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Post by keikikoka on Apr 29, 2004 14:56:44 GMT -5
I'm not dodging the issue, because I don't really know what point you are trying to make. I was under the impression that you believed the disciples(and their appointed succesers) have the gift of interpretation through the holy spirit.
I was making the point that all "run-of-the mill" Christians are disciples, as Matthew 28 says. Christ never set up a church heirarchy of the Pope, cardinals, archbishops, bishops, preists, with a teaching magisterium.
The bible talks about the ones teaching and the ones learning. All are disciples of Christ in varying ages of spiritual maturity.
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Post by FaithOfAMustardSeed on Apr 29, 2004 16:07:56 GMT -5
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. 7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 (NASB)
The Holy Spirit gives "gifts" to "run-of-the-mill" Christians. Not just to those appointed by the Pope and his bishops. The Holy Spirit determines who gets what gift, not the Catholic Church.
FOAMS
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Post by genesda on Apr 30, 2004 4:33:58 GMT -5
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.1 Corinthians 12:1-11 ( NASB) The Holy Spirit gives "gifts" to "run-of-the-mill" Christians. Not just to those appointed by the Pope and his bishops. The Holy Spirit determines who gets what gift, not the Catholic Church.
FOAMSYes, according to ACTS 5:32, THE HOLY SPIRIT COMES TO THOSE WHO OBEY HIM. [/color]
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Post by TarueBeliever on Apr 30, 2004 13:40:31 GMT -5
Gene,
The Bible wasn't written in verses. You shouldn't pull single verses out of context to attempt to prove your doctrine. That verse comes from this pkmtyolpage ...
27 When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them, 28 saying, "We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us." 29 But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men. 30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. 31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him." Acts 5:27-32 (NASB)
Peter was talking about obeying God instead of obeying the Godless men of the Sanhedrin. Jesus Christ promised the Holy Spirit to all those who believe in Him.
Jesus himself said …
15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. John 14:15-17 (NASB)
In the original koi'nê Greek, John 14:15 reads …
Ea'n agapate' me , ta's entola's ta's ema's têrê'sete :
Translating each word from Greek to English ...
Ea'n [ea'n] (conjunction) if so ever agapate' [agapa'ô] (verb 2nd person plural present active subjunctive) <youpl> might love me [egô'] (pronoun personal-possessive 1st person singular accusitive) me , [,] (punctuation) , ta's entola's [entolê'] (noun accusitive plural feminine) the commands ta's ema's [emo's] (adjective accusitive plural feminine) {the} mine têrê'sete [têre'ô] (verb 2nd person plural future active indicative) <youpl> will obey : [:] (punctuation) ;
My "rough" translation is ...
if so ever | <youpl> might love | me | , | the commands | {the} mine | <youpl> will obey | ;
A somewhat better translation ...
if so ever youpl might love me, youpl will obey my commands;
One shouldn't read this verse backwards. It doesn’t mean "If you keep my commands, then you really love me." It means "Because you do love me, you will most likely keep my commands in the future."
In common Greek, this sentence structure is a probable future condition. It is expressed by ea'n with a subjunctive verb in the "if clause" and any form needed in the "then clause." It expresses that which is not really taking place but which probably will take place in the future. That is, you are not now obeying my commands, but it is probable that you will obey my commands on the condition that you love me.
Also, the commands Jesus spoke of were not those given to the Israelites at Mount Sinai. Jesus didn’t say, "ta's entola's moi" meaning "my commands." Nor did He say, "ta's entola's e'moi" meaning "my commands." He said, "ta's entola's ta's ema's" meaning "My own commands."
I would interpret the meaning of the verse as "Because you do love Me, you will most likely keep My own commands in the future."
While Jesus was here on earth, He gave us his own command ...
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. John 13:34 (NASB)
Scott
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Post by Archangelwolf on May 1, 2004 1:02:31 GMT -5
The Roman Catholic Church acts as an elitist fraternity comparable with the Freemasons. According to the RC, ordinary people can not understand anything that God teaches them; so only a few elite members of society, with higher education and pedigrees, can lead the pkmtyolmes.
