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Post by Nicodemus on Apr 6, 2004 12:31:55 GMT -5
Of course not! I also believe that Mary is in heaven with her son. As are all of the saved. Mary was saved by grace just like I was. But she is not alive in the sense that Jesus is alive. If she were sinless she would have had a resurrection. She would be in her glorified body. That is still in the grave.
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Post by HomeAtLast on Apr 6, 2004 12:35:43 GMT -5
As are all of the saved. Mary was saved by grace just like I was. But she is not alive in the sense that Jesus is alive. If she were sinless she would have had a resurrection. She would be in her glorified body. That is still in the grave. And where would that be? Ironically, her body has never been found. No chapel is built at her tomb. It is just this simple....Jesus honored his Mother. We are to do our best to be like Jesus..Thus, we should honor is mother. Again, ironically, on EWTN right now there is a priest discussing this very matter. Blessings, Ann
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Post by genesda on Apr 7, 2004 6:23:37 GMT -5
I have not avoided any questions. I thought we were discussing what the RCC believes. I can not see into heaven. But, I do believe that Mary is there with Her Son. Mary and the saints bodies have died, not their souls. Then you admit here that you don't believe the bible in this matter. Since no one was ever given a soul, and the bible states plainly that man IS a living soul, then the souls no longer exists in death. Your Rc N.C.E. also says this. Now, what do you believe, God's word or man's? [/color] I am totally baffled on your belief that souls die with the body. I believe what the bible teaches. Maybe that's why you're baffled because I don't mix man's traditions or Satan's lies with the word of God as you seem to rely on. [/color] Jesus came to give us eternal life....I do not think that that would mean they die with the body and then are recreated. That makes no sense to me. Again, that's because you mix Satan's lies with God's word. The two versions conflict. [/color] People that Mary appears to are not asking her to appear and tell us what the future holds. They did nothing to make her appear. The children at Fatima were in a field being children. The prayer in my signature is from Fatima taught to the children by the angel that appeared before Our Lady did. Jesus said Satan can appear as an "angel of light". He appeared to Jesus that way in the wilderness. How quick the lessons of the scriptures are discarded in favor of what itchy ears wish to hear. [/color] The messages of Fatima do not go against the teachings of Jesus or the RCC would not okay them. Please! Your Rcc O.Ked the changing of God's sabbath commandment, without any biblical command to do so. [/color] They are not saying that we are to believe them, only that they do not go against God's teachings and we can make up our own minds about them. Blessings, ann They are opposed to God's teachings. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 7, 2004 6:24:37 GMT -5
Only sinners die, Mary died. Therefore, Mary was a sinner. What about Enoch and Elijah? [/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 7, 2004 6:34:45 GMT -5
Of course not! I also believe that Mary is in heaven with her son. This isn't biblical and is based on nothing more than a declaration from Rome.
Ask yourself a simple question. If the "soul" is already in heaven with Jesus enjoying all that heaven offers, why is there a nedd for a resurrection?
I used to ask myself this question often. I also used to wonder why I couldn't feel or understand my "soul" either. After all, if my "soul" was going to suffer for all eternity in the fires of hell, shouldn't I know what it was doing? If as taught in most churches that the soul can live it's own existance separate from my body, why can't I realize what it was doing? I was never satisfied not knowing the answer to the questions I had. That's why I'm so sure now that I know the biblical truth of what a soul is and what happens to it on the event of my death. I grew up and accepted God's truth and let man's fables alone. Ann, I used to believe as you do in this matter. The difference between us is that I have come to accept God's word, the bible, over man's. Things are so much clearer for me now.
