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Post by genesda on May 25, 2004 7:02:38 GMT -5
You are absolutely, 100 percent correct Gene! There is not one line of scripture that calls for a CHANGE in God's sabbath.
Before God gave the Law to the SONS OF ISRAEL, ...3 Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the SONS OF ISRAEL: 4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself. 5 'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; 6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to SONS OF ISRAEL."Exodus 19:3-6 New American Standard Bible ( NASB®) {emphasis mine} When God gave the Law to the SONS OF ISRAEL, He said ...2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery ... 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:2, 8-11 NASB® 12 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 13 "But as for you, speak to the SONS OF ISRAEL, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.14 Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death. 16 So the SONS OF ISRAEL shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.' 17 It is a sign between Me and the SONS OF ISRAEL forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed."Exodus 31:12-17 NASB® 1 Then Moses assembled all the congregation of the SONS OF ISRAEL, and said to them, "These are the things that the LORD has commanded you to do: 2 For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. 3 You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day."Exodus 35:1-3 NASB® The Prophet Nehemiah confirmed that the sabbath was made known to the SONS OF ISRAEL through Moses, not before then...9 "You saw the affliction of our fathers in Egypt, And heard their cry by the Red Sea. 10 "Then You performed signs and wonders against Pharaoh, Against all his servants and all the people of his land; For You knew that they acted arrogantly toward them, And made a name for Yourself as it is this day. 11 "You divided the sea before them, So they pkmtyolped through the midst of the sea on dry ground; And their pursuers You hurled into the depths, Like a stone into raging waters. 12 "And with a pillar of cloud You led them by day, And with a pillar of fire by night To light for them the way In which they were to go. 13 "Then You came down on Mount Sinai, And spoke WITH THEM from heaven; You gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments. 14 "So You made known TO THEM Your holy sabbath, And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law, Through Your servant Moses.Nehemiah 9:9-14 NASB® Paul and Barnabas met with the apostles and the elders in the "Council at Jerusalem" to discuss Gentile Christians and their keeping Jewish laws ...5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them {Gentiles} to observe the Law of Moses." 6 The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. Acts 15:5-6 NASB® The end result was this statement:23b The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, 25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.Acts 15:23b-29 NASB® The Apostles and Elders didn't require new Gentile Christians in Jerusalem to follow the Sabbath Laws -- laws that had been given to the SONS OF ISRAEL So they didn't make a change to God's Law. Who are you to make a change to God's Law?
Scott I don't profess a change at all. It seems as though you are trying to do that by saying the law was for the "sons of Israel" and not all mankind. You've never accepted that the "sons of Israel" were supposed to be the bearer of God's laws to the world. That's what they were "chosen" for. If God's laws were only for the "sons of israel" then only the "sons of Israel" could sin. "Sin is transgression of the law". The law points out what sin is. Where there is no law, there is no sin.
Do you see how silly it is to say that the law was only for the "sons of Israel"? [/color]
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Post by TarueBeliever on May 25, 2004 17:31:41 GMT -5
I don't profess a change at all. It seems as though you are trying to do that by saying the law was for the "sons of Israel" and not all mankind. You've never accepted that the "sons of Israel" were supposed to be the bearer of God's laws to the world. That's what they were "chosen" for. If God's laws were only for the "sons of israel" then only the "sons of Israel" could sin. "Sin is transgression of the law". The law points out what sin is. Where there is no law, there is no sin.
Do you see how silly it is to say that the law was only for the "sons of Israel"? [/color][/quote] I didn’t post that you professed a change. I agreed with you that there was not one line of scripture that called for a change in God's sabbath. The scriptures say God gave the Law to the Israelites and their descenants. There is no scripture that states otherwise.
There is no scripture that shows that Israel was to share or bear the Law to the rest of the world. There was no commandment for them to teach the Law to other nations. Moses told the Israelites …5 See, I have taught you statutes and judgments just as the LORD my God commanded me, that you should do thus in the land where you are entering to possess it. 6 So keep and do them, for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes and say, 'Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.' 7 For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as is the LORD our God whenever we call on Him? 8 Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today?9 Only give heed to yourself and keep your soul diligently, so that you do not forget the things which your eyes have seen and they do not depart from your heart all the days of your life; but make them known to your sons and your grandsons.Deuteronomy 4:5-9 New American Standard Bible ( NASB) Moses encouraged the nation of Israel to obey God’s laws. Did Moses tell them to go out and share God’s law with the other nations? No, he did not. Moses said, "make them known to your sons and your grandsons." The Law was for the Sons of Israel.
