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Post by genesda on Apr 14, 2004 5:28:52 GMT -5
I'll take a crack at it! Of course this is how I see it. Others may see it differently. Mother of the Church! I see the Church as the mystical Body of Jesus Christ. And this Body is ALL Christians. It follows that if Jesus iis "The Church", Mary would be the Mother. A lot of "ifs". [/color] ask for your protection As a mother protects and guides her children, we ask for her spiritual assistance and guidance. Too bad she's dead and can't hear your requests. [/color] Teacher of hidden and silent sacrifice Agony she suffered to watch Her Son treated so cruely. To withstand this with dignity is something would should all strive for. How do you know she showed dignity? [/color] who come to meet us sinners As an intercessor we beleive She'll stand by the side of any who ask. She's dead and can't stand anywhere. [/color] dedicate to you To declare something fo value. Grant peace, justice and prosperity I see this as through intercession with Her Son, Jesus Christ can this only be done. Nice, but unbiblical. [/color] we entrust to your care all that we have and all that we are As a child places all his trust in their mother, and as Jesus trusted His Mother, we place our spiritual trust in Her. She's dead. Why not just trust Jesus? After all, He's the one who came here and gave His life and things we know nothing about for our sins. [/color] We wish to be entirely yours As Jesus was completely Hers, we wish the same for for us from Her. Where did you ever gte the idea that the creator is completely dedicated to the creation? [/color] Grant to our homes Again, through the power of Jesus, Her love. Mary can't grant anything to anyone. She's dead. [/color] protect our families As the "pro-type" Mother of the Holy Family, we ask for Her Motherly protection. grant us a great love Through the power of Jesus, Her perpetual love. I think that's all of them. But the prayer, when "nit-picked", does it an injustice. A summary of what I think of the prayer would be more in line with this: This is a prayer to the Mother of Jesus, in whom all are redeemed. Due to Her special place I'm sure She had in the Heart of Jesus, we trust that She also has His confidence. With this trust, we ask her to intercede on our behalf with Her Son. And as always, direct and reflect our love to Her Son, Jesus Christ. PS: genesda, no need to add your comments to this. We all already know your opinion that "she's dead and in the grave" and "cannot hear anyone". LOL!! Sorry, I answered line by line and didn't see your comment until I was at the end. The truth is that Mary is dead and can't hear anyone, so where does that leave your devotion/worship of Mary? Doesn't the fact that Mary is dead and in her grave negate any prayers directed to her? She can't hear you. so why do it? Are Rc people trying to score points with Jesus by worshipping His human vessel?
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Post by genesda on Apr 14, 2004 5:31:07 GMT -5
Why do you capitalize Mary's pronouns? That is only done for God and Jesus. This will be denied, but I believe that's because she is placed on a near equal footing with God. I heard a priest admit that Rc people worship Mary at one level, God at a higher level, and the saints at a level lower than Mary. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 14, 2004 5:33:33 GMT -5
Basically as a sign of respect. Nothing more than that. Deep down, I believe it's more than respect. Just look at the prayers offered to Mary. The words speak much more than simple "respect". [/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 14, 2004 5:36:02 GMT -5
In line in what respect... soul sleep or the undo honor that Catholic bestow upon Mary. BTW, Catholics are not required to pray to Mary. My point proved again, "Catholics" being used, not to identify ALL denominations, but specifically ROMAN catholics, which is what is meant whenever "Catholic" is used. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 14, 2004 5:37:27 GMT -5
Mary was the physical mother of Jesus. Jesus had no spiritual mother, because he was there in the beginning and all things were created through him. Jesus is the spiritual head of the church body and it isn't sound understanding to assume that because Mary was the physical mother of Jesus that she is also the spiritual mother of the chruch. While I don't doubt that Jesus trusted his mother, it is still an assumption. Prayers shouldn't be built on assumption. Good [post! [/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 14, 2004 5:40:21 GMT -5
Mary, mostly. I'm not SDA, I don't believe every jot and tittle that comes out of the RCC is straight from the devil. As I said before, I'm a fundy. However, I've found over time that a lot of pre-conceived notions I've had about the RCC are lacking. Maybe that's because you're listening to the Rc people who write here instead of listening to the words of their popes. Rc people are dedicated to what they believe. They just believe many things that aren't scriptural and also many things that are ANTI scriptural. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 14, 2004 5:42:40 GMT -5
True, but much is said to have been handed down as apostolic tradition, and hence is not assumed. I disagree. All of the apolostic tradition is what we have in the scriptures. Anything else is just assumption. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 14, 2004 5:47:01 GMT -5
