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Post by genesda on May 11, 2004 6:24:59 GMT -5
Automatic writing? I associate that with the occult. God did not employ occult sciences in authoring the Word of God, yet it is His word - delivered to human authors that wrote as they were moved upon by the Holy Spirit (that is what the Bible says about itself). Yet each author spoke from his own experience, but was led so as to keep them from writing error. Paul employed ameneusis' and they spoke exactly, word-for-word in robotic fashion exactly what Paul dictacted - but those writers were not writing under inspiration, but Paul was giving to them God's inspired message. The writers of the Gospels each told the same story, but related it to different themes of the Person of Christ. Matthew spoke of the King of the Jews, Mark wrote of the servant of God, Luke wrote of the Man-God, and John wrote of the God-Man. Matthew was written to the Jews, Mark was written to the Romans, Luke to the Greeks and John to the Gentiles in general. O.K., so what's the point? They all had the same message, and they are still being misunderstood to some degree because people don't read the bible as coming from one author. People will quote Paul as though the others don't count.
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Post by Pietro on May 11, 2004 8:58:22 GMT -5
Paul employed ameneusis' and they spoke exactly, word-for-word in robotic fashion exactly what Paul dictacted - but those writers were not writing under inspiration, but Paul was giving to them God's inspired message. And yet Paul admits that his letters contain some of his own persinal judgment interspersed with God's "insipred message" and in his advice for people to remain in thier present station of life because "time is running out" there is a a hint of the degree in which God's Word must make its way through human instrument. 1 Corinthians 7
Now in regard to virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are. Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife. But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this. What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is pkmtyolping away.
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Post by Nicodemus on May 11, 2004 9:35:49 GMT -5
Robert Gromacki handles this incident thusly: "Concerning them [virgins], Christ did not speak when He was on earth nor did He reveal to Paul any commandments. However, the apostle chose to give his "judgment" (gnomen is related to the word for "knowledge," gnosis), namely counsel based upon experience and observation. He cited two qualifications for his right to give this advice. First, he had obtained mercy and second, he was regarded as faithful by Christ. Both concepts involve his salvation experience and his call into the apostolic ministry (cf. 4:2; II Cor. 4:1; I Tim. 1:12). If anyone had a right to speak to this subject, it was Paul. Under the circumstances, it was the best counsel that anyone could give or receive."
pp. 94-95 "Called to be Saints: An Exposition of I Corinthians"
But the argument that Paul was not speaking under inspiration here can not be proven. Just because he says that he is giving his own counsel does not preclude that it was not equally inspired.
Was Paul speaking under inspiration when he asked Timothy to bring him the "books and the parchments?" or his cloak?
We are instructed, Pietro, to "rightly divide the Word of God," and one that is obedient to this advice can see when the personal side of Paul is presented. No one would suggest that we rip I Corinthians 7:25ff out of our Bibles because it was Paul's personal "inspired" opinion.
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Post by Pietro on May 11, 2004 13:11:46 GMT -5
We are instructed, Pietro, to "rightly divide the Word of God," and one that is obedient to this advice can see when the personal side of Paul is presented. No one would suggest that we rip I Corinthians 7:25ff out of our Bibles because it was Paul's personal "inspired" opinion. You certainly give that impression when you speak of the entire Bible as "from the mind of God to the pen of man." And if that "inspired opinion" was followed the human reace would be extinct now 2000 years later.
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Post by Nicodemus on May 11, 2004 18:15:44 GMT -5
So you see order, stability and faithfulness in the family to be one of the greatest threats to mankind?
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Post by Pietro on May 12, 2004 8:22:52 GMT -5
So you see order, stability and faithfulness in the family to be one of the greatest threats to mankind? How could you possibly get that idea if you really have it. Paul thought the time was so close at hand that single people ought not marry or have children, though if they did it wouldn't be a sin. Eventually as married people died there would be no one to replace them...extinction. As I said his human opinion is interspersed with divine inspiration. You want to treat it all as from the "mind of God to the pen of man". See my point? Your personal interpretatrion of scripture as well as your entire approach needs help. But you are like so many who think that all you need is the guidance of the Holy Spirit, hence the thousands of different interpretations in conflict with each other as well as common sense..