As for your using 1 John 3:4b from the "King James Version" as a deffinition of sin, I’ve shown you, that those aren’t the words that John wrote in the Greek Text. The KJV translation is wrong. John wrote …Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.1 John 3:4 NASB
Adam and Eve sinned. Yet when they sinned, the Law was 2500 years into the future. In Noah’s time, sin was rampant. The Law was another 1000 years away. God made a coventant with Noah after the flood …1 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. 2 The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given. 3 Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant.4 Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. 5 Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man's brother I will require the life of man.6 Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.7 As for you, be fruitful and multiply; Populate the earth abundantly and multiply in it.8 Then God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying, 9 Now behold, I Myself do establish My covenant with you, and with your descendants after you; 10 and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that comes out of the ark, even every beast of the earth. 11 I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth."Genesis 9:1-11 NASB
This was the first set of commandments established with ALL MANKIND (everyone that’s ever lived since this covenant was made was a descendant of Noah). Did this covenant include a Sabbath Day? No!
Shoot forward 2400 years to the council at Jerusalem. When some Jewish-Christians demanded that all Christian follow the Law of Moses, the Apostles and Elders didn’t instruct the Gentile Christians to observe the Sabbath per the Law of Moses or to be circumcised per the covenant of Abraham. They asked that all Christains not eat meat with the blood still in it, as in the Coventant made with Noah and all Mankind. There’s no scripture that shows the apostles kept the sabbath after Christ died on the cross. You know it.
Scott
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Post by genesda on May 26, 2004 8:50:40 GMT -5
There is no scripture that shows that Israel was to share or bear the Law to the rest of the world. There was no commandment for them to teach the Law to other nations. Moses told the Israelites …
5 See, I have taught you statutes and judgments just as the LORD my God commanded me, that you should do thus in the land where you are entering to possess it. 6 So keep and do them, for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes and say, 'Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.' [/color] Scott, you just contradicted yourself with your own scripture quote. [/color]
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Post by TarueBeliever on May 26, 2004 14:05:34 GMT -5
Gene,
In Deuteronomy 4:6, "the peoples" doesn't refer to other nations surrounding the Israelites. It refers to the tribes of the Nation of Israel.
In this verse one Hebrew word, "'M," is used for "people." A different Hebrew word, "GWY," is used for "nation."
Moses was not telling the Israelites to be obedient in front of foreigners so that they would hear the Laws, but to be obedient in front of their own kinsmen, their own people.
I was not contradicting myself.
Scott
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Post by genesda on May 27, 2004 6:32:31 GMT -5
Gene,
In Deuteronomy 4:6, "the peoples" doesn't refer to other nations surrounding the Israelites. It refers to the tribes of the Nation of Israel.
In this verse one Hebrew word, "'M," is used for "people." A different Hebrew word, "GWY," is used for "nation."
Moses was not telling the Israelites to be obedient in front of foreigners so that they would hear the Laws, but to be obedient in front of their own kinsmen, their own people.
I was not contradicting myself.
Scott The Israelites heard God SPEAK the commandments for themselves. Moses wasn't telling the Israelites to teach the Israelites. He was talking about others that had not heard the laws given by God. The Israelites were to be the preachers to the world. That is what they were "chosen" for. You seem to want "chosen" to mean the Israelites were something special and that only the Israelites had the plan of salvation for themselves. God made the plan before anyone was created on this Earth and salvation was for mankind not just for the Israelites. If the Israelites didn't give the plan of salvation to everyone else, how were they to learn about God and the Savior that was to come? The Israelites weren't the only ones the plan was for. Scott, you seem to have missed something along the way. Maybe it's in that failed Jesuit interpretation of prophecy concerning the future of the Jews and a new temple and all of that that has your mind clouded.
Translating the words are not the only important thing, it's putting together the correct understanding that's important.
