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Post by LauraJean on Aug 18, 2004 12:41:59 GMT -5
Read the Gospels. Most of the lessons Jesus taught were figurative. In this case I believe Jesus was quite clear: JN 6:53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in himPaul was pretty direct too: 1CO 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.If the bread and wine were merely symbolic, how could partaking wrongly result in judgement? Conversely, given what Jesus said in John 6, how could partaking in something that is merely symbolic result in eternal life? Blessings, LJ
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Post by LauraJean on Aug 18, 2004 12:47:56 GMT -5
Christ Jesus said to Simon ...but also I say to you that you are a stone ...Regarding this, my Bible has it slightly (but significantly) different: MT 16:15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
MT 16:16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
MT 16:17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. (NIV) Jesus doesn't say "You are a rock," He says "Your name is Peter" and on the rock of Simon/Peter's faith ("upon this rock") Jesus would build His church. I checked KJV, NKJV and RSV and none of them have the article "a" in the text. Blessings, LJ
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Post by keikikoka on Aug 18, 2004 18:32:19 GMT -5
Jesus says "su ei petros"-"you are a stone" There is no definate article "ho" Jesus builds his church upon the "petrai" the rocky ledge or rock shelf.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Aug 19, 2004 4:42:27 GMT -5
In this case I believe Jesus was quite clear: JN 6:53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in himPaul was pretty direct too: 1CO 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.If the bread and wine were merely symbolic, how could partaking wrongly result in judgement? Conversely, given what Jesus said in John 6, how could partaking in something that is merely symbolic result in eternal life? Blessings, LJ Laura, When we take Holy Communion, we remember what our Lord Jesus Christ did for us by dying on the cross. He was crucified so that by faith in Him we can be reconciled to His Father in Heaven. If we cheapen what He went through for us by eating the bread and drinking the wine of the Holy Communion in an unworthy manner, we eat and drink His judgement upon ourselves. Christian.
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Post by RealistState on Aug 19, 2004 5:18:59 GMT -5
RealistState, The bread and the wine of the last supper were used by Christ to symbolize what was going to happen to Him on the cross. When we take Holy Communion we remember what Christ did for us. His body was broken and His blood was shed so that by faith in Him we can be reconciled with His Father in Heaven. Christian. Symbolic? "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:53–56). So you're saying that when Jesus spoke these words, he was speaking symbolically? And yet when the Jews asked him about how the the Father sent them manna from Heaven, the manna wasn't symbolic, it was real.
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Post by RealistState on Aug 19, 2004 5:20:54 GMT -5
Laura, When we take Holy Communion, we remember what our Lord Jesus Christ did for us by dying on the cross. He was crucified so that by faith in Him we can be reconciled to His Father in Heaven. If we cheapen what He went through for us by eating the bread and drinking the wine of the Holy Communion in an unworthy manner, we eat and drink His judgement upon ourselves. Christian. I absolutely agree with you on this.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Aug 19, 2004 5:55:55 GMT -5
Symbolic? "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:53–56). So you're saying that when Jesus spoke these words, he was speaking symbolically? What Christ said was metaphorical. But the interesting thing is that His body was broken and His blood was shed for us on the cross. You say that at the last supper He literally gave some of His flesh and blood to His disciples to eat and drink. If that was the case, then Christ must have slit His wrists so that they bled and cut off some of His flesh. Ouch! And even if He did turn the wine into blood and the bread into flesh, I imagine that His disciples would have been pretty disgusted. Any sane person would be. Or perhaps Christ hypnotized them and suggested to them that it was okay to drink human flesh and drink human blood. But I don't think that Christ approves of cannibalism. Do you? Christian.
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Post by LauraJean on Aug 19, 2004 9:17:40 GMT -5
Jesus says "su ei petros"-"you are a stone" There is no definate article "ho" Jesus builds his church upon the "petrai" the rocky ledge or rock shelf. Hang on, I'm confused. You translate the verse as "you are a stone" and then say there is no article ("a"). Can you help with this? Anyway, getting back to when "is" means "is" and when it doesn't.... Let's take another quick peek at John 6, paying special attention to verses 60-64; JN 6:49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
JN 6:52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
JN 6:53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
JN 6:60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
JN 6:61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe."The Jews hearing Jesus's words knew that he was not speaking metaphorically but literally which is why they grumbled at the difficulty of His teaching. Knowing this, did Jesus say, "Hey, wait a minute! I was only being symbolic!"? No. He said "I know this is difficult but that's the way it is and not all of you are going to 'get it.'" Would Jesus have allowed this division/confusion to exist if the teaching weren't literal --and important? "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life" "You can believe me and have life or you can disbelieve me and not have life." Blessings, LJ
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Post by AlphaOmega on Aug 19, 2004 9:37:21 GMT -5
Hang on, I'm confused. You translate the verse as "you are a stone" and then say there is no article ("a"). Can you help with this? Anyway, getting back to when "is" means "is" and when it doesn't.... Let's take another quick peek at John 6, paying special attention to verses 60-64; JN 6:49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
JN 6:52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
JN 6:53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
JN 6:60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
JN 6:61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe."The Jews hearing Jesus's words knew that he was not speaking metaphorically but literally which is why they grumbled at the difficulty of His teaching. Knowing this, did Jesus say, "Hey, wait a minute! I was only being symbolic!"? No. He said "I know this is difficult but that's the way it is and not all of you are going to 'get it.'" Would Jesus have allowed this division/confusion to exist if the teaching weren't literal --and important? "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life" "You can believe me and have life or you can disbelieve me and not have life." Blessings, LJ Laura, We Christians are told to "feed" on God's Word, which is the Bible. Does that mean that we must physically eat every Bible we see? Christian.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Aug 19, 2004 10:26:56 GMT -5
In this case I believe Jesus was quite clear: JN 6:53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Translated: "I tell you the truth, unless you follow my teachings, you have no life in you."
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
"Whoever does what I tell him has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
"For my flesh and my blood is life itself."
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him"Whoever receives my words of eternal life remains in me, and I in him."
Christian.
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Post by marysia on Aug 19, 2004 11:01:21 GMT -5
and that is one translation/interpretation.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Aug 19, 2004 11:15:23 GMT -5
and that is one translation/interpretation. True. But do you agree or disagree with it? And if you disagree, why? Christian.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Aug 19, 2004 11:29:40 GMT -5
If it's true that the bread and the wine of the Holy Communion turn into the flesh and blood of Christ, then that must surely mean that Christ is still being crucified. Unless, of course, there's some other explanation..... Christian.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Aug 19, 2004 12:46:43 GMT -5
Almost there.....
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Post by keikikoka on Aug 19, 2004 14:20:36 GMT -5
;D There is no definite article, ie, "the" It is either a stone (indefinite) or the stone (definite) In greek it lacks the definite article, meaning it is indefinite.
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