the believers in Christ are the only ones who has that authority, given to her by Jesus in person (Matt.16:19, 18:18).
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Post by masarap on Apr 23, 2004 14:14:58 GMT -5
Amen Ann, I am glad to hear that!!!!!
God HIMSELF is our teacher
Psalms 32:8-10 "I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you and watch over you."
We are given a COUNSELOR!!!!
(John 14:26 ) "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you".
HIS WORD guides us
(Psalms 119:105 "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path."
He has given us an "annointing that teaches"(1 John 2:27 ) "As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.
Every believer is a priest in Christ and we are called to offer spiritual sacrifices.
You also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2:5 But you are … a royal priesthood … that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 1 Peter 2:9
Peter also tells us that every believer is a "Royal Priesthood, a chosen generation, a holy nation and Gods special people"!!!!
We have no need of a Pope because Jesus is our High Priest in the order of Melchizedek!!! a better priesthood then could ever come from man..
Hebrews 7:14.says For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.
15. And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek,
16. who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life.
17. For it is witnessed of Him, "Thou art a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek."
To have "levels" of a hierarchy is fleshly and Pharisetical... Jesus establishes a different way...
Matt 20:24-28 says
20:24 When the ten heard it, they were angry with the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. 26 It will not be so among you; but whoever wishes to be great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you must be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many."
Now that we know we are a "royal priesthood, a holy nation,, a chosen generation, GODS special people, lets act like it!!! ;D We are not chickens but Eagles!!!
Blessings!!, Masarap
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Post by FaithOfAMustardSeed on Apr 24, 2004 8:06:21 GMT -5
The Catholic Church did not give us the Scriptures. The Catholic Church is and always has been made up of mere humans with faith in Christ. However, it was the Holy Spirit that inspired men to put down into words the Scriptures.
The New Testament Scriptures are the words of Jesus Christ and the Apostles. They started the Church based on these teachings -- on the scriptures. The scriptures came first. Collections of some NT Scriptures began circulating well before an official canon was formed in the late 4th century by the Catholic Church.
As for needing a member of the Catholic Clergy to explain the meaning of scriptures to me, ...
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
2 Peter 1:20-21 NASB
As promised by Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit lives in me. The Holy Spirit teaches me and guides me as I read the Bible. The Catholic Church claims this leads to many different interpretations. Catholics should look back to their own history. "The Fathers" had various opinions on what scriptures meant. Councils after councils have met in the last 2000 years to determine and redetermine the meaning of Scripture. It's not like the Catholic Church has been this big happy, unified family ever since started.
FOAMS
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Post by TarueBeliever on Apr 24, 2004 14:35:36 GMT -5
If I were to seek guidance from another human concerning the meaning of the Scriptures, I wouldn't seek it from the priests and bishops of the Catholic Church. They've been trained by their predecessors to twist the Scriptures to fit Catholic Dogma. Allow me to prove my point by examining three verses of Scripture, John 1:14, Acts 6:8, and Luke 1:28. I present below these three verses from the Protestant New American Standard Bible (NASB), the Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible (DRB), and the transliterated Byzantine-"Majority" Greek New Testament (B-M GNT).
In John 1:14 and Acts 6:8, I've bold-faced the phrase "full of grace." Note that in Greek, "full of grace" is "plê'rês cha'ritos." However, in Luke 1:28, "plê'rês cha'ritos" doesn't appear. Instead, the word "kecharitôme'nê" appears. The Catholics insist on translating this as the title "Full of Grace." But this is incorrect. The title "Full of Grace" in Greek would be "peplerome'nê cha'ritos" -- "She who has been filled with grace." The word "kecharitôme'nê" means "She who has been shown grace or favored."
By interpreting Luke 1:28 their way, Catholics have used this verse to support the false doctrine of a pure, sinless Mary nearly equal to Christ Jesus in her ability to bring comfort and salvation to sinners and almost as deserving as the Lord of our admiration and praise.