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Post by masarap on May 12, 2004 22:56:10 GMT -5
May the Lord be with you in your ministry, Masarap! So happy you have taken the time to post here. Do you know the song by mercyme? Here I Am? This is what comes to me after reading your post! Here are the words: On the other side of the world/She stands on the ocean shore/Gazing at the heavens she wonders/Is there something more/Never been told the name of Jesus/She turns and walks away/What a shame/Just across the streat in your hometown/Leaving from his nine to five/Gazing down the road he wonders/Is this all there is to life/Never been told the name of Jesus/He continues on his way/What a shame/Whom shall I send/Who will go for me/to the ends of the earth/Who will rise up for the King/Here I am/Send me/Whether foreign land or neighbors/Everyone's the same/Searching for the answers/That lie within your name/I want to proclaim the name of Jesus/In all I do and say/Unashamed/How beautfiul are the feet of those who bring good news/Proclaiming peace and salvation <>< Thanks Jan!!! Is this song on the new album? Ill have to get it!!!
As for many of the people here, they "know of" Jesus but they don't know of a daily vital relationship that transforms their life.... They do religious "things" hoping upon hope that it will be enough...... Our mission is to open the "GOOD NEWS" to them that the work Christ did is enough to save them "to the uttermost" but not only that but that God seeks to give them a purpose and a pkmtyolpion for living!!! Living victoriously and free from trying to earn their salvation and a life of victory over bad choices that religion can never cure... These people have no idea that Jesus paid it all... If they understand it makes all the difference!! The Word of God can truly make them "wise for Salvation" not any church, man or beast, including me!!! We bring them the Word and encourage them to "come and see" God bless you for your encouragement...
We went to a Leproserium yesterday where people are "abandoned" because of their sickness.... Its seems its the same way with many of the people here in the Philippines, they are abandoned by their church and never told they can truly be healed.... Lord help us to make you known!!!! Masarap
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Post by Jan on May 13, 2004 0:05:54 GMT -5
Masarap, thanks again for posting about your ministry! Please keep us informed! Praying for you and your mission for our Lord Jesus Christ! <><
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Post by Cohdra on May 20, 2004 14:48:45 GMT -5
Thus we read in the New Testament of evangelists (bishops) and presbyters (priests) and deacons. We read of how the deacons are to assist the higher leaders and relieve them of duties which would take them away from the word of God and prayer (Acts 6:2-4). We read of how the presbyter-priests are to labor in teaching and administrating (1 Timothy 5:17b). We read of how the evangelist-bishops (cf. 2 Timothy 4:5) are to appoint (1 Timothy 5:22, Titus 1:5) and then discipline the presbyters, rewarding those who "rule well" (1 Timothy 5:17a) and openly rebuking those who persist in sin (1 Timothy 5:20). And, most importantly, we read the direction to the laymen to "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority" (Hebrews 13:17a) for they "are over you in the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 5:12).
Thus Jesus provided for his Church's needs, he gave shepherds for his flock. "And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ . . . so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine" (Ephesians 4:11-14).
Because of his Church's needs, because people would have been tossed about by every wind of doctrine, unsure what to believe and often falling into error, God provided teachers. The average person isn't supposed to do it all alone. He is supposed to have a teacher. When we see God fully in the kingdom then the promise will be fulfilled that "no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord" (Jeremiah 31:34).
That New Covenant promise is yet to be fulfilled, but for now Christ gave that "some should be . . . evangelists, some pastors and teachers," and the expressed purpose of this was that "we may no longer be . . . tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine."
Christ thus has established a Magisterium--a teaching authority--in his Church, as even Protestants recognize, for they have pastors and teachers who they proclaim to be called by God to these roles www.cin.org/users/james/files/private.htmGod bless
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Post by keikikoka on May 20, 2004 17:16:16 GMT -5
Pasters claim to be called by God to lead.. but never make the claim to be an infallible teacher.