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Post by TarueBeliever on May 27, 2004 13:05:03 GMT -5
Gene,
Still, understanding the words themselves, then the sentences, then the chapters as a whole is how we should study the Scriptures. We shouldn't come up with pre-conceived ideas and force the words to take on meanings they didn't have when God had the human author write them down. You keep saying let the Bible speak for itself. You need to listen to the Bible with new ears ... ears that don't have the teachings of Ellen White warping everything you hear.
Your "church" claims they don't even talk about her much any more. All that means is they don't give her the credit in public gatherings for the same old teachings. What you espouse on this board is "Ellenism" through-and-through. Just as she was a false teacher, what you've been posting is false. It's full of lies and hate.
The good news is that Christ still loves you. You can repent of hating those who disagree with you, of condeming those who have sinned against you (and of condeming those who haven't sinned against you personally like Muslims around the world). Christ's message to the world wasn't about keeping the Law of Moses -- it was about loving other people. The Old Law said to love our neigbor -- literally "the man who lives near me." Jesus told us moreover to love each other and everyone who needs love. I just pray for the knowledge of what to do to love you, Gene. I don't want to win an argument with you. I just don't want you selling Christ's grace short. Being a Christian isn't about keeping a set of rules. It's about Christ living in you. Saying the Ten Commandments are not in force for me as a Christian doesn't mean I'm advocating sin! Christ living in me doesn't choose sin! That's Christianity!
Scott
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Post by genesda on May 28, 2004 6:32:14 GMT -5
Gene, Still, understanding the words themselves, then the sentences, then the chapters as a whole is how we should study the Scriptures. We shouldn't come up with pre-conceived ideas and force the words to take on meanings they didn't have when God had the human author write them down. You keep saying let the Bible speak for itself. You need to listen to the Bible with new ears ... ears that don't have the teachings of Ellen White warping everything you hear. I never brought up anything but what the scriptures teach. For someone like you to call everyday holy is not biblical at all. You keep the pagan Sunday as a holy day BECAUSE the denomination you belong to keeps it that way, not because the bible says so. Was the plan of salvation for all of mankind or not? Was it just for the Jews or not? The answer to these two questions should help you to come to a correct understanding of why they were "chosen". [/color] Your "church" claims they don't even talk about her much any more. I'm not aware of this, but the SDA church doctrines aren't based on her, so she doesn't take the "high place" in SDA worship. [/color] All that means is they don't give her the credit in public gatherings for the same old teachings. What you espouse on this board is "Ellenism" through-and-through. Just as she was a false teacher, what you've been posting is false. It's full of lies and hate. Actually what I post is common sense according to the scriptural teachings from God. You are the one claiming that the law was only for the Israelites which is where the lies are. You reject God's law and wish to live by a standard that you call God's law which really isn't. [/color] The good news is that Christ still loves you. And you too, even though you reject His commandments. [/color] You can repent of hating those who disagree with you, Now you claim to be able to judge what's in my heart. It must be nice to belong to a selfrighteous denomination who can judge others. [/color] of condeming those who have sinned against you (and of condeming those who haven't sinned against you personally like Muslims around the world). I don't condemn the Muslims, they do that for themselves just as all others who reject God's teachings do. [/color] Christ's message to the world wasn't about keeping the Law of Moses -- it was about loving other people. John 14:15 "if you love Me, keep my commandments." Oh, I forgot, that was only for the Jews, right? The Old Law said to love our neigbor -- literally "the man who lives near me." Jesus told us moreover to love each other and everyone who needs love. The "old law"? In other words, when God said that the first time, he was wrong in who He was speaking of? he later changed His mind and said to include all people, which He really didn't mean the first time? [/color] I just pray for the knowledge of what to do to love you, Gene. I don't want to win an argument with you. Well, I want to win this argument because you're headed in the wrong direction and I hope i can get you to see the truth. Christians will be judged by God's law. [/color] I just don't want you selling Christ's grace short. I never seel God's grace short. Without God's grace, man would be lost. [/color] Being a Christian isn't about keeping a set of rules. Right, it's about a character that LIVES by God's rules AFTER God writes that same law in the Christians heart. [/color] It's about Christ living in you. Saying the Ten Commandments are not in force for me as a Christian doesn't mean I'm advocating sin! Maybe not in your mind, but in reality, that's exactly what that means. [/color] Christ living in me doesn't choose sin! That's Christianity! And by just what standard does Christ living in you tell you what sin is and how to avoid it?
