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Post by RealistState on Aug 19, 2004 20:17:27 GMT -5
What Christ said was metaphorical. But the interesting thing is that His body was broken and His blood was shed for us on the cross. You say that at the last supper He literally gave some of His flesh and blood to His disciples to eat and drink. If that was the case, then Christ must have slit His wrists so that they bled and cut off some of His flesh. Ouch! And even if He did turn the wine into blood and the bread into flesh, I imagine that His disciples would have been pretty disgusted. Any sane person would be. Or perhaps Christ hypnotized them and suggested to them that it was okay to drink human flesh and drink human blood. But I don't think that Christ approves of cannibalism. Do you? Christian. I assume your question is rhetorical, so there will be no need to respond. In any event, it would appear that you have an issue with transubstantiation. This is the doctrine of the conversion of one substance into another (what was formerly one thing, is now another). Many Christian churches have this doctrine holding that the bread and wine of the Eucharist are transformed into the body and blood of Jesus, although their appearances remain the same that first took place during the Last Supper. Do you think Jesus could have been capable of such an action? Do you think that when he spoke these words, it was metaphorical because transubstantiation is impossible? Matthew 26:26-28 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, "Take and eat; this is my body." Then he took a cup, gave thanks, 16 and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Aug 20, 2004 6:13:42 GMT -5
RealistState,
I'm perfecty aware of the scriptural pkmtyolpage. Christ was using metaphorical language - something that some Christians don't understand. Christ supposedly "transubstantiating" the bread and the wine of Holy Communion into His flesh and blood so that we can consume Him does not strike me as being at all credible. If it really happens, why can't we see it? Why can't we taste His flesh and blood? Do you really believe that our Lord Jesus Christ is in Heaven continually increasing or multiplying His flesh and His blood so that we can eat of it and drink of it? If so, where in the Bible does it say that? Where does it say that the bread and the wine literally becomes the flesh and the blood of Christ? That flesh cannot be the flesh that was crucified for us, that blood cannot be the blood that was shed for us. It's worth bearing in mind that Christ often used metaphors and parables when speaking to His audience.
Christian.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Aug 20, 2004 6:44:16 GMT -5
We've made it to the 100th page, folks! Well done all of you! YIPPEE!!! O.K., maybe I am being a little bit over the top. ;D
Christian.
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Aug 20, 2004 8:32:52 GMT -5
We've made it to the 100th page, folks! Well done all of you! YIPPEE!!! O.K., maybe I am being a little bit over the top. ;D Christian. Yes, you are... there have been quite a few threads that have gone over 100 pages. Not a very big deal.
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Post by larrygn on Aug 20, 2004 10:30:43 GMT -5
LauraJean: You are rigfht, the people on Lutherquest make careful note of the fact that the Pope is ony the AntiChrist as long as he believes that he is the heir to Peter on earth ( I think this is a copout, as all die in the office ), so the separation of the Pope and the Papacy are not effectively meaningful. Lutehrans base this all upon Luther's polital letters to the Schmalakic princes, trying to give them backbone to stand up to the HRE, and protect the new reformed churches. I think his statement were much more politcal than theological; however, he never responds to this later.
marysia: You make some good points. Why should we take anyone else's interreptation, what we need are facts.
AlphaOmega: Let's see, you say Christ speaks in metaphors about the body and blood, yet the comments in Revelations on the 12,000 x 12 are firm factual history we can not interrept? Is this correct? HUM!!!
keikikoka:
Some excellant points, and I would like to see them responded to on Lutherquest.org. I would like to see how these people handle someone like you.