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Post by genesda on May 21, 2004 6:43:39 GMT -5
Thus we read in the New Testament of evangelists (bishops) and presbyters (priests) and deacons. We read of how the deacons are to assist the higher leaders and relieve them of duties which would take them away from the word of God and prayer (Acts 6:2-4). We read of how the presbyter-priests are to labor in teaching and administrating (1 Timothy 5:17b). We read of how the evangelist-bishops (cf. 2 Timothy 4:5) are to appoint (1 Timothy 5:22, Titus 1:5) and then discipline the presbyters, rewarding those who "rule well" (1 Timothy 5:17a) and openly rebuking those who persist in sin (1 Timothy 5:20). And, most importantly, we read the direction to the laymen to "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority" (Hebrews 13:17a) for they "are over you in the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 5:12).
Thus Jesus provided for his Church's needs, he gave shepherds for his flock. "And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ . . . so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine" (Ephesians 4:11-14).
Because of his Church's needs, because people would have been tossed about by every wind of doctrine, unsure what to believe and often falling into error, God provided teachers. The average person isn't supposed to do it all alone. He is supposed to have a teacher. When we see God fully in the kingdom then the promise will be fulfilled that "no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord" (Jeremiah 31:34).
That New Covenant promise is yet to be fulfilled, but for now Christ gave that "some should be . . . evangelists, some pastors and teachers," and the expressed purpose of this was that "we may no longer be . . . tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine."
Christ thus has established a Magisterium--a teaching authority--in his Church, as even Protestants recognize, for they have pastors and teachers who they proclaim to be called by God to these roles www.cin.org/users/james/files/private.htmGod bless You've made leaps and bounds here never intended from the scriptures.
First, there is no "magestarium" established in the scriptures.
Secondly, there has only been ONE ordained mediating priesthood, the Levitical.
Thirdly, the "priesthood" became extinct with the death of Jesus.
Fourth, the holy spirit is the guide to truth, not the Rc "magestarium", especially after the way they've distorted the plain biblical teachings of Jesus.
Fifth, the bible is perfectly capable of explaining itself, if one would let it do so.
[/color]
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Post by HomeAtLast on May 21, 2004 8:57:20 GMT -5
Thus we read in the New Testament of evangelists (bishops) and presbyters (priests) and deacons. We read of how the deacons are to assist the higher leaders and relieve them of duties which would take them away from the word of God and prayer (Acts 6:2-4). We read of how the presbyter-priests are to labor in teaching and administrating (1 Timothy 5:17b). We read of how the evangelist-bishops (cf. 2 Timothy 4:5) are to appoint (1 Timothy 5:22, Titus 1:5) and then discipline the presbyters, rewarding those who "rule well" (1 Timothy 5:17a) and openly rebuking those who persist in sin (1 Timothy 5:20). And, most importantly, we read the direction to the laymen to "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority" (Hebrews 13:17a) for they "are over you in the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 5:12).
Thus Jesus provided for his Church's needs, he gave shepherds for his flock. "And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ . . . so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine" (Ephesians 4:11-14).
Because of his Church's needs, because people would have been tossed about by every wind of doctrine, unsure what to believe and often falling into error, God provided teachers. The average person isn't supposed to do it all alone. He is supposed to have a teacher. When we see God fully in the kingdom then the promise will be fulfilled that "no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord" (Jeremiah 31:34).
That New Covenant promise is yet to be fulfilled, but for now Christ gave that "some should be . . . evangelists, some pastors and teachers," and the expressed purpose of this was that "we may no longer be . . . tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine."
Christ thus has established a Magisterium--a teaching authority--in his Church, as even Protestants recognize, for they have pastors and teachers who they proclaim to be called by God to these roles www.cin.org/users/james/files/private.htmGod bless You've made leaps and bounds here never intended from the scriptures.
First, there is no "magestarium" established in the scriptures.
Secondly, there has only been ONE ordained mediating priesthood, the Levitical.
Thirdly, the "priesthood" became extinct with the death of Jesus.
Fourth, the holy spirit is the guide to truth, not the Rc "magestarium", especially after the way they've distorted the plain biblical teachings of Jesus.
Fifth, the bible is perfectly capable of explaining itself, if one would let it do so.