No, the Catholic Church clergy have proven they are not the true interpreters of Scripture. They pick and choose verses they like, pull them out of context, and twist their meaning to fit the dogma of the Popes. I trust the Holy Spirit alone.
Scott
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 (NASB)
And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 (DRB)
Kai' ho lo'gos sa'rx ege'neto kai' eskê'nôsen en hê'min , kai' etheasa'metha tê'n do'xan autou' , do'xan hôs monogenou's para' patro's , plê'rês cha'ritos kai' alêthei'as.
John 1:14 (B-M GNT)
And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.
Acts 6:8 (NASB)
And Stephen, full of grace and fortitude, did great wonders and signs among the people.
Acts 6:8 (DRB)
Ste'phanos de' plê'rês cha'ritos kai' duna'meôs epoi'ei te'rata kai' sêmei'a mega'la en tô'i laô'i .
Acts 6:8 (B-M GNT)
And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."
Luke 1:28 (NASB)
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Luke 1:28 (DRB)
Kai' eiselthô'n ho a'ggelos pro's autê'n ei'pen , Chai're , kecharitôme'nê , ho ku'rios meta' sou' . eulogême'nê su' en gunaixi'n .
Luke 1:28 (B-M GNT)
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Post by Pietro on Apr 24, 2004 15:24:00 GMT -5
The Catholics insist on translating this as the title "Full of Grace."
[/color] Sorry to disagree but in the two most common Catholic translations: New American Bible translates "favored one" and the Jerusalem Bible, "so highly favored". They are not as insistent as you would lead us to believe so go pick on someone else. |
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Post by TarueBeliever on Apr 24, 2004 20:14:39 GMT -5
TarueBeliever, April 24 at 15:35:The Catholics insist on translating this as the title "Full of Grace."
Pietro, April 24 at 16:24: Sorry to disagree but in the two most common Catholic translations: New American Bible translates "favored one" and the Jerusalem Bible, "so highly favored". They are not as insistent as you would lead us to believe so go pick on someone else.
While these translations have the correct words, Catholic Dogma Dogma holds firmly to the old, false translation of "Full of Grace."
When Pope John Paul II addressed the Plenary Assembly of the Pontifical Commission for Social Communications on March 3, 1988, he quoted Luke 1:28 as "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!"
In the prayer of Pope for the Solemnity of the Imaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary on December 8, 1998, he again quoted Luke 1:28 as "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!"
In his sermon after this prayer, the Pope said ...
"As we heard in the Gospel of St Luke, “the divine messenger says to the Virgin: ‘Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!’” . The angel’s greeting puts Mary at the very heart of the mystery of Christ, for the Incarnation of the eternal Son, a gift of God for all humanity, is accomplished in her who is “full of grace”
in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the words of Luke 1:28 are always phrased as "full of grace," never as "favored one" (see CCC 1.2.1.2.3.2.490, 1.2.1.3.8.4.722, and 4.1.2.2.2676). The same is true of the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 56.
The Catholic Church may have published a version of the Bible with words "favored one” in it, but the the Catholic Church still sees the meaning as "full of grace." That is the current doctrine of the Catholic Church as seen in the Catechism, Lumen Gentium 56, and the prayers of the Pope. With its doctrine that the Catholic Church is the interpreter of the meaning, one can see the Catholic Church didn’t mean in its publication of the American Standard Bible for its members to change in their minds the meaning of Luke 1:28. The Vatican hasn’t rewritten the Catechism to reflect a change of opinion, has it? The Vatican hasn’t rewritten Lumen Gentium 56 to say, "Oops, we’re sorry, Mary wasn’t full of grace after all. Guess she was a sinner." For the Catholic Church to publish a Bible that says one thing yet continue to dogmatically teach another as it does only further proves my point – the Catholic Church knows what it teaches about Mary is false. Yet it continues to teach the falsehood. How can you continue to declare that the Catholic Church is the only true interpreter the scriptures?