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Post by genesda on Apr 7, 2004 6:38:11 GMT -5
And where would that be? Ironically, her body has never been found. No chapel is built at her tomb. It is just this simple....Jesus honored his Mother. We are to do our best to be like Jesus..Thus, we should honor is mother. Again, ironically, on EWTN right now there is a priest discussing this very matter. Blessings, Ann Her tomb is said to be in Turkey, at Ephesus her home. There are many bodies that can't be found today. That doesn't mean they are in heaven, it only means no one knows where they are. [/color]
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Post by HomeAtLast on Apr 7, 2004 11:27:22 GMT -5
I have not avoided any questions. I thought we were discussing what the RCC believes. I can not see into heaven. But, I do believe that Mary is there with Her Son. Mary and the saints bodies have died, not their souls. Then you admit here that you don't believe the bible in this matter. Since no one was ever given a soul, and the bible states plainly that man IS a living soul, then the souls no longer exists in death. Your Rc N.C.E. also says this. Now, what do you believe, God's word or man's? [/color] I am totally baffled on your belief that souls die with the body. I believe what the bible teaches. Maybe that's why you're baffled because I don't mix man's traditions or Satan's lies with the word of God as you seem to rely on. [/color] Jesus came to give us eternal life....I do not think that that would mean they die with the body and then are recreated. That makes no sense to me. Again, that's because you mix Satan's lies with God's word. The two versions conflict. [/color] People that Mary appears to are not asking her to appear and tell us what the future holds. They did nothing to make her appear. The children at Fatima were in a field being children. The prayer in my signature is from Fatima taught to the children by the angel that appeared before Our Lady did. Jesus said Satan can appear as an "angel of light". He appeared to Jesus that way in the wilderness. How quick the lessons of the scriptures are discarded in favor of what itchy ears wish to hear. [/color] The messages of Fatima do not go against the teachings of Jesus or the RCC would not okay them. Please! Your Rcc O.Ked the changing of God's sabbath commandment, without any biblical command to do so. [/color] They are not saying that we are to believe them, only that they do not go against God's teachings and we can make up our own minds about them. Blessings, ann They are opposed to God's teachings. [/color][/quote] I believe in the Bible and the oral teachings, as the Bible says we should. I believe that the body is merely a shell housing the soul and to be out of the body is to be with Christ, as the Bible says. As for the need for a resurrection, God will let us know when it is time. I know what my soul is doing, because who I am is my soul. The feelings and characteristics and personality of who I am is my soul. So I do know what my soul is doing. I am sorry that you do not know. You say that I am mixing lies with truth about the soul being recreated. Explain it to me then. Why is would God let our souls die and then recreate them? Blessings, Ann
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Post by HomeAtLast on Apr 7, 2004 11:39:42 GMT -5
And where would that be? Ironically, her body has never been found. No chapel is built at her tomb. It is just this simple....Jesus honored his Mother. We are to do our best to be like Jesus..Thus, we should honor is mother. Again, ironically, on EWTN right now there is a priest discussing this very matter. Blessings, Ann Her tomb is said to be in Turkey, at Ephesus her home. There are many bodies that can't be found today. That doesn't mean they are in heaven, it only means no one knows where they are. [/color][/quote] gene, Many places claim the tomb of Mary. With something this important I would think that some evidence would have been found if her body were there. Here is a write up of one in Jerusalem that I found at www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/san/TSmary.html: Tomb of the Virgin Mary (in Jerusalem) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ After crossing the Brook of Kidron, the first monument we see on the left at the foot of the Mount of Olives is the Church of the Assumption erected upon the tomb that received the mortal remains of the Blessed Virgin. From this Tomb she was taken into heaven, for not being subject to the yoke of sin she bore not the consequences of sin, which are the corruption of the flesh. Therefore, she only went through the tomb but did not delay there; her tomb became the shrine of her glorious Assumption into Heaven. The Church built on the Tomb of Mary in the Kidron Valley That Mary, at the end of her earthly existence, was assumed into heaven, was defined as an article of faith, on Nov. 1, 1950. About the death and assumption of Mary into heaven is described in the apocryphal writing "The transition of the Virgin" or "Dormition" of Mary. The author of this work gathers the traditions