|
Post by Cohdra on Jul 19, 2003 0:03:13 GMT -5
I found a very interesting (Baptist) site, that points out several reasons why the Papacy cannot possibly be the AC. It's very long, but very well done: www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Antichrist/anti_01.htm1. The term "Antichrist" whether employed in the singular or the plural, denotes a person or persons, and never a system. We may speak correctly of an and-Christian system, just as we may refer to a Christian organization; but it is just as inadmissible and erroneous to refer to any system or organization as "the Antichrist" or "an antichrist," as it would be to denominate any Christian system or organization "the Christ," or "a Christ." Just as truly as the Christ is the title of a single person the Son of God, so the Antichrist will be a single person, the son of Satan.
2. The Antichrist will be a lineal descendant of Abraham, a Jew. We shall not stop to submit the proof for this, as that will be given in our next chapter; suffice it now to say that none but a full-blooded Jew could ever expect to palm himself off on the Jewish people as their long-expected Messiah. Here is an argument that has never been met by those who believe that the pope is the Man of Sin. So far as we are aware no Israelite has ever occupied the Papal See—certainly none has done so since the seventh century.
3. In line with the last argument, we read in Zechariah 11:16,17, "For, lo, I will raise up a Shepherd in the land which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young ones, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces. Woe to the Idol Shepherd that leaveth the flock! The sword (of Divine judgment) shall be upon his arm (his power), and upon his right eye (intelligence): his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened." "The land" here is, of course, Palestine, as is ever the case in Scripture with this expression. This could not possibly apply to the line of the Popes.
4. In 2 Thessalonians 2:4 we learn that the Man of Sin shall sit "in the Temple of God," and St. Peter’s at Rome cannot possibly be called that. The "Temple" in which the Antichrist shall sit will be the rebuilt temple of the Jews, and that will be located not in Italy but in Jerusalem. In later chapters it will be shown that he Mosque of Omar shall yet be replaced by a Jewish Temple before our Lord returns to earth.
5. The Antichrist will be received by the Jews. This is clear from the pkmtyolpage which heads the first paragraph of this chapter. "I am come in My Father’s name, and ye receive me not; if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive;" but the Jews have never yet owned allegiance to any pope.
6. The Antichrist will make a Covenant with the Jews. In Daniel 9:27 we read, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for a week." The one referred to here as making this seven-year Covenant is "the Prince that shall come" of the previous verse, namely, the Antichrist, who will be the Head of the ten-kingdomed Empire. The nation with whom the Prince will make this covenant is the people of Daniel, as is clear from the context—see Daniel 5:24. But we know of no record upon the scroll of history of any pope having ever made a seven-year Covenant with the Jews!
7. In Daniel 11:45 we read, "And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas, in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." The person referred to here is, again, the Antichrist, as will be seen by going back to Daniel 5:36 where this section of the chapter begins. There we are told, "The king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against he God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished; for that that is determined shall be done." This is more than sufficient to identify with certainty the one spoken of in the last verse of Daniel 11. The Antichrist, then, will plant the tabernacles of his palace "between the seas," that is, between the Mediterranean and the Red Sea. By no species of ingenuity can this be made to apply to the pope, for his palace, the Vatican, is located in the capital city of Italy.
8. The Antichrist cannot be revealed until the mystic Body of Christ and the Holy Spirit have been removed from the earth. This is made clear by what we read in 2 Thessalonians 2. In verse three of that chapter the apostle refers to the revelation of the Man of Sin. In verse four he describes his awful impiety. In verse five he reminds the Thessalonians how that he had taught them these things by word of mouth when he was with them. And then, in verse six he declares "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time." And again he said, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He who now letteth (hindereth) will let until He be taken out of the way." There are two agencies, then, which are hindering, or preventing the manifestation of the Antichrist, until "his time" shall have come. The former agency is covered by the pronoun "what," the latter by the word "He." The former, we are satisfied, is the mystical Body of Christ; the latter being the Holy Spirit of God. At the Rapture both shall be "taken out of the way," and then shall the Man of Sin be revealed. If, then, the Antichrist cannot appear before the Rapture of the saints and the taking away of the Holy Spirit, then, here is proof positive that the Antichrist has not yet appeared.
