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Post by FaithOfAMustardSeed on Apr 14, 2004 7:57:51 GMT -5
Paul told Timothy to keep what Timothy had already heard Paul say and to guard it:
13 Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you. 2 Timothy 1:13-14 (NASB)
13 Hold the form of sound words which thou hast heard of me: in faith and in the love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 Keep the good thing committed to thy trust by the Holy Ghost who dwelleth in us. 2 Timothy 1:13-14 (Douay-Rheims Bible)
Paul told Timothy to pkmtyolp along Paul's words to other men so they could in turn pkmtyolp the teachings along:
2 The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 2 Timothy 2:2 (NASB)
2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men who shall be fit to teach others also. 2 Timothy 2:2 (Douay-Rheims Bible)
This sort of thing would be the real beginning of the apostolic tradition (note the non-Catholic lower case spelling). The Apostles pkmtyolped along their teachings as taught to them by Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Those who followed were to keep it as it was -- not to change it, develop it, or add to it.
FOAMS
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Post by FaithOfAMustardSeed on Apr 14, 2004 8:43:50 GMT -5
Marysia, I respect your honesty, but you're talking apples and oranges. When Paul said "our traditions" he was speaking of the apostles, not anyone who came later and made up their own traditions. No one was given the authority to invent practices of worship or anything else. Paul, also said " do not exceed what is written". Their words are the only words written that came directly from Jesus. [/color][/quote] Gene, While I agree that no one should add "tradition" to the Scriptures to come up with doctrine, I'm not sure that's what Paul was writing about in this verse: And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.1 Corinthians 4:6 (KJV) Paul was cautioning the Corinthians (and all Christians ever after) not to honor any man any higher than the Scriptures allowed -- not to exceed the Scriptures limitations on honors that that can be applied so that the recipient of such honors wouldn't think to highly of him or herself. We see the dangers of such treatment today -- Star Treatment. Professional Athletes and Entertainers who are "worshiped" until they believe they can do no wrong. They come to believe they are above the civil laws and that moral laws don't exist for them. In Corinthians 4, Paul reminds us that being an Apostle is nothing to be puffed up about. They are made to suffer, made fools of, and put to death. Please don't take this as my disagreeing with you concern the Scriptures. I believe that the Scripture alone is God's Word. I don't believe that the Catholic Apostolic Tradition is a part of God's Word. FOAMS
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Post by marysia on Apr 14, 2004 8:48:32 GMT -5
Those who followed were to keep it as it was -- not to change it, develop it, or add to it. FOAMS so since our times have changed dramatically since the time of CHrist -- there are new evils and depths of moral deception that are not in the scriptures. i guess then, since the actual word(s) are not there - they don't matter. pornography, masterbation, terrorist, there were a few others too. so are things "okay" that aren't actually written in the Word? that is where we will differ. I believe the Word to be the foundation and yes, we do have to build the reality of the Word into today's generations.
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Post by HomeAtLast on Apr 14, 2004 10:09:16 GMT -5
From:http://www.xsda.net/xsda-fyifaqstuff/xsda-freqasked.html#anchor41301
1Ki 17:21 -21 - And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the LORD and said, "O LORD my God, I pray, let this childs soul come back to him." Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived.
John 11:11-14 - These things He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up." Then His disciples said, "Lord, if he sleeps he will get well." However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead".
Thus our belief that when our bodies die our souls go to be with God.