When was the last time you sinned Scott? Did that sin break one of the commandments that are written on the tablets? If you say no, then please spell it out and let's see if it in fact did break one of the ten.
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Post by TarueBeliever on May 28, 2004 9:58:44 GMT -5
When Christ told his disciples ...
If ever youpl love me, then it is possible youpl will {in the future} obey MY commands; John 14:15 translated from NT Greek by me
... He wasn't telling them they had to keep the Law of the Old Covenant in order to love Him. Instead, He was telling them that they had to first love him to be able obey the commands that He himself had given them while He was on earth prior to His death on the cross.
I posted, "You can repent of hating those who disagree with you …" not because I claim to judge what’s in your heart. You frequently post stuff like this … IF we have to suffer more terrorists attacks as we did 0n 9/11, maybe if your home town or your home is hit, then maybe you'll open your eyes. In fact, I hope they target people who think like you instead of people who support america and don't blame america first for the crimes of Islam. genesda, LBMB Left Us Behind – General – Discussion - Thou shalt not kill..... « Reply #48 on: 05/26/2004 at 07:26:13 »
That's hate. Pure and plain. I didn't have guess. You revealed it.
You don't follow the teaching of Ellen G White but those of the Bible? OK! Answer these ...
What specifically is the Law?
Where's the scriptural pkmtyolpage showing that Adam was given the Law?
Where's the scriptural pkmtyolpage showing that Abraham either knew about or was given the Law?
What specifically is the Plan of Salvation?
Where's the scriptural pkmtyolpage showing that Adam was revealed the Plan of Salvation?
Where's the scriptural pkmtyolpage showing that Abraham knew about or were revealed the Plan of Salvation?
Where's the scriptural pkmtyolpage showing that Moses and the Israelites knew about or were revealed the Plan of Salvation?
Scott
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Post by genesda on Jun 1, 2004 7:16:42 GMT -5
When Christ told his disciples ...If ever youpl love me, then it is possible youpl will {in the future} obey MY commands;John 14:15 translated from NT Greek by me This sounds like a translation that was made to suit some individual beliefs. [/color] ... He wasn't telling them they had to keep the Law of the Old Covenant in order to love Him. Instead, He was telling them that they had to first love him to be able obey the commands that He himself had given them while He was on earth prior to His death on the cross.
I agree. So, if you love Him, obey His commandments, not those which suit the group you belong to. I posted, "You can repent of hating those who disagree with you …" not because I claim to judge what’s in your heart. You frequently post stuff like this … [/color] IF we have to suffer more terrorists attacks as we did 0n 9/11, maybe if your home town or your home is hit, then maybe you'll open your eyes. In fact, I hope they target people who think like you instead of people who support america and don't blame america first for the crimes of Islam.genesda, LBMB Left Us Behind – General – Discussion - Thou shalt not kill..... « Reply #48 on: 05/26/2004 at 07:26:13 » That's hate. Pure and plain. I didn't have guess. You revealed it.
Not at all. I'm just facing the reality that we could be subject to more attacks, and IF americans HAVE to die, I hope it's not those which support the president in our quest to end terrorism. I hope we don't have any more attacks, but if we do, then our enemies here and abroad should be the victims, not those of us who want peace in our lives. I don't see how you could possibly miss what I meant, unless it was by design. You don't follow the teaching of Ellen G White but those of the Bible? OK! Answer these ... What specifically is the Law? The law is what was given to Moses at Sinai. [/color] Where's the scriptural pkmtyolpage showing that Adam was given the Law? There is no scripture that actually states this, but if the law wasn't given to Adam, why was Cain and Able sacrificing? If God didn't specifically tell them to sacrifice a lamb, why was Cain's rejected? Where did God tell them to kill a lamb for a sacrifice? [/color] Where's the scriptural pkmtyolpage showing that Abraham either knew about or was given the Law? The bible says Abraham kept ALL of God's laws, statues and commandments. [/color] What specifically is the Plan of Salvation? Faith in Christ paying the price for sin, and then turning away from sin. [/color] Where's the scriptural pkmtyolpage showing that Adam was revealed the Plan of Salvation? Again, there is no scripture, so that means adam didn't have a chance, right? [/color] Where's the scriptural pkmtyolpage showing that Abraham knew about or were revealed the Plan of Salvation? Where's the scriptural pkmtyolpage showing that Moses and the Israelites knew about or were revealed the Plan of Salvation? Scott I stopped answering your silly questions. The answers come from studying the scriptures which shows God's intent for mankind, which you seem to have missed somewhere along the way.