on the infant church since the apostolic era. The book contains many symbolic references typical of the Jewish-Christian community. It is for this reason that this book had for long been discarded completely. But the book gives witness to the veneration since the second century when the site was used transformed into a sanctuary. The first church, a countryside chapel, was built some time about the beginning of the fifth century and consecrated by the Patriarch of Jerusalem Juvenal (422-458) just after the Council of Calcedon (431). Thereafter a new Church was built over the tomb of Mary which thus became the crypt in which was venerated the Tomb of the Virgin. The upper church was completely destroyed before the arrival of the Crusaders. When the Crusaders arrived they found only a little edicule over the Tomb. Godfrey de Bouillon built a monastery here, the well known Abbey of St. Mary of the Valley of Jehoshaphat for the Benedictines of Cluny, to whose care he entrusted the Church. The Crusaders rebuilt the Church about the year 1130. This upper church was again destroyed together with the monastery by Saladin after 1187. The Muslims respected the crypt for the veneration towards the "Holy Mother of prophet Jesus" but nonetheless used the masonry of the upper church to build the walls of Jerusalem. The ruin of the sacred monument would nonetheless have been inevitable, mainly because of the floods that continuously damaged it, had not the Franciscans entered into possession of the Church in the second half of the fourteenth century. From that time the Franciscans saw to the upkeep of the building, defraying the expenses of many important restorations. The Sons of St. Francis had the exclusive and peaceful possession of the tomb of the Blessed Virgin for more than two hundred years, until the seventeenth century, when began the intrigues and violence to expel from this shrine the representatives of the Catholic Church and those of the Latin rite. After various vicissitudes, the definitive usurpation took place in 1757 and has never since been repaired. At present Catholics, in protest, do not hold services in the Sanctuary where even the Moslems have a special place for their prayers. The Latins in fact may celebrate officially in the sanctuary three times a year, including on 15th August, the feast of the Assumption. Since 1757 the Greek Orthodox rite have enjoyed the possession of the venerable shrine which they share with the Armenians. The Syrians, the Copts, and the Abyssinians have minor rights. The floods of 1972 made it possible for the archaeologists not only to clear the area but also to have the area around the crypt excavated. These excavations were carried out by the late Fr. Bellarmino Bagatti. He concluded, from the excavations, that the tradition of Mary's tomb in the valley of Johosaphat is clearly marked in a cemetery in use during the first century. Furthermore the tomb itself, originally made up of three chambers, was dug out with the same techniques used in tombs of the first century, like the Holy Sepulchre and the Kings' tombs. The actual tomb was the inner chamber of the whole complex. These archaeological findings, corroborated by literary documents (Palestinian, Syrian, Ethiopian and Greek) of the II-IV centuries together with the constant liturgical devotion are witness to the belief about the tomb of Mary next to Gethsemani since the beginning of the Christian era. It is from these far away origins that comes the celebration of the feast of the Assumption on August 15 since the infant Church, at this tomb, solemnly celebrated the feast of the Assumption of Mary. The actual façade of the edifice on Mary's tomb is the Crusader's austere and solemn construction. A long stairway, on whose flanks the wife of Baldwin III and the mother or Boemondo III (prince of Antioch) were buried, leads down towards the tomb of Mary. Here too was buried queen Melisanda, first daughter of Baldwin II, king of Jerusalem who was given in marriage to Folco d'Angiò. Suspected of adultery by her husband she had to suffer greatly. On the death of her husband she ruled the Latin Kingdom until the age of adulthood of her son Baldwin III whence she retired to Nablus dedicating her life in charitable deeds. Blessings, Ann
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Post by genesda on Apr 8, 2004 5:33:47 GMT -5
gene, Many places claim the tomb of Mary. With something this important I would think that some evidence would have been found if her body were there. Important? To who? [/color]
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Post by HomeAtLast on Apr 8, 2004 8:44:08 GMT -5
gene, Many places claim the tomb of Mary. With something this important I would think that some evidence would have been found if her body were there. Important? To who? [/color][/quote] All of the people in the different countries that claim her tomb is there, for example. To me every aspect of Jesus' life is important, including his Mother. Blessings, Ann
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Post by genesda on Apr 12, 2004 5:18:20 GMT -5