ALL:
From what I understand most of you to say on communion, I don't think many Lutehran churches would deny you the table, if you were to make your positions known to a pastor of the congregation if you were to visit. your positions are virtually the same as the Lutheran.. The Lutherans believe that the bread and wine are true body and blood, but in a spiritual manner, not physical substances, and definitely not CONSUBSTANIATION. By the way, you all might want to check Lutherquest.org topic of creationism when Traffic Demon gets on in a few days, this ought to be good. Larry
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Post by AlphaOmega on Aug 20, 2004 13:25:38 GMT -5
LauraJean: AlphaOmega: Let's see, you say Christ speaks in metaphors about the body and blood, yet the comments in Revelations on the 12,000 x 12 are firm factual history we can not interrept? Is this correct? HUM!!! Well, I've shown you the pkmtyolpage which clearly states the fact that the 144,000 Jewish believers will come from the twelve tribes of Israel If you can't accept what it says, then why don't you explain what it means? I've also questioned why the bread and the wine of Holy Communion would transubstantiate into the flesh and blood of Christ. Nobody has been able to adequately answer my questions about it.
Christian.
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Post by christian on Aug 14, 2005 9:08:01 GMT -5
In this case I believe Jesus was quite clear: JN 6:53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Translated: "I tell you the truth, unless you follow my teachings and abide in me, you have no life in you."
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
"Whoever does what I tell him has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
"For my flesh and my blood is life itself."
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him"Whoever receives my words of eternal life remains in me, and I in him."
Christian.
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Post by HomeAtLast on Aug 14, 2005 22:30:02 GMT -5
In this case I believe Jesus was quite clear: JN 6:53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Translated: "I tell you the truth, unless you follow my teachings and abide in me, you have no life in you."
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
"Whoever does what I tell him has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
"For my flesh and my blood is life itself."
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him"Whoever receives my words of eternal life remains in me, and I in him."
Christian.And yet in John chapter 6 disciples of Jesus who had accepted and believed in him left him because they could not accept what he was saying about him being the living bread of eternal life. He did not stop them and say "stop, come one guys I did not mean that literally". After speaking of their ancestors who ate the manna from heaven and still died, he said that he was the manna from heaven that would bring eternal life. God's blessings, Ann
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Post by christian on Sept 6, 2005 11:46:50 GMT -5
The Papacy is not the AC, unless he makes his right hand man (or is it left hand man?) Pope.
Remember, it will be a Satanic trinity of Satan, his evil one world ruler, and false prophet. I've heard it said that the next Pope will be the false prophet, and he will call himself "Peter". He may even claim to be the one true "Rock" of the one true "Holy" Roman Catholic (universal) Church. Who knows?
God Bless, Andy.
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Post by marysia on Sept 6, 2005 12:45:35 GMT -5
The Papacy is not the AC, unless he makes his right hand man (or is it left hand man?) Pope. Remember, it will be a Satanic trinity of Satan, his evil one world ruler, and false prophet. I've heard it said that the next Pope will be the false prophet, and he will call himself "Peter". He may even claim to be the one true "Rock" of the one true "Holy" Roman Catholic (universal) Church. Who knows? God Bless, Andy. why not go back to the beginning of this thread when JP2 was the pope -- well he has since died and a new pope has come into play. he is the physical leader of the flock called the roman catholic church. he leads us to CHRIST and the HOLY TRINITY. it's funny but i'd be curious from who you've "heard the next pope will be the anti-christ". i believe that was a comment at the beginning of this thread -- so, do you think Benedict is the anti-crist then or will it just always be "the next one". i just wish people would worry about the here and now.
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Post by christian on Sept 7, 2005 8:36:14 GMT -5
The Papacy is not the AC, unless he makes his right hand man (or is it left hand man?) Pope. Remember, it will be a Satanic trinity of Satan, his evil one world ruler, and false prophet. I've heard it said that the next Pope will be the false prophet, and he will call himself "Peter". He may even claim to be the one true "Rock" of the one true "Holy" Roman Catholic (universal) Church. Who knows? God Bless, Andy. why not go back to the beginning of this thread when JP2 was the pope -- well he has since died and a new pope has come into play. he is the physical leader of the flock called the roman catholic church. he leads us to CHRIST and the HOLY TRINITY. it's funny but i'd be curious from who you've "heard the next pope will be the anti-christ". i believe that was a comment at the beginning of this thread -- so, do you think Benedict is the anti-crist then or will it just always be "the next one". i just wish people would worry about the here and now. A Christian friend of a Christian friend of mine heard that the televangelist Mr. Benny Hinn had received this revelation from God. And when I get hold of a copy of everything that God revealed to him about the End Times, I shall post it to you. God Bless, Andy.
