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Post by genesda on Apr 26, 2004 5:49:32 GMT -5
gene, How interesting that you should say this, yet urge me to read the SDA interpretation of Daniel and Revelation and accept it. Would't that be not practicing what you preach here? Blessings, Ann No, not at all. We have the correct interpretations of Daniel and Revelation BECAUSE we let the bible interpret itself. Once the correct understanding is derived, it needs to be put out for all to see and learn. [/color]
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Post by RealistState on Apr 26, 2004 5:55:36 GMT -5
gene, How interesting that you should say this, yet urge me to read the SDA interpretation of Daniel and Revelation and accept it. Would't that be not practicing what you preach here? Blessings, Ann No, not at all. We have the correct interpretations of Daniel and Revelation BECAUSE we let the bible interpret itself. Once the correct understanding is derived, it needs to be put out for all to see and learn. [/color][/quote] The interesting part of your statement is your use of the word "we". Just about any denomination can insert themselves there, and make the same claim. I see where Ann was coming from with her question. In order to be a true SDA, you have to accept THIER interpretation of scripture.
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Post by genesda on Apr 26, 2004 5:56:11 GMT -5
[/color] Sorry to disagree but in the two most common Catholic translations: New American Bible translates "favored one" and the Jerusalem Bible, "so highly favored". They are not as insistent as you would lead us to believe so go pick on someone else. "Hail Mary, full of grace....etc" You Rc's insist that the rosary is scriptural and also insist that "full of grace" is scriptural, even though you personally may not. You will get arguments from your own peers on this one. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 26, 2004 6:03:24 GMT -5
[quote author=TarueBeliever
My point is this -- the Catholic Church knows at the highest levels that a simple phrase ought to be translated one way. However, the Pope insists that Church doctrine, founded in the opinions of men who lived hundreds of years after Mary died, should guide translators. They should ignore the actual words that Luke himself, inspired by the Holy Spirit, set dow and translate the words incorrectly to satisfy the Church. This is why I don't trust the interpretations and teachings of the Catholic Church.
I have to agree, especially since I believe the Rcc is the little horn of Daniel 7 and the first beast of Revelation 13. [/color]
Scott[/color][/quote]
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Post by Pietro on Apr 28, 2004 12:53:28 GMT -5
My point is this -- the Catholic Church knows at the highest levels that a simple phrase ought to be translated one way. However, the Pope insists that Church doctrine, founded in the opinions of men who lived hundreds of years after Mary died, should guide translators. They should ignore the actual words that Luke himself, inspired by the Holy Spirit, set dow and translate the words incorrectly to satisfy the Church. This is why I don't trust the interpretations and teachings of the Catholic Church.
ScottThen who do you trust besides yourself and your own interpretation?
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Post by TarueBeliever on Apr 28, 2004 14:58:26 GMT -5
Then who do you trust besides yourself and your own interpretation? That's a "leading question." It's not my "own interpretation." The Apostle Peter wrote ...But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. 2 Peter 1:20-21 New American Standard Bible ( NASB) The word "prophecy" comes from the common Greek word "prophêteia" meaning "the gift of interpreting the intent of the gods." The Holy Spirit interprets God's intent in the Scriptures for me. The Apostle John wrote that Christ Jesus said ...But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.John 14:26 NASBBut when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.John 16:13 NASB When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.John 16:26-27 NASBJesus said the Holy Spirit would teach us all things, guide us to all truth, and testify to us about Jesus. He never said the Church would do these things.
I trust the teachings and interpretations of no man. I thank the Lord for the power of the Holy Spirit to make clear the Scriptures He gave us to lead us to Him and his free gift of salvation.
Scott
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Post by Cohdra on Apr 28, 2004 19:00:16 GMT -5
That's a "leading question." It's not my "own interpretation." The Apostle Peter wrote ...But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. 2 Peter 1:20-21 New American Standard Bible ( NASB) The word "prophecy" comes from the common Greek word "prophêteia" meaning "the gift of interpreting the intent of the gods." The Holy Spirit interprets God's intent in the Scriptures for me. The Apostle John wrote that Christ Jesus said ...But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.John 14:26 NASBBut when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.John 16:13 NASB When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.John 16:26-27 NASBJesus said the Holy Spirit would teach us all things, guide us to all truth, and testify to us about Jesus. He never said the Church would do these things.
I trust the teachings and interpretations of no man. I thank the Lord for the power of the Holy Spirit to make clear the Scriptures He gave us to lead us to Him and his free gift of salvation.