It is utterly silly to think that God had a plan of salvation formulated BEFORE this world was created and then didn't tell anyone about it until thousands of years after Adam.
I can't believe anyone with intelligence would actually believe such foolishness unless they have an agenda that doesn't allow for God to have wanted to save ALL of mankind.
You're actually saying that God didn't want all of mankind saved, which the bible says He did.
Now you answer why God would have different requirements for some since His plan was decided BEFORE this world was created? [/color]
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Post by TarueBeliever on Jun 1, 2004 13:52:59 GMT -5
Gene,
I don't translate to force scripture to say what I want it to say. I use simple lingustics to find out what the scriptures actually say without the twists others would give it.
In Greek, verbs with a subjunctive mood express action which is not really taking place but which is possible. Verbs with a subjunctive mood are used in some conditional {if-then} sentences.
The Third cpkmtyoll condition is the probable future condition. It is expressed by the Greek word "ea'n" {if so ever} with a subjunctive verb in the protasis {the "if clause"} and any form needed in the apodosis {the "then clause"}. It expresses that which is not really taking place but which probably will take place in the future.
For example, "tou'to poiê'omen, ea'n epitre'êi ho Theôs." is translated, "This we will do if God permits." That is, we are not now doing it, but it is probable that we will do it on the condition of God's permitting us.
The verse John 14:15 is an example of the third cpkmtyoll condition: Ea'n agapa'te me , ta's entola's ta's ema's têrê'sete :
The word "agapa'te" is a verb, 2nd in person, plural in number, present in tense, active in voice, and subjunctive in mood. Its base word is "agapa'ô," meaning "self-less love" or "love expecting nothing in return." The word "agapa'te" is translated "youpl might love."
The phrase, "ta's entola's ta's ema's" is made up of the noun "entola's" meaning "commands" and the adjective "ema's" meaning "mine own." Both words are preceeded by " ta's," the definite article, "the." When an adjective is immediately preceeded by the definite article, it attributes a quality to the noun it modifies. In this case, the phrase, "ta's entola's ta's ema's" is translated "my own commands."
In the Greek of New Testament times, there were different ways to indicate personal possession. One way to have written this phrase would have been "ta's entola's mou" meaning literally "my commands." For more emphasis, the author could have chosen "ta's entola's emou'" meaning "my commands" with emphasis on the "my." The author actually chose a third alternative. He chose "ta's entola's ta's ema's" meaning "my own commands."
The word "têrê'sete" is a verb, 2nd in person, plural in number, future in tense, active in voice, and indicative in mood. Its base word is "têre'ô," meaning "keep" or "obey." The word " têrê'sete" is translated "youpl will obey." This not a command, but a statement about a future event.
From the Greek, the verse is translated, "If so ever youpl might love me, youpl will obey my own commands;"
The verse is made up of the word "ea'n" with a subjunctive verb, "agapa'te" in the protasis {the "if clause"} and an apodosis {the "then clause"}. Thus, grammatically it’s a probable future condition. The verse can be interpreted to mean, "Youpl are not now obeying my own commands, but it is probable that youpl will in the future on the condition that youpl love me self-lessly."
What is the significance of this "interpretation?" Jesus was not refering to the commands in the Covenant that God made with the Israelites at Mountt Sinai. He was referring to the commands that he himself had given his disciples while he was here on earth.
Scott
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Post by TarueBeliever on Jun 1, 2004 16:17:23 GMT -5
Gene,
There is no record of God telling Adam, Cain, or Abel to offer sacrifices. Why Cain and Abel were making sacrifices, I don't know. I don't care to speculate about either.