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Post by marysia on Sept 7, 2005 13:53:18 GMT -5
no need to post it Andy but thanks for the offer. i don't believe mr hinn is old enough to have been the one that started the original premis to which this thread is dedicated. i find it amusing that this was talked about for every pope i've ever know and i'm sure several before them. i know there is a phrase out there somewhere about saying the same thing over and over and eventually it'll be right.... while i do not believe that this pope and hopefully none in my or my families life time will be the a/c. i can believe that if the Rcc grows in true members that the position of pope would be highly coveted by satan as a way of atempting to turn people from Chirst & God. However, what he doesn't understand is that with JP2 and now Benedict, many Rcc are becoming true believers and not just "catholic by birth" but people who truly believe - no matter who comes into the position - they would not follow any person who did not speak of Christ as our only Saviour.
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Post by christian on Sept 8, 2005 7:49:20 GMT -5
no need to post it Andy but thanks for the offer. i don't believe mr hinn is old enough to have been the one that started the original premis to which this thread is dedicated. i find it amusing that this was talked about for every pope i've ever know and i'm sure several before them. i know there is a phrase out there somewhere about saying the same thing over and over and eventually it'll be right.... while i do not believe that this pope and hopefully none in my or my families life time will be the a/c. i can believe that if the Rcc grows in true members that the position of pope would be highly coveted by satan as a way of atempting to turn people from Chirst & God. However, what he doesn't understand is that with JP2 and now Benedict, many Rcc are becoming true believers and not just "catholic by birth" but people who truly believe - no matter who comes into the position - they would not follow any person who did not speak of Christ as our only Saviour. Marysia, Mr. Benny Hinn is being powerfully used by God. He was apparently going to Jerusalem when God told him to go back home and pray for 3 days, and he was told not to answer any phone calls or answer the door. He was given a vision of what was going to happen in the remaining years before the Lord returns. God told him to only share it with Christian leaders, as it's very deep and would disturb new Christians. Mr. Hinn has met Pope John Paul II, something that I imagine no die-hard Protestant or Seventh Day Adventist would have dreamt of doing. The English Anglican Church is making progress with regard to unifying with the Church of Rome, and is considering promoting the Virgin Mary to the position of co-redeemer with our Lord Jesus Christ. Now who, I wonder, could be behind that? The next Pope may very well be the false prophet. God is revealing things to those who will listen to him, and they are sharing these things with other believers. God Bless, Andy.
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Post by christian on Sept 8, 2005 9:09:57 GMT -5
BTW, I'm pleased to hear that many Catholics are giving their lives to the Lord Jesus Christ, and I look forward to the day when God tells them all to leave the RCC. That has to happen.
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pete
New Member
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Post by pete on Sept 8, 2005 9:38:18 GMT -5
BTW, I'm pleased to hear that many Catholics are giving their lives to the Lord Jesus Christ, and I look forward to the day when God tells them all to leave the RCC. That has to happen. Giving one's life to the Lord Jesus Christ is now and has always been a requirement for full communion in the Catholic Church. That bit about Mary being co-Redeemer is very out of context and highly misunderstood. Anti-Catholics have a field day trying to make a case for idolatry when the fact is that Catholic doctrine admits to only one God in three persons. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And only one redeemer, Jesus the Christ. I think some non-Catholics feel threatened by the fullness and richness of the Catholic faith and therefore persecute it to validate their own need feel right outside of it. I am offended by your unchristian Catholic bashing. See: www.creighton.edu/CollaborativeMinistry/Lent/baptismalpromises.html
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