Scott
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Post by Pietro on Apr 25, 2004 10:09:49 GMT -5
TarueBeliever, April 24 at 15:35:The Catholics insist on translating this as the title "Full of Grace."Pietro, April 24 at 16:24: Sorry to disagree but in the two most common Catholic translations: New American Bible translates "favored one" and the Jerusalem Bible, "so highly favored". They are not as insistent as you would lead us to believe so go pick on someone else. While these translations have the correct words, Catholic Dogma Dogma holds firmly to the old, false translation of "Full of Grace."
When Pope John Paul II addressed the Plenary Assembly of the Pontifical Commission for Social Communications on March 3, 1988, he quoted Luke 1:28 as "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!"
In the prayer of Pope for the Solemnity of the Imaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary on December 8, 1998, he again quoted Luke 1:28 as "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!"
In his sermon after this prayer, the Pope said ..."As we heard in the Gospel of St Luke, “the divine messenger says to the Virgin: ‘Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!’” . The angel’s greeting puts Mary at the very heart of the mystery of Christ, for the Incarnation of the eternal Son, a gift of God for all humanity, is accomplished in her who is “full of grace”in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the words of Luke 1:28 are always phrased as "full of grace," never as "favored one" (see CCC 1.2.1.2.3.2.490, 1.2.1.3.8.4.722, and 4.1.2.2.2676). The same is true of the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 56.
The Catholic Church may have published a version of the Bible with words "favored one” in it, but the the Catholic Church still sees the meaning as "full of grace." That is the current doctrine of the Catholic Church as seen in the Catechism, Lumen Gentium 56, and the prayers of the Pope. With its doctrine that the Catholic Church is the interpreter of the meaning, one can see the Catholic Church didn’t mean in its publication of the American Standard Bible for its members to change in their minds the meaning of Luke 1:28. The Vatican hasn’t rewritten the Catechism to reflect a change of opinion, has it? The Vatican hasn’t rewritten Lumen Gentium 56 to say, "Oops, we’re sorry, Mary wasn’t full of grace after all. Guess she was a sinner." For the Catholic Church to publish a Bible that says one thing yet continue to dogmatically teach another as it does only further proves my point – the Catholic Church knows what it teaches about Mary is false. Yet it continues to teach the falsehood. How can you continue to declare that the Catholic Church is the only true interpreter the scriptures?
Scott
[/b][/color][/quote] You are shifting arguments pretending they are the same argument. You initial argument was: "The Catholics insist on translating this as the title "Full of Grace." I proved it wrong by providing two major translations that do no such thing. At least concede that. You shift to another argument based on catechism, and church dogma. There I will concede that the Church has and still does teach that the Blessed Mother was enriched by God with special grace to give free assent of her faith to her unique vocation. "She who has been shown grace or favored" becomes "blessed among women", full of grace. I'm not sure why that is such a sharp issue for you since grace is defined: Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin gratia favor, charm, thanks, from gratus pleasing, grateful; akin to Sanskrit grnAti he praises 1 a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace 2 a : APPROVAL, FAVOR <stayed in his good graces> b archaic : MERCY, PARDON c : a special favor : PRIVILEGE <each in his place, by right, not grace, shall rule his heritage -- Rudyard Kipling> d : disposition to or an act or instance of kindness, courtesy, or clemency e : a temporary exemption : REPRIEVE 3 a : a charming or attractive trait or characteristic b : a pleasingly graceful appearance or effect : CHARM c : ease and suppleness of movement or bearing 4 -- used as a title of address or reference for a duke, a duchess, or an archbishop 5 : a short prayer at a meal asking a blessing or giving thanks 6 plural, capitalized : three sister goddesses in Greek mythology who are the givers of charm and beauty 7 : a musical trill, turn, or appoggiatura 8 a : sense of propriety or right <had the grace not to run for elective office -- Calvin Trillin> b : the quality or state of being considerate or thoughtful We are most likely referring to 1,2,3. I'm not sure why you have such a problem acknowledging Mary's grace. Evidently it is the "fullness" that you take exception to because it is not "Biblical' in your mind because it is not the most literal translation of the text. We are all guilty of picking and choosing verses we like or don't like otherwise we would all be turning the other cheek and eating the body and blood of Christ. |
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Post by TarueBeliever on Apr 25, 2004 16:43:33 GMT -5
I'm not shifting arguments. Take a look at those Catholic Church documents I referenced ...