Blessings, Ann
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Post by FaithOfAMustardSeed on Apr 14, 2004 18:33:08 GMT -5
so since our times have changed dramatically since the time of CHrist -- there are new evils and depths of moral deception that are not in the scriptures. i guess then, since the actual word(s) are not there - they don't matter. pornography, masterbation, terrorist, there were a few others too. so are things "okay" that aren't actually written in the Word? that is where we will differ. I believe the Word to be the foundation and yes, we do have to build the reality of the Word into today's generations. That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun.Ecclesiastes 1:9 (NASB) People haven't changed all that much. The idea that life was once wholesum and pure and then suddenly as of late evil vices have lept out is a lie. The same old sins have always been there. Prostitutes were on the streets in every generation of the Bible. They and their sorry customers have been on the streets ever since. Pornographic stories and paintings have existed in every period of literature of the last 2000 years also. Murder, drugs, witchcraft, adultery, every sort of sin all existed when our Savior died on the cross. Jesus told us through His Apostles how to deal with those sins. He told us how to be saved from our sins and from Sin itself. The Gospel of Jesus Christ has not and will not ever change. Anyone who preaches a different gospel from the one in the Scriptures preaches a false gospel.I really don't see how you came to the conclusion I meant that "so are things 'okay' that aren't actually written in the Word?" Please explain the convoluted logic that led you to understanding that I hold this belief. I believe in Spiritual principles. Pornography is wrong because it causes lust. Jesus said if you lust in your heart you've commited adultery. For all practical purposes, pornography is adultery. But even further, the Holy Spirit tells me it's just wrong. I don't have to reason it out. I depend on the Holy Spirit to guide me. Where in Apostolic Tradition (please cite the author and work) does it deal with pornograpghy exactly? FOAMS
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Post by kkawohl on Apr 14, 2004 18:41:42 GMT -5
The Gospel of Jesus Christ has not and will not ever change. Anyone who preaches a different gospel from the one in the Scriptures preaches a false gospel.....I depend on the Holy Spirit to guide me. FOAMS You are contradicting yourself.
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Post by FaithOfAMustardSeed on Apr 14, 2004 20:30:22 GMT -5
You are contradicting yourself. Jesus Christ said ... I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.John 14:16-17 (NASB) But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. John 14:26 (NASB) When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, …John 15:26 (NASB) But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.John 16:13 (NASB) Jesus Christ himself taught that Christians should depend upon the Holy Spirit for guidance. This is found in the Scriptures is it not? How can this be a different Gospel? How can this a contradition? FOAMS
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Post by kkawohl on Apr 14, 2004 22:33:57 GMT -5
Jesus Christ himself taught that Christians should depend upon the Holy Spirit for guidance. This is found in the Scriptures is it not? How can this be a different Gospel? How can this a contradition? FOAMS Then why do YOU & many Christians depend on what has been written about Jesus & what Jesus said many years after his death?...and please stop copying those things here as a response. Try thinking for yourself, and if possible, write what the Holy Spirit has revealed to you.
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Post by marysia on Apr 15, 2004 6:57:18 GMT -5
The Gospel of Jesus Christ has not and will not ever change. Anyone who preaches a different gospel from the one in the Scriptures preaches a false gospel.I really don't see how you came to the conclusion I meant that "so are things 'okay' that aren't actually written in the Word?" Please explain the convoluted logic that led you to understanding that I hold this belief. FOAMS actually i questioned, didn't concluded (didn't mean to if you read it that way, sorry). when you wrote Those who followed were to keep it as it was -- not to change it, develop it, or add to it. that is what made me question. how can we not develop it? i agree on the basic tennets on the pornography issue (to choose one) about lust, fornication, so forth. however -- aren't we "developing" or "adding" to what therefore causes us to lust. aren't there new things - internet porn sites - that are not actually "written" but implied within the basic principles. i agree that we can not change God's word, but it can be explained differently within different situations. i believe that is the beauty of the Word and the reason it has withstood the test of time. It is the basic premis for life and how were are to live and love. maybe as "adults" we reazd to much into things and that is why we're told to come as little children -- completely open and fully trusting.