Scott A point of clarification. Most of the quotes from scripture that you posted were spoken only to Christ's inner circle....Just as the Holy Spirit descended on a select few. I think this point needs to be brought up. non-RC and non-Orthodox seem to apply all powers and gifts granted to all Christians, rather than a select group. Each time Christ imbued the disciples with a different talent, it was only them.....where are you interpreting that he meant all? It isn't scriptural. There were many times he preached to the pkmtyolmes, but at no time did He grant them special gifts or abilities, only His disciples. Apparently, these things could be pkmtyolped on by a disciple to another...it never states anywhere in scripture that these gifts were pkmtyolped on to everybody. I remember one incident in the Bible (after the resurrection) where some Christians (just like you and me) could not heal or cast a demon out (can't remember which), and they had to get Peter. If they were like Peter, then why did they need him to do it for them? They (as Protestantism believes) were just like him, but could not do it on their own. There is a real problem of interpretation here. Non-RC / non-Orthodox christianity has totally messed this up. You have taken everything that Christ granted to his disciples and applied it to every run-of-the mill Christian......Sheep need shepherds......the leadership and gifts that go with it were quite clearly pkmtyolped from one selected individual to another......they are the shepherds and we are the sheep...... I'm not arrogant to number myself among the apostles.....hand-picked by the heavenly Father...I'm not arrogant enough to number myself among the leaders selected by the apostles.... Christ gave us the apostles...the apostles gave us new disciples to lead us, and so on and so on....Christ set it in motion, and it has continued.... God bless
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Post by keikikoka on Apr 28, 2004 20:36:15 GMT -5
Cohdra... Where in the New Testament does Jesus(or anyone for that matter) make a distinction of how the holy spirit will work in people?
This is another thing that I find interesting. You say that only the disciples had this "gift" (I use quotes because the bible never calls it a gift or ability) of interpreting from the holy spirit, and it can only be pkmtyolped to other disciples. This leads me to wonder, who are the next disciples?
Jesus says in Matthew 28 "19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Apparently all the converted people of the world are to be made disciples of Christ. The entire Christian world is made of disciples. It isn't just the clergy that have this particular "gift" of the holy spirit, it is the entire Christian body.
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Post by Cohdra on Apr 29, 2004 4:08:52 GMT -5
Cohdra... Where in the New Testament does Jesus(or anyone for that matter) make a distinction of how the holy spirit will work in people? This is another thing that I find interesting. You say that only the disciples had this "gift" (I use quotes because the bible never calls it a gift or ability) of interpreting from the holy spirit, and it can only be pkmtyolped to other disciples. This leads me to wonder, who are the next disciples? Jesus says in Matthew 28 "19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Apparently all the converted people of the world are to be made disciples of Christ. The entire Christian world is made of disciples. It isn't just the clergy that have this particular "gift" of the holy spirit, it is the entire Christian body. You didn't address any of the points I made, and instead commented on something that wasn't even discussed in my post. I never said that all Christians do not receive the Holy Spirit, I never even mentioned the Holy Spirit. I fully realize that Christians are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There were several points in Christ's ministry where he granted the disciples specific gifts...not the pkmtyolmes. He told the disciples why he spoke in parables...only the disciples were permitted to "know" what he was preaching. The disciples were singled out in a variety of different ways. Your not addressing the issue here; I fear your dodging the issue. God bless
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Post by genesda on Apr 29, 2004 4:41:26 GMT -5
The interesting part of your statement is your use of the word "we". Just about any denomination can insert themselves there, and make the same claim. I see where Ann was coming from with her question. In order to be a true SDA, you have to accept THIER interpretation of scripture. I'm here any time you'd like to compare interpretations of prophecy. Not only can it be shown why SDA's have the correct interpretation of prophecy, but it can be shown why OTHERS are wrong! [/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 29, 2004 4:54:24 GMT -5
A point of clarification. Most of the quotes from scripture that you posted were spoken only to Christ's inner circle....Just as the Holy Spirit descended on a select few. I think this point needs to be brought up. non-RC and non-Orthodox seem to apply all powers and gifts granted to all Christians, rather than a select group. Each time Christ imbued the disciples with a different talent, it was only them.....where are you interpreting that he meant all? It isn't scriptural. Are you trying to say that the holy spirit only came to the ones the scriptures mentions? That can't be true because the holy spirit wouldn't be here today then. I think I know where you're going with this, but the scriptures also makes no mention of "successors" either. In any case, you're wrong on this one. [/color] There were many times he preached to the pkmtyolmes, but at no time did He grant them special gifts or abilities, only His disciples. The disciples were to spread what they were taught by Jesus and they also were to write what Jesus taught so others could teach God's word to the coming generations. [/color] Apparently, these things could be pkmtyolped on by a disciple to another...it never states anywhere in scripture that these gifts were pkmtyolped on to everybody. Acts 5:32 says the holy spirit comes to those who obey Him. Obedience to the hoply spirit is the qualifier. [/color] I remember one incident in the Bible (after the resurrection) where some Christians (just like you and me) could not heal or cast a demon out (can't remember which), and they had to get Peter. If they were