But I do know that the Law didn't always demand that a lamb be sacrificed. Different parts of the law asked for different sacrifices to be made. Sometimes a male goat was called for, sometimes a female. Sometimes either a goat or a lamb would do. Sometimes a bull was required if the sins of a priest were involved. In the case of Cain and Abel, they each were acting as their own priest. If they were offering a sin offering, they should have both been offering a bull!
If a person didn't have either a goat or a lamb, he could offer a grain offering. In other cases, a grain offering was required along side the bull/goat/lamg offering.
To say that Cain's offering was rejected because it wasn't a lamb shows a complete ignorance of the Law with respect to the laws of the offerings. It tells me you don't get your teachings from studying the Bible. You get them from Ellen G White ...
The two brothers erected their altars alike, and each brought an offering. Abel presented a sacrifice from the flock, in accordance with the Lord's directions. "And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering." Fire flashed from heaven and consumed the sacrifice. But Cain, disregarding the Lord's direct and explicit command, presented only an offering of fruit. There was no token from heaven to show that it was accepted. Abel pleaded with his brother to approach God in the divinely prescribed way, but his entreaties only made Cain the more determined to follow his own will. As the eldest, he felt above being admonished by his brother, and despised his counsel. Patriarchs and Prophets pp. 71-72.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Jun 1, 2004 19:43:02 GMT -5
Gene,
Believe it or not, I believe God did form a covenant WITH ALL MANKIND well before He made His covenant with the Israelites at Mount Sinai ...
1 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. 2 The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given. 3 Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant. 4 Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. 5 Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man's brother I will require the life of man.
6 Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.
7 As for you, be fruitful and multiply; Populate the earth abundantly and multiply in it. 8 Then God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying, 9 Now behold, I Myself do establish My covenant with you, and with your descendants after you; 10 and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that comes out of the ark, even every beast of the earth. 11 I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth." 12 God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I am making between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all successive generations; 13 I set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth. 14 It shall come about, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow will be seen in the cloud, 15 and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16 When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth." 17 And God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is on the earth." Genesis 9:1-17 NASB
The Lord God had given commands to Noah and to his descendants (all mankind from that point on).
Also, the Lord God gave specific commands to Abraham …
Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you;" Genesis 12:1 NASB
Then Abraham circumcised his son Isaac when he was eight days old, as God had commanded him. Genesis 21:4 NASB
15 Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." Genesis 22:15-17 NASB
When the Lord said to Issac ...
4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws"
... He was referring to those commandments, statutes and laws we actually know about, the ones he had already given to Noah and the ones He specifically gave to Abraham himself.
Scott
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Post by genesda on Jun 2, 2004 6:22:25 GMT -5
Gene, I don't translate to force scripture to say what I want it to say. I use simple lingustics to find out what the scriptures actually say without the twists others would give it. In Greek, verbs with a subjunctive mood express action which is not really taking place but which is possible. Verbs with a subjunctive mood are used in some conditional {if-then} sentences. The Third cpkmtyoll condition is the probable future condition. It is expressed by the Greek word " ea'n" {if so ever} with a subjunctive verb in the protasis {the "if clause"} and any form needed in the apodosis {the "then clause"}. It expresses that which is not really taking place but which probably will take place in the future. For example, " tou'to poiê'omen, ea'n epitre'êi ho Theôs." is translated, "This we will do if God permits." That is, we are not now doing it, but it is probable that we will do it on the condition of God's permitting us. The verse John 14:15 is an example of the third cpkmtyoll condition: Ea'n agapa'te me , ta's entola's ta's ema's têrê'sete :The word " agapa'te" is a verb, 2nd in person, plural in number, present in tense, active in voice, and subjunctive in mood. Its base word is " agapa'ô," meaning "self-less love" or "love expecting nothing in return." The word " agapa'te" is translated "you pl might love." The phrase, " ta's entola's ta's ema's" is made up of the noun " entola's" meaning "commands" and the adjective " ema's" meaning "mine own." Both words are preceeded by " ta's," the definite article, "the." When an adjective is immediately preceeded by the definite article, it attributes a quality to the noun it modifies. In