CCC 1.2.1.2.3.2.490: To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role." 132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace". 133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace.
132 Lumen Gentium 56
133 Luke 1:28
CCC 1.2.1.3.8.4.722: The Holy Spirit prepared Mary by his grace. It was fitting that the mother of him in whom "the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" 102 should herself be "full of grace." She was, by sheer grace, conceived without sin as the most humble of creatures, the most capable of welcoming the inexpressible gift of the Almighty. It was quite correct for the angel Gabriel to greet her as the "Daughter of Zion": "Rejoice." 103 It is the thanksgiving of the whole People of God, and thus of the Church, which Mary in her canticle 104 lifts up to the Father in the Holy Spirit while carrying within her the eternal Son.
102 Colossians 2:9
103 Cf. Zephaniah 3:14; Zechariah 2:14
104 Cf. Luke 1:46-55
CCC 4.1.2.2.2676: This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria:
Hail Mary [or Rejoice, Mary]: the greeting of the angel Gabriel opens this prayer. It is God himself who, through his angel as intermediary, greets Mary. Our prayer dares to take up this greeting to Mary with the regard God had for the lowliness of his humble servant and to exult in the joy he finds in her. 30
Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee: These two phrases of the angel's greeting shed light on one another. Mary is full of grace because the Lord is with her. The grace with which she is filled is the presence of him who is the source of all grace. "Rejoice . . . O Daughter of Jerusalem . . . the Lord your God is in your midst." 31 Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the ark of the covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is "the dwelling of God . . . with men." 32 full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world.
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. After the angel's greeting, we make Elizabeth's greeting our own. "Filled with the Holy Spirit," Elizabeth is the first in the long succession of generations who have called Mary "blessed." 33 "Blessed is she who believed. . . . " 34 Mary is "blessed among women" because she believed in the fulfillment of the Lord's word. Abraham. because of his faith, became a blessing for all the nations of the earth. 35 Mary, because of her faith, became the mother of believers, through whom all nations of the earth receive him who is God's own blessing: Jesus, the "fruit of thy womb."
30 Cf. Luke 1:48; Zephaniah 3:17b.
31 Zephaniah 3:14,17a.
32 Revelations 21:3.
33 Luke 1:41, 48
34 Luke 1:45
35 Cf. Genesis 12:3
Lumen Gentium 56: The Father of mercies willed that the incarnation should be preceded by the acceptance of her who was predestined to be the mother of His Son, so that just as a woman contributed to death, so also a woman should contribute to life. That is true in outstanding fashion of the mother of Jesus, who gave to the world Him who is Life itself and who renews all things, and who was enriched by God with the gifts which befit such a role. It is no wonder therefore that the usage prevailed among the Fathers whereby they called the mother of God entirely holy and free from all stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature. (5*) Adorned from the first instant of her conception with the radiance of an entirely unique holiness, the Virgin of Nazareth is greeted, on God's command, by an angel messenger as "full of grace", (286) and to the heavenly messenger she replies: "Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to thy word". (287) Thus Mary, a daughter of Adam, consenting to the divine Word, became the mother of Jesus, the one and only Mediator. Embracing God's salvific will with a full heart and impeded by no sin, she devoted herself totally as a handmaid of the Lord to the person and work of her Son, under Him and with Him, by the grace of almighty God, serving the mystery of redemption. Rightly therefore the holy Fathers see her as used by God not merely in a pkmtyolpive way, but as freely cooperating in the work of human salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St. Irenaeus says, she "being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." (6*) Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert in their preaching, "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience; what the virgin Eve bound through her unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosened by her faith." (7*) Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her "the Mother of the living," (8*) and still more often they say: "death through Eve, life through Mary." (9*)
(286) Cf. Luke 1:28
(287) Luke 1:38
(5*) Cfr. S. Germanus Const., Nom. in annunt. Deiparae: PG 98, 328 A; In Dorm. 2: col. 357. Anastasius Antioch., Serm. 2 de Annunt., 2: PG 89, 1377 AB; Serm. 3, 2: col. 1388 C. S. Andrcas Cret. Can. in B. V. Nat. 4: PG 97, 1321 B. In B. V. Nat., 1: col. 812 A. Hom. in dorm. 1: col. 1068 C. - S. Sophronius, Or. 2 in Annunt., 18: PG 87 (3), 3237 BD.