[/color][/quote] Yet, the existence of 100's of different denominations each with what they each believe to be the only correct interpretation shows that it is obviously not as clear as you believe it to be. Yes, it is clear to each denomination, just as it is clear to you. Blessings, Ann
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Post by genesda on May 21, 2004 9:55:11 GMT -5
Yet, the existence of 100's of different denominations each with what they each believe to be the only correct interpretation shows that it is obviously not as clear as you believe it to be. Yes, it is clear to each denomination, just as it is clear to you. Blessings, Ann Theer are reasons for all of the different denominations. It is because of human pride and the inability to let the scriptures speak for themselves. Just look at the sabbath issue. There is not one line of scripture that calls for a change in God's sabbath, but almost every denomination will argue that there is. The only problem is that every verse they cite doesn't call for any sort of change that they profess. That kind of biblical unreasoning goes on and on and on. There's a reason I ask for BIBLICAL TEACHINGS on a subject instead of a reference verse. [/color]
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Post by marysia on May 21, 2004 10:33:39 GMT -5
i really do not believe that any one person can have have a personal independent interprutation of scripture. i know how i read things and have heard how gene, homeatlast, codra, prot, nic and soooooooo many others, read things. i truly believe that while we will more often than not, have similarities and even some agreeances, but will never concur completely. this is because we are all different, have been raised differently and so on. my parents have instilled values based upon their interprutation which are based upon thier life experiences, their parents taught them and so on and so on... we can all say - it's our personal feelings, however when we really look, there are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more people involved.
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Post by TarueBeliever on May 22, 2004 10:34:45 GMT -5
Just look at the sabbath issue. There is not one line of scripture that calls for a change in God's sabbath, but almost every denomination will argue that there is. The only problem is that every verse they cite doesn't call for any sort of change that they profess. That kind of biblical unreasoning goes on and on and on. There's a reason I ask for BIBLICAL TEACHINGS on a subject instead of a reference verse. [/color][/quote] You are absolutely, 100 percent correct Gene! There is not one line of scripture that calls for a CHANGE in God's sabbath.
Before God gave the Law to the SONS OF ISRAEL, ...3 Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the SONS OF ISRAEL: 4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself. 5 'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; 6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to SONS OF ISRAEL."Exodus 19:3-6 New American Standard Bible ( NASB®) {emphasis mine} When God gave the Law to the SONS OF ISRAEL, He said ...2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery ... 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:2, 8-11 NASB® 12 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 13 "But as for you, speak to the SONS OF ISRAEL, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.14 Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death. 16 So the SONS OF ISRAEL shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.' 17 It is a sign between Me and the SONS OF ISRAEL forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed."Exodus 31:12-17 NASB® 1 Then Moses assembled all the congregation of the SONS OF ISRAEL, and said to them, "These are the things that the LORD has commanded you to do: 2 For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. 3 You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day."Exodus 35:1-3 NASB® The Prophet Nehemiah confirmed that the sabbath was made known to the SONS OF ISRAEL through Moses, not before then...9 "You saw the affliction of our fathers in Egypt, And heard their cry by the Red Sea. 10 "Then You performed signs and wonders against Pharaoh, Against all his servants and all the people of his land; For You knew that they acted arrogantly toward them, And made a name for Yourself as it is this day. 11 "You divided the sea before them, So they pkmtyolped through the midst of the sea on dry ground; And their pursuers You hurled into the depths, Like a stone into raging waters. 12 "And with a pillar of cloud You led them by day, And with a pillar of fire by night To light for them the way In which they were to go. 13 "Then You came down on Mount Sinai, And spoke WITH THEM from heaven; You gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments. 14 "So You made known TO THEM Your holy sabbath, And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law, Through Your servant Moses.Nehemiah 9:9-14 NASB® Paul and Barnabas met with the apostles and the elders in the "Council at Jerusalem" to discuss Gentile Christians and their keeping Jewish laws ...5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them {Gentiles} to observe the Law of Moses." 6 The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. Acts 15:5-6 NASB® The end result was this statement:23b The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, 25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.Acts 15:23b-29 NASB® The Apostles and Elders didn't require new Gentile Christians in Jerusalem to follow the Sabbath Laws -- laws that had been given to the SONS OF ISRAEL So they didn't make a change to God's Law. Who are you to make a change to God's Law?
Scott
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