this case, the phrase, " ta's entola's ta's ema's" is translated "my own commands." In the Greek of New Testament times, there were different ways to indicate personal possession. One way to have written this phrase would have been " ta's entola's mou" meaning literally "my commands." For more emphasis, the author could have chosen " ta's entola's emou'" meaning " my commands" with emphasis on the "my." The author actually chose a third alternative. He chose " ta's entola's ta's ema's" meaning " my own commands." The word " têrê'sete" is a verb, 2nd in person, plural in number, future in tense, active in voice, and indicative in mood. Its base word is " têre'ô," meaning "keep" or "obey." The word " têrê'sete" is translated "you pl will obey." This not a command, but a statement about a future event. From the Greek, the verse is translated, "If so ever you pl might love me, you pl will obey my own commands;" The verse is made up of the word " ea'n" with a subjunctive verb, " agapa'te" in the protasis {the "if clause"} and an apodosis {the "then clause"}. Thus, grammatically it’s a probable future condition. The verse can be interpreted to mean, " Youpl are not now obeying my own commands, but it is probable that youpl will in the future on the condition that youpl love me self-lessly." What is the significance of this "interpretation?" Jesus was not refering to the commands in the Covenant that God made with the Israelites at Mountt Sinai. He was referring to the commands that he himself had given his disciples while he was here on earth. Scott Jesus changed nothing when He was here. Just who do you think made the covenant at Sinai? The only changes were in the sacrificial system which expired. Jesus clarified some things that had been diluted or perverted, but there were no real changes. Everything given at Sinai didn't have to be repeated as if there was some cut off point in what the O.T. taught Every quote Jesus used was from the O.T. writings. He believed they were still valid, but today, new comers believe He was wrong. You seem to want to believe that the translaters didn't know what they were doing and that now you know better. While there are some translation mistakes, they are not as widespread as you would want me to believe. You should come up with a new bible translation for your church since you don't have faith that the King James is correct in it'e wording.
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Post by RodP on Jun 17, 2004 21:51:05 GMT -5
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Blasphemy pure and simple. To even deny the mission of Christ, and yet proclaim to "understand" the biible! Laughable at best.
I've had enough of your board Gene. Enjoy yourself. And I truly hope that you are not able to lead anyone into your deceptive ideaologies.
Matthew 18 5Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Jesus Warns of Offenses (1) 6 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes! --------------------------------------------------------- Mark 9 41For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.
Jesus Warns of Offenses (1) 42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched -----------------------------------------------------
Luke 17
Jesus Warns of Offenses
The Coming of the Kingdom (1) 1 Then He said to the disciples, "It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! 2It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. 3Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you,[1] rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
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Post by genesda on Jun 18, 2004 6:28:06 GMT -5
Blasphemy pure and simple. Really? What is it that you consider to be blasphemy? [/color] To even deny the mission of Christ, and yet proclaim to "understand" the biible! Laughable at best. Deny? When did I ever deny Christ's mission? [/color] I've had enough of your board Gene. Enjoy yourself. And I truly hope that you are not able to lead anyone into your deceptive ideaologies. Deceptive? What have I written that is deceptive? [/color] Matthew 18 5Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me. O.K., now what's the point of this quote here in this post? [/color] Jesus Warns of Offenses (1) 6 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes! Again, O.K. I ask again for the point? [/color] --------------------------------------------------------- Mark 9 41For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward. Are you tryin g to say giving someone a cup of water means salvation? [/color] Jesus Warns of Offenses (1) 42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched That;s what you do when you tell others to disregard God's commandments, specifically His sabbath day. [/color] ----------------------------------------------------- Luke 17 Jesus Warns of Offenses The Coming of the Kingdom (1) 1 Then He said to the disciples, "It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! 2It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. 3Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you,[1] rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. I agree, and breaking ANY of His commandments wilfully amounts to what these verses are talking about.
You call what I write blasphemy when all i do is state obedience to God is necessary for the Christian.
You advocate DISOBEDIENCE and call that Christian.
Maybe you should search out what blasphemy means and what it involves. You make false charges and then prove them with nothing but your own unbiblical ideas. [/color]
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