This seems to make some sense. In fact, America was founded by men that believed this way. (ie. Alexander Hamilton). However, it is not scriptural and a lie from the very lips of Satan.
Nothing can separate us from our Lord; not even education and intelligence. Yes, God is beyond human comprehension; however, each of us is given understanding of certain parts, so as to edify the whole of God's church.
I have found most disturbing the complex lives of some very devout RC followers in my experience. They are discouraged from questioning anything they are brought up to believe. Sometimes they do things for the church without even knowing its relevance. They have been brought up since childhood not to question. The church keeps them in ignorance, and critical thinking is prohibited. It is horrifying. I could not imagine living this way.
Arch.
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Post by Pancho on May 2, 2004 0:03:26 GMT -5
I voted "other". I read the bible and make sure that the doctrines of the church are compatible with the Bible. Blessings, Ann
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Post by Pancho on May 2, 2004 0:47:54 GMT -5
The only thing is that you are not to express your personal opinions about the bible, If they veer away from traditional dorctrine. I you do, then you become a rebel. You become branded in your church and people are warned to stay away from you as if you were a contatious germ. I have studied the bible under various denominations. Including the Jehovahs Witness don't shine me off just because you heard this. I concluded that they all teach variations of the same traditional doctrines. I was so disappointed at all the lies and conflicts bet- ween all these churches that I desided to go rouge, solo. To my surprise I found that all churches are inst- ruments of the Devil. Religion has give power to God, rather then God has given religion power. Who did the Israelites worshiped when they killed the prophets? God? Who did the Jews worshiped when they killed Jesus? God? Who did Paul worshiped when he held the clothes of Steven before he was stoned to death? God? The truth is, they worshiped religion, not God. THE TRUTH. Pontious Pilate was face to face with the truth in the flesh. When He asked Jesus "Who are you?" Jesus replied "I've come to give testimony of the TRUTH" Pilate asked retorically "What is the truth". Then just walked away. Picture this- Pilates view of the truth (Jesus). Bloodied, dirty, dragged, bruised, spat upon, humiliated. Why would he want any part of it. The truth today is the bible. What the bible says is not what the church teaches. The church controlls the pkmtyolmes. If you break free from that control, you become an outcast. If the Jews believed in the Messiah, they were cast out from the synaguoges. Many out of fear of being outcasts chose to turn their backs on Christ. Do we follow the pkmtyolmes or do we follow Christ even though we don't fit in the system of organized religion?
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Post by genesda on May 3, 2004 4:53:44 GMT -5
[quote author=TarueBeliever
One shouldn't read this verse backwards. It doesn’t mean "If you keep my commands, then you really love me." It means "Because you do love me, you will most likely keep my commands in the future." Scott
So when Jesus said, if you love Me, keep my commands", He actuially meant "most likely"?
I guess John didn't unsderstand His words either because of he said in 1 John 2:3-6, and 1 John 3: 18-24, 1 John 5:2-4
I admire your ability to understand the Greek and the way you post scriptures, but you seem to want to rely on each scripture you translate and overlook the whole picture. I'll never believe Jesus meant "most likely" because to disobey the commandments is transgression of the law which is sin. Jesus didn't die to save us IN our sins, but FROM our sins. Jesus expects all His saved to obey God's commandments. he has said so, even though some deny this. [/color]
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Post by genesda on May 3, 2004 4:58:34 GMT -5
[quote author=TarueBeliever
While Jesus was here on earth, He gave us his own command ...[/color]
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. John 13:34 (NASB)
Scott
Some bad news for you Scott, Jesus gave us the tablets BEFORE He was on the Earth, and the "new " command wasn't new at all. It was an O.T. command as well.