tradition handed down -- told to tell -- that's apolostic tradition. traditions are more often than not -- not written down. have you traditions in your family? we have many - they are written no where but handed down generation through generation. now that we've computers, digital cameras and much higher educations - sure we're logging things but back in "the day" it was - tradition. look at football rivals -- there are traditions -- it's not "legally" in writting that this school or that HAS to be a rival -- it's a tradition. figured i'd try football in case you'd no family traditions. being "ethnic" i always assume everyone else does too so... forgive my generalization. Marysia, I respect your honesty, but you're talking apples and oranges. When Paul said "our traditions" he was speaking of the apostles, not anyone who came later and made up their own traditions. No one was given the authority to invent practices of worship or anything else. Paul, also said " do not exceed what is written". Their words are the only words written that came directly from Jesus. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 14, 2004 5:48:26 GMT -5
I guess apostolic tradition is based on the follwoing line of scripture: John 20:30 - And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book. Again, the apostles didn't go around making stuff up. They had their instructions and didn't modify them to suit anyone. [/color]
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Post by RealistState on Apr 14, 2004 6:08:08 GMT -5
LOL!! Sorry, I answered line by line and didn't see your comment until I was at the end. [/color][/quote] Somehow that does not surprise me that you did not read the whole post before you responded. The truth is that Mary is dead and can't hear anyone, so where does that leave your devotion/worship of Mary? Doesn't the fact that Mary is dead and in her grave negate any prayers directed to her? [/color][/quote] Your truth, not mine. I and many others beleive in the Biblical truth of eternal life. As such, Mary is with her Son as we speak in Heaven. She can't hear you. so why do it? Are Rc people trying to score points with Jesus by worshipping His human vessel?
[/color][/quote] Points? Not likely. Just following what Jesus taught is all.
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Post by RealistState on Apr 14, 2004 6:10:38 GMT -5
Why do you capitalize Mary's pronouns? That is only done for God and Jesus. This will be denied, but I believe that's because she is placed on a near equal footing with God. I heard a priest admit that Rc people worship Mary at one level, God at a higher level, and the saints at a level lower than Mary. [/color][/quote] Actually I've checked with other Roman Catholic sources, and I was grammatically incorrect to capitalize the pronouns. My mistake.
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Post by RealistState on Apr 14, 2004 6:12:08 GMT -5
Basically as a sign of respect. Nothing more than that. Deep down, I believe it's more than respect. Just look at the prayers offered to Mary. The words speak much more than simple "respect". [/color][/quote] See my last post. Also, I would suspect that you would "read" more into it than what was plainly written.
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Post by RealistState on Apr 14, 2004 6:16:08 GMT -5
Mary, mostly. I'm not SDA, I don't believe every jot and tittle that comes out of the RCC is straight from the devil. As I said before, I'm a fundy. However, I've found over time that a lot of pre-conceived notions I've had about the RCC are lacking. Maybe that's because you're listening to the Rc people who write here instead of listening to the words of their popes. Rc people are dedicated to what they believe. They just believe many things that aren't scriptural and also many things that are ANTI scriptural. [/color][/quote] Be careful stevec, soon he'll accuse you of being under the satanic Jesuit influence! For some reason gene does not like when brother Christians find kinship with (Roman) Catholics.
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Post by RealistState on Apr 14, 2004 6:18:37 GMT -5
I guess apostolic tradition is based on the follwoing line of scripture: John 20:30 - And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book. Again, the apostles didn't go around making stuff up. They had their instructions and didn't modify them to suit anyone. [/color][/quote] So you do not think that the apostles had any oral traditions handed down to their disciples?
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Post by marysia on Apr 14, 2004 6:27:08 GMT -5
tradition handed down -- told to tell -- that's apolostic tradition. traditions are more often than not -- not written down. have you traditions in your family? we have many - they are written no where but handed down generation through generation. now that we've computers, digital cameras and much higher educations - sure we're logging things but back in "the day" it was - tradition. look at football rivals -- there are traditions -- it's not "legally" in writting that this school or that HAS to be a rival -- it's a tradition. figured i'd try football in case you'd no family traditions. being "ethnic" i always assume everyone else does too so... forgive my generalization. Marysia, I respect your honesty, but you're talking apples and oranges. When Paul said "our traditions" he was speaking of the apostles, not anyone who came later and made up their own traditions. No one was given the authority to invent practices of worship or anything else. Paul, also said " do not exceed what is written". Their words are the only words written that came directly from Jesus. [/color][/quote] you stated when Paul said our traditions he was speaking of the apolstle... apolistic tradition...
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