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Post by genesda on Apr 15, 2004 7:33:03 GMT -5
Gene, While I agree that no one should add "tradition" to the Scriptures to come up with doctrine, I'm not sure that's what Paul was writing about in this verse: And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.1 Corinthians 4:6 (KJV) Paul was cautioning the Corinthians (and all Christians ever after) not to honor any man any higher than the Scriptures allowed -- not to exceed the Scriptures limitations on honors that that can be applied so that the recipient of such honors wouldn't think to highly of him or herself. We see the dangers of such treatment today -- Star Treatment. Professional Athletes and Entertainers who are "worshiped" until they believe they can do no wrong. They come to believe they are above the civil laws and that moral laws don't exist for them. In Corinthians 4, Paul reminds us that being an Apostle is nothing to be puffed up about. They are made to suffer, made fools of, and put to death. Please don't take this as my disagreeing with you concern the Scriptures. I believe that the Scripture alone is God's Word. I don't believe that the Catholic Apostolic Tradition is a part of God's Word. FOAMS Also consider what scripture says about not adding to or taking away from the words opf the bible. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 15, 2004 7:36:26 GMT -5
so since our times have changed dramatically since the time of CHrist -- there are new evils and depths of moral deception that are not in the scriptures. i guess then, since the actual word(s) are not there - they don't matter. pornography, masterbation, terrorist, there were a few others too. so are things "okay" that aren't actually written in the Word? that is where we will differ. I believe the Word to be the foundation and yes, we do have to build the reality of the Word into today's generations. Marysia, do you actually believe the things you mention are new practices? Your reasoning still does not allow for inventing doctrines. By studying the bible for YOURSELF, you can determine what is evil without having anyone else tell you what it is. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 15, 2004 7:43:17 GMT -5
From:http://www.xsda.net/xsda-fyifaqstuff/xsda-freqasked.html#anchor41301 1Ki 17:21 -21 - And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the LORD and said, "O LORD my God, I pray, let this childs soul come back to him." Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived. John 11:11-14 - These things He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up." Then His disciples said, "Lord, if he sleeps he will get well." However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead". Thus our belief that when our bodies die our souls go to be with God. Blessings, Ann This is contrary to everything else written on the subject. There is no explanation of what a soul is other than Genesis2:7. Your belief in this one verse is exactly what I'm, talking about when I say all verses on a subject should be examined in order to get to the truth. The word "soul" can be replaced by "living being" and there will be no argument because the Hebrew word translaterd as "soul" and "living being" are the same.
Your misunderstanding of the context is why you're confused here. He could also have said, "Lord let his spirit come back to him", and this would be correct also.
[/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 15, 2004 7:48:24 GMT -5
Then why do YOU & many Christians depend on what has been written about Jesus & what Jesus said many years after his death?...and please stop copying those things here as a response. Try thinking for yourself, and if possible, write what the Holy Spirit has revealed to you. This might take a lot of time, but rest assured, the Holy Spirit will NEVER reveal anything that is contrary to the written words of the scriptures.
Example, the H.S. will never tell you that eating pork, shrimp,oysters, crabs etc. and anything else that has been revealed as sinful in the scriptures is now alright.
Lev. 11 is where the "clean" food is distinguished from the "unclean".
[/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 15, 2004 7:50:44 GMT -5
actually i questioned, didn't concluded (didn't mean to if you read it that way, sorry). when you wrote Those who followed were to keep it as it was -- not to change it, develop it, or add to it. that is what made me question. how can we not develop it? i agree on the basic tennets on the pornography issue (to choose one) about lust, fornication, so forth. however -- aren't we "developing" or "adding" to what therefore causes us to lust. aren't there new things - internet porn sites - that are not actually "written" but implied within the basic principles. i agree that we can not change God's word, but it can be explained differently within different situations. i believe that is the beauty of the Word and the reason it has withstood the test of time. It is the basic premis for life and how were are to live and love. maybe as "adults" we reazd to much into things and that is why we're told to come as little children -- completely open and fully trusting. Understanding what "lust" entails is not adding to anything. [/color]
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Post by HomeAtLast on Apr 15, 2004 8:57:52 GMT -5
From:http://www.xsda.net/xsda-fyifaqstuff/xsda-freqasked.html#anchor41301 1Ki 17:21 -21 - And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the LORD and said, "O LORD my God, I pray, let this childs soul come back to him." Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived. John 11:11-14 - These things He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up." Then His disciples said, "Lord, if he sleeps he will get well." However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead". Thus our belief that when our bodies die our souls go to be with God. Blessings, Ann This is contrary to everything else written on the subject. There is no explanation of what a soul is other than Genesis2:7. Your belief in this one verse is exactly what I'm, talking about when I say all verses on a subject should be examined in order to get to the truth. The word "soul" can be replaced by "living being" and there will be no argument because the Hebrew word translaterd as "soul" and "living being" are the same.
Your misunderstanding of the context is why you're confused here. He could also have said, "Lord let his spirit come back to him", and this would be correct also.
[/color][/quote] We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."(2Cor 5:8) Paul also notes in Philippians 1:23 his desire to depart and be in the presence of the Lord. His words, "be with Christ" would imply an immediate audience with Christ in heaven. This with the others that I posted certainly makes up more than one verse, yet you tell me I need to not go by one verse and then you tell me only ONE verse that I should go by on the subject. You are not practicing what you preach. Blessings, Ann
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