you: I have not avoided any questions. I thought we were discussing what the RCC believes. I can not see into heaven. But, I do believe that Mary is there with Her Son. Mary and the saints bodies have died, not their souls. me: Then you admit here that you don't believe the bible in this matter. Since no one was ever given a soul, and the bible states plainly that man IS a living soul, then the souls no longer exists in death. Your Rc N.C.E. also says this. Now, what do you believe, God's word or man's? you: I am totally baffled on your belief that souls die with the body. That's because you don't accept what the bible says concerning what a soul is and how it came into existance. [/color] me: I believe what the bible teaches. Maybe that's why you're baffled because I don't mix man's traditions or Satan's lies with the word of God as you seem to rely on. you: Jesus came to give us eternal life....I do not think that that would mean they die with the body and then are recreated. That makes no sense to me. There is no separate soul and body. Man IS a living soul as scripture says. When man dies, the living soul is dead until the resurrection. [/color] me: Again, that's because you mix Satan's lies with God's word. The two versions conflict. you: People that Mary appears to are not asking her to appear and tell us what the future holds. They did nothing to make her appear. The children at Fatima were in a field being children. The prayer in my signature is from Fatima taught to the children by the angel that appeared before Our Lady did. me: Jesus said Satan can appear as an "angel of light". He appeared to Jesus that way in the wilderness. How quick the lessons of the scriptures are discarded in favor of what itchy ears wish to hear. you: The messages of Fatima do not go against the teachings of Jesus or the RCC would not okay them. The teachings of the Rcc are false according to scripture. Just because something appears to be like the original doesn't make it so. That's why SCRIPTURAL TEACHINGS should be searched for instead of a scriptutre here or there that seems to verify what is being taught. [/color] me: Please! Your Rcc O.Ked the changing of God's sabbath commandment, without any biblical command to do so. you: They are not saying that we are to believe them, only that they do not go against God's teachings and we can make up our own minds about them. Blessings, ann me: They are opposed to God's teachings. you: I believe in the Bible and the oral teachings, as the Bible says we should. O.K., so when was the last oral teaching from any of the apostles spoken? [/color] you: I believe that the body is merely a shell housing the soul and to be out of the body is to be with Christ, as the Bible says. As I said, one scripture that is misunderstood is used to verify something taught in error. It doesn't matter that the way this one verse is used is contrary to many other valid teachings on the same subject. Explain why both Peter and Paul said they didn't expect to get their eternal reward until Jesus appeared? [/color] you: As for the need for a resurrection, God will let us know when it is time. He has already told us what it is about. You don't accept what He said because it doesn't fit in with Rc and most Protestant thelology [/color] you: I know what my soul is doing, because who I am is my soul. The feelings and characteristics and personality of who I am is my soul. So I do know what my soul is doing. I am sorry that you do not know. You know what? You just spoke a biblical truth. You know what your soul is doing because YOU ARE A LIVING SOUL! When I was confused, it was because I believed as you do concerning a separate soul. [/color] you: You say that I am mixing lies with truth about the soul being recreated. Explain it to me then. Why is would God let our souls die and then recreate them? Blessings, Ann Ann, you're talking in circles and you don't even realize it. No where does scripture ever speak of man receiving a soul. Man IS a living soul. A soul is a combination of the dust of the ground and the spirit/breath of life from God. With those two elements being mixed, a living soul/man is created. If any of these two ingredients are removed, there is no more living soul. All that remains is the form that returns to the dust of the ground. Dirt and God's breath/spirit equals life. If God's spirit is removed, death occurs and all that is left is what was there before the mixing of ingredients. This is the biblical teaching on this subject.
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Post by genesda on Apr 12, 2004 5:25:04 GMT -5
All of the people in the different countries that claim her tomb is there, for example. To me every aspect of Jesus' life is important, including his Mother. Blessings, Ann Why? You never knew her and the bible contains very little about Mary. I believe Mary was a God fearing person. I also believe many things about Mary, all of them positive with one exception. Mary forgot Jesus in Jerusalem when He was 12 years old and didn't find Him again until 3 days later. This was irresponsible for someone who was given the responsibility to safeguard the Savior.