(Deu 6:5 KJV) And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
(Lev 19:18 KJV) Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
I posted these two verses to attempt to show that when Christ repeated them to the people in the time that He lived, that these are actually NOT new commandments, but were only new to their ears. Some here have attempted to say that these were new commandments because the word “neighbor” didn’t mean the same thing in the O.T. as Christ said it meant in the N.T. in the “good Samaritan” parable. Actually this was still the O.T. times when Christ spoke these words because the N. T. didn’t begin until His death, and the new covenant was ratified by His blood. Christ’s sacrifice is what sealed the terms of the New Covenant, or the New Testament. [/color]
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Post by genesda on May 3, 2004 5:05:15 GMT -5
[quote author=Pancho The truth today is the bible. What the bible says is not what the church teaches. The church controlls the pkmtyolmes. If you break free from that control, you become an outcast.
Which church are you referring to? Maybe you've not yet come to the truth and that's why you say what you do. [/color]
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Post by HomeAtLast on May 3, 2004 9:57:28 GMT -5
The only thing is that you are not to express your personal opinions about the bible, If they veer away from traditional dorctrine. I you do, then you become a rebel. You become branded in your church and people are warned to stay away from you as if you were a contatious germ. I have studied the bible under various denominations. Including the Jehovahs Witness don't shine me off just because you heard this. I concluded that they all teach variations of the same traditional doctrines. I was so disappointed at all the lies and conflicts bet- ween all these churches that I desided to go rouge, solo. To my surprise I found that all churches are inst- ruments of the Devil. Religion has give power to God, rather then God has given religion power. Who did the Israelites worshiped when they killed the prophets? God? Who did the Jews worshiped when they killed Jesus? God? Who did Paul worshiped when he held the clothes of Steven before he was stoned to death? God? The truth is, they worshiped religion, not God. THE TRUTH. Pontious Pilate was face to face with the truth in the flesh. When He asked Jesus "Who are you?" Jesus replied "I've come to give testimony of the TRUTH" Pilate asked retorically "What is the truth". Then just walked away. Picture this- Pilates view of the truth (Jesus). Bloodied, dirty, dragged, bruised, spat upon, humiliated. Why would he want any part of it. The truth today is the bible. What the bible says is not what the church teaches. The church controlls the pkmtyolmes. If you break free from that control, you become an outcast. If the Jews believed in the Messiah, they were cast out from the synaguoges. Many out of fear of being outcasts chose to turn their backs on Christ. Do we follow the pkmtyolmes or do we follow Christ even though we don't fit in the system of organized religion? Pancho, I must disagree with you, of course. In fact your opinion makes no sense at all to me. If you talk to different RC people you will get different opinions on whatever the subject is. At every pkmtyolm we are encouraged to read the bible. You seem to be forgetting that people are people, no matter what church they attend. I have never seen anyone shunned because they disagreed with any traditional doctrine. I have never seen anyone shunned for any opinion at all in the RCC. However I have been shunned because I am RCC, mainly on this board. Once when I was in a "Christian Book" Store and asked a woman who worked there where the Catholic Bibles were located, she glared at me, briskly said "We are all out" and turned and quickly walked away. I am sorry that you feel that the RC people do not worship God, but that is completely wrong and makes no sense either. Once again, As Bishop Fulton Sheen said: "There are not 100 people who hate the Catholic Church, but there are thousands who hate what they believe the Catholic Church to be." Blessings, Ann
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Post by HomeAtLast on May 3, 2004 10:00:36 GMT -5
The Roman Catholic Church acts as an elitist fraternity comparable with the Freemasons. According to the RC, ordinary people can not understand anything that God teaches them; so only a few elite members of society, with higher education and pedigrees, can lead the pkmtyolmes. This seems to make some sense. In fact, America was founded by men that believed this way. (ie. Alexander Hamilton). However, it is not scriptural and a lie from the very lips of Satan. Nothing can separate us from our Lord; not even education and intelligence. Yes, God is beyond human comprehension; however, each of us is given understanding of certain parts, so as to edify the whole of God's church. I have found most disturbing the complex lives of some very devout RC followers in my experience. They are discouraged from questioning anything they are brought up to believe. Sometimes they do things for the church without even knowing its relevance. They have been brought up since childhood not to question. The church keeps them in ignorance, and critical thinking is prohibited. It is horrifying. I could not imagine living this way. Arch. Arch, That is not at all the case. Every thing has relevance in the pkmtyolm. Please see the quote from Bishop Fulton Sheen that I posted to Pancho. Blessings, Ann