like Peter, then why did they need him to do it for them? Peter? What about Paul, James, John etc? [/color] They (as Protestantism believes) were just like him, but could not do it on their own. There is a real problem of interpretation here. Not really, it's your understanding that's the problem. [/color] Non-RC / non-Orthodox christianity has totally messed this up. You have taken everything that Christ granted to his disciples and applied it to every run-of-the mill Christian......Sheep need shepherds......the leadership and gifts that go with it were quite clearly pkmtyolped from one selected individual to another......they are the shepherds and we are the sheep...... I'm not arrogant to number myself among the apostles.....hand-picked by the heavenly Father...I'm not arrogant enough to number myself among the leaders selected by the apostles.... Christ gave us the apostles...the apostles gave us new disciples to lead us, and so on and so on....Christ set it in motion, and it has continued.... Wrong. The bible says to study for yourself to show yourself approved. Some do need "shepards", but even the Bereans didn't take Paul at his word. They studied the scriptures daily to see if what he was saying was in accordance with them. They were called "more noble" than the rest because of their studies. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 29, 2004 4:58:18 GMT -5
You didn't address any of the points I made, and instead commented on something that wasn't even discussed in my post. I never said that all Christians do not receive the Holy Spirit, I never even mentioned the Holy Spirit. I fully realize that Christians are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There were several points in Christ's ministry where he granted the disciples specific gifts...not the pkmtyolmes. He told the disciples why he spoke in parables...only the disciples were permitted to "know" what he was preaching. The disciples were singled out in a variety of different ways. Your not addressing the issue here; I fear your dodging the issue. I understand what he was saying and he did answer the points you made. It's your mental block that doesn't allow you to see what he was saying. Jesus DIDN'T appoint a special group to understand the scriptures. That is only a Rc belief and the "magestarium" uses it's own private interpretations which are opposed to the scriptures as Taru showed so well in his post. [/color]
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Post by Pietro on Apr 29, 2004 8:13:42 GMT -5
I trust the teachings and interpretations of no man. I thank the Lord for the power of the Holy Spirit to make clear the Scriptures He gave us to lead us to Him and his free gift of salvation. Scott You are a man also just as capable as any other man of misunderstadning the Holy Spirit. BTW:"kecharitôme'nê" was never intended to be read as a scientific analysis. It is a figure of speech whether traslated "full of Grace (favor)" or "highly favored (graced)". So take a chill pill.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Apr 29, 2004 10:39:18 GMT -5
You are a man also just as capable as any other man of misunderstadning the Holy Spirit. BTW:"kecharitôme'nê" was never intended to be read as a scientific analysis. It is a figure of speech whether traslated "full of Grace (favor)" or "highly favored (graced)". So take a chill pill. Yet it is the matter of "fullness" on which the Catholic Church begins to build the doctrine of a sinless Mary. The Catholic Church doesn't consider it a figure of speech. The Catholic Church considers it a declaration by God through the angel that she was so full of sanctifying grace that no sin could enter into her. The exact interpretation is important to Catholic Doctrine. So important, that the wording was changed in 1998 in the litugical copies of the New American Bible used by the priests at pkmtyolm from "Hail, favored one!" to "Hail, full of grace!" at the specific instruction of Pope John Paul II.
Scott
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Post by TarueBeliever on Apr 29, 2004 10:56:04 GMT -5
A point of clarification. Most of the quotes from scripture that you posted were spoken only to Christ's inner circle....Just as the Holy Spirit descended on a select few. I think this point needs to be brought up. non-RC and non-Orthodox seem to apply all powers and gifts granted to all Christians, rather than a select group. Each time Christ imbued the disciples with a different talent, it was only them.....where are you interpreting that he meant all? It isn't scriptural. There were many times he preached to the pkmtyolmes, but at no time did He grant them special gifts or abilities, only His disciples. Apparently, these things could be pkmtyolped on by a disciple to another ... it never states anywhere in scripture that these gifts were pkmtyolped on to everybody. I remember one incident in the Bible (after the resurrection) where some Christians (just like you and me) could not heal or cast a demon out (can't remember which), and they had to get Peter. If they were like Peter, then why did they need him to do it for them? They (as Protestantism believes) were just like him, but could not do it on their own. There is a real problem of interpretation here. Non-RC / non-Orthodox christianity has totally messed this up. You have taken everything that Christ granted to his disciples and applied it to every run-of-the mill Christian......Sheep need shepherds......the leadership and gifts that go with it were quite clearly pkmtyolped from one selected individual to another......they are the shepherds and we are the sheep...... I'm not arrogant to number myself among the apostles.....hand-picked by the heavenly Father...I'm not arrogant enough to number myself among the leaders selected by the apostles.... Christ gave us the apostles...the apostles gave us new disciples to lead us, and so on and so on....Christ set it in motion, and it has continued.... God bless Yet when Christ was speaking specifically to his mother and to the Apostle John ...When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son." Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. John 19:26-27 (NAB) ... the Catholic Church somehow stretches this to mean that Jesus was saying Mary is the mother of all Christians. Seems the Catholic Church is a bit choosy about which verses apply to all Christians and which apply just to the Apostle and their supposed "successors."
Scott
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