Now I know angels were watching over Him and protecting Him, but speaking from a human standpoint, Mary was derelict in her responsibility and I believe God was showing us that she was just human and could get caught up in her own thoughts and actions as we all do, and just forgot about Jesus for a time. God gave us the example of how Mary was just like us, but the Rcc has made more of her than God intended. [/color]
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Post by keikikoka on Apr 12, 2004 10:47:45 GMT -5
Gene... you are still ignoring the fact that the greek word translated soul means something completly different than the hebrew word translated soul.
The hebrew word translated soul, nephesh, such as in Genesis 2:7, just means a breating thing. Nothing special. When God breathed into dirt adam started to breath.
In greek the word translated soul, psuche, means the seat of emotions or the mind. This is a different concept than in the old testament.
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Post by stevec on Apr 12, 2004 11:59:12 GMT -5
Here's a prayer to Mary I found that causes me some concern. Could some of our Catholic brethren please explain the sections I have put in bold?
O Immaculate Virgin, Mother of the true God and Mother of the Church!, who from this place reveal your clemency and your pity to all those who ask for your protection, hear the prayer that we address to you with filial trust, and present it to your Son Jesus, our sole Redeemer. Mother of Mercy, Teacher of hidden and silent sacrifice, to you, who come to meet us sinners, we dedicate on this day all our being and all our love. We also dedicate to you our life, our work, our joys, our infirmities and our sorrows. Grant peace, justice and prosperity to our peoples; for we entrust to your care all that we have and all that we are, our Lady and Mother. We wish to be entirely yours and to walk with you along the way of complete faithfulness to Jesus Christ in His Church; hold us always with your loving hand. Virgin of Guadalupe, Mother of the Americas, we pray to you for all the Bishops, that they may lead the faithful along paths of intense Christian life, of love and humble service of God and souls. Contemplate this immense harvest, and intercede with the Lord that He may instill a hunger for holiness in the whole people of God, and grant abundant vocations of priests and religious, strong in the faith and zealous dispensers of God’s mysteries. Grant to our homes the grace of loving and respecting life in its beginnings, with the same love with which you conceived in your womb the life of the Son of God. Blessed Virgin Mary, protect our families, so that they may always be united, and bless the upbringing of our children. Our hope, look upon us with compkmtyolpion, teach us to go continually to Jesus and, if we fall, help us to rise again, to return to Him, by means of the confession of our faults and sins in the Sacrament of Penance, which gives peace to the soul. We beg you to grant us a great love for all the holy Sacraments, which are, as it were, the signs that your Son left us on earth. Thus, Most Holy Mother, with the peace of God in our conscience, with our hearts free from evil and hatred, we will be able to bring to all true joy and true peace, which come to us from your son, our Lord Jesus Christ, who with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.
(His Holiness John Paul II Mexico, January 1979. Visiting Her Basilica during his first foreign trip as Pope.)
Can someone please explain to me how Mary can do these things?
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Post by RealistState on Apr 12, 2004 18:24:30 GMT -5
All of the people in the different countries that claim her tomb is there, for example. To me every aspect of Jesus' life is important, including his Mother. Blessings, Ann Why? You never knew her and the bible contains very little about Mary. I believe Mary was a God fearing person. I also believe many things about Mary, all of them positive with one exception. Mary forgot Jesus in Jerusalem when He was 12 years old and didn't find Him again until 3 days later. This was irresponsible for someone who was given the responsibility to safeguard the Savior.
Now I know angels were watching over Him and protecting Him, but speaking from a human standpoint, Mary was derelict in her responsibility and I believe God was showing us that she was just human and could get caught up in her own thoughts and actions as we all do, and just forgot about Jesus for a time. God gave us the example of how Mary was just like us, but the Roman Catholic Church has made more of her than God intended. [/color][/quote] Irresponsible? Not likely! You're overlooking a simple fact of life during those days. The women were segregated from the men. While traveling, the men were together, as were the women. And Jesus, who was about to considered a man, should have been with his father Joseph.
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