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Post by HomeAtLast on May 3, 2004 10:11:46 GMT -5
St Clement wrote the Corinthians:
Why, then are there strifes, tumults, divisions, schisms, and wars among you? Have we not one God and one Christ? Is there not one Spirit of grace poured out upon us? And have we not one calling in Christ? Why do we divide and tear to pieces the members of Christ, and raise up strife against our own body and have reached such a height of madness as to forget that "we are members of one another" (Eph 4:25)? Remember the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, how He said, "woe to the man by whom offenses come! It were better for him that he had never been born, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of My elect. Yea, it were better for him that a millstone should be hung about his neck, and he should be sunk in the depths of the sea, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of My little ones" (cf. Mt 18:6-7). Your schism has subverted the faith of many, has discouraged many, has given rise to doubt in many, and has caused grief to us all. And still your sedition continues.
In my opinion this letter applies here today on this board as much as it did in the first century when St. Clement wrote it.
Blessings to you all, Ann
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Post by genesda on May 4, 2004 5:39:48 GMT -5
St Clement wrote the Corinthians: Why, then are there strifes, tumults, divisions, schisms, and wars among you? Have we not one God and one Christ? Is there not one Spirit of grace poured out upon us? And have we not one calling in Christ? Why do we divide and tear to pieces the members of Christ, and raise up strife against our own body and have reached such a height of madness as to forget that "we are members of one another" (Eph 4:25)? Remember the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, how He said, "woe to the man by whom offenses come! It were better for him that he had never been born, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of My elect. Yea, it were better for him that a millstone should be hung about his neck, and he should be sunk in the depths of the sea, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of My little ones" (cf. Mt 18:6-7). Your schism has subverted the faith of many, has discouraged many, has given rise to doubt in many, and has caused grief to us all. And still your sedition continues. In my opinion this letter applies here today on this board as much as it did in the first century when St. Clement wrote it. Blessings to you all, Ann That's typical. Clemment said "follow these certain teachings and all will be O.K. Don't think for yourself or question what we say." [/color]
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Post by HomeAtLast on May 4, 2004 9:43:58 GMT -5
St Clement wrote the Corinthians: Why, then are there strifes, tumults, divisions, schisms, and wars among you? Have we not one God and one Christ? Is there not one Spirit of grace poured out upon us? And have we not one calling in Christ? Why do we divide and tear to pieces the members of Christ, and raise up strife against our own body and have reached such a height of madness as to forget that "we are members of one another" (Eph 4:25)? Remember the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, how He said, "woe to the man by whom offenses come! It were better for him that he had never been born, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of My elect. Yea, it were better for him that a millstone should be hung about his neck, and he should be sunk in the depths of the sea, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of My little ones" (cf. Mt 18:6-7). Your schism has subverted the faith of many, has discouraged many, has given rise to doubt in many, and has caused grief to us all. And still your sedition continues. In my opinion this letter applies here today on this board as much as it did in the first century when St. Clement wrote it. Blessings to you all, Ann That's typical. Clemment said "follow these certain teachings and all will be O.K. Don't think for yourself or question what we say." [/color][/quote] gene, and also typical that you find a few words in there to draw attention from the point of the pkmtyolpage! St Clement had a personal relationship with the Apostles and was taught by them and it is thought that he was consecrated as a bishop by Peter himself. Please read the pkmtyolpage from St. Clement and concentrate on the total message of his writings without nitpicking every word and try to see how he was addressing Christian fighting amongst themselves. Blessings, Ann
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