(6*) S. Irenaeus, Adv. Hacr. III, 22, 4: PG 7, 9S9 A; Harvey, 2, 123.
(7*) S. Irenaeus, ib.; Harvey, 2, 124.
(8*) S. Epiphanius, Nacr. 78, 18: PG 42, 728 CD; 729 AB.
(9*) S. Hieronymus, Epist. 22, 21: PL 22, 408. Cfr. S. Augwtinus, Serm. Sl, 2, 3: PL 38, 33S; Serm. 232, 2: col. 1108. - S. Cyrillus Hieros., Catech. 12, 15: PG 33, 741 AB. - S. Io. Chrysostomus, In Ps. 44, 7: PG SS, 193. - S. Io. Damasccnus, Nom. 2 in dorm. B.M.V., 3: PG 96, 728.
You can see that the Catholic Church in its doctrine still translates the Greek word "kecharitôme'nê" in Luke 1:28 as "full of grace." You know it's from Luke 1:28 because that verse is either directly referenced by footnote or indirectly referenced as the "angel's greeting."
Your dictionary definition of "grace" is irrelevant in this discussion. The Catholic Church has its own particular meaning for the word "grace." In fact it has two. According the Catholics there is "actual (active) grace" and there is "sanctifying grace." "Actual grace" would be any blessing God has bestowed on us to show us that he love us in order to prepare us for salvation. The gifts of the spirit, our food, the earth itself ... these are actual graces. On the other hand, "sanctifying grace" is that quality which is infused into us that cleanses and allows for salvation. This not a very complete definition, but the complete definition would take up pages and is very confusing for me. It was "sanctifying grace" that the Catholic Church claims Mary was full of.
You call the Jerusalem Bible and the American Standard Bible "major translations." Note that permission to use the Jerusalem Bible at pkmtyolm was withdrawn by the Holy See in 2002.
The American Standard Bible editions of 1970 and 1986 don't say "full of grace." I'll conceed that." However American Bishops thought the 1970 edition was too "paraphrasic" and asked that it be retranslated. The new edition was finished in 1986. The Vatican was unhappy with the language of this version. In 1997, Pope John Paul II gave translators strict instructions that Catholic doctrines must be taken into account when deciding on the phrasing of the Scriptures. A preliminary translation was released in 1998. This version is the one now used in lectionaries. The phrase "full of grace" is back. But you can't yet buy a Bible that matches what you might hear at pkmtyolm.
My point is this -- the Catholic Church knows at the highest levels that a simple phrase ought to be translated one way. However, the Pope insists that Church doctrine, founded in the opinions of men who lived hundreds of years after Mary died, should guide translators. They should ignore the actual words that Luke himself, inspired by the Holy Spirit, set dow and translate the words incorrectly to satisfy the Church. This is why I don't trust the interpretations and teachings of the Catholic Church.
Scott
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