9. Closely akin to the last argument is the fact that quite a number of definite scriptures place the appearing of the Antichrist at that season known as the End-Time. Daniel 7 and 8 make it plain that the Antichrist will run his career at the very end of this age (we do not say this "dispensation" for that will end at the Rapture), that is, during the great Tribulation, the time of "Jacob’s trouble." Daniel 7:21-23 declares, "I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." Daniel 8:19 places his course (see Daniel 8:23-25) at "the last end of the indignation," i.e. of God’s wrath against Israel and the Gentiles. Daniel 9 shows that he will make his seven-years’ Covenant with the Jews at the beginning of the last of the seventy "weeks" which is to bring in "the end" of Israel’s sins and "finish the transgression" (9:24). If the time of the Antichrist’s manifestation is yet future then it necessarily follows that Rome cannot be the Antichrist.
10. The Antichrist will deny both the Father and the Son: "He is Antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son" (1 John 2:22). This scripture does not speak of virtual, but of actual and formal denial. But Rome has always maintained in her councils and creeds, her symbols of faith and worship, that there are three persons in the Godhead. Numerous and grievous have been her departures from the teaching of Holy Scripture, yet since the time of the Council of Trent (1563 A.D.) every Roman Catholic has had to confess "I believe in God the Father...and in the Lord Jesus Christ . . .and in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, which proceedeth from the Father and the Son."
As a system Romanism is a go-between. The "priest" stands between the sinner and God; the ‘confessional’ between him and the throne of grace; ‘penance’ between him and godly sorrow; the ‘pkmtyolm’ between him and Christ; and ‘purgatory’ between him and Heaven. The pope acknowledges both the Father and the Son: he confesses himself to be both the servant of God and His worshipper; he blesses the people not in his own name, but in that of the Holy Trinity.
God bless
|
|
|
Post by Cohdra on Jul 19, 2003 0:04:05 GMT -5
(Continued from last post)
11. The Antichrist is described as the one "who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God" (2 Thess. 2:4). This is what the popes have never done. Not even Leo ventured to deify himself or supersede God. The popes have made many false and impious claims for themselves; nevertheless, their decrees have been sent forth as from the "vicegerent" of God, the "vicar" of Christ—thus acknowledging a Divine power above himself.
12. In Revelation 13:2,4 we read, "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority...and they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast." By comparing these verses with Revelation 12:9 we learn that the Dragon is none other than Satan himself. Now by almost common consent this first beast of Revelation 13 is the Antichrist. If, then, Romanism be the Antichrist, where, we may ask, shall we turn to find anything answering to what we read of here in Revelation 13:4—"And they worshipped the dragon, which gave power unto the beast."
13. This same 13th chapter of Revelation informs us that the Antichrist (the first Beast) shall be aided by a second Beast who is denominated "the False Prophet" (Rev. 19:20). The False Prophet, we are told "exerciseth all the power of the First Beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the First Beast" (Rev. 13:12). If the First Beast be the Papacy, then who is the False Prophet who "causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship" her?
14. Again; we are told that this False Prophet shall say to them that dwell on the earth "that they should make an image to the Beast, which had the wound by a sword and did live" (Rev. 13:14). Further, we are told, "And he had power to give life unto the image of the Beast, that the image of the Beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the Beast should be killed" (Rev. 13:15). Where do we find anything in Popery which in anywise resembles this?
15. In Daniel 9:27 we are told that the Antichrist "shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." And again in Daniel 8:11 we read, "Yea, he magnified himself even against the Prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away." If Romanism is the Antichrist how can these scriptures be made to square with the oft repeated "Sacrifice of the pkmtyolm"?
16. The dominion of the Antichrist shall be world-wide. The coming Man of Sin will assert a supremacy which shall be unchallenged and universal. "And all the world wondered after the Beast" (Rev. 13:3). "And power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations" (Rev. 13:7). It hardly needs to be pointed out that half of Christendom, to say nothing of Heathendom, is outside the pale of Rome, and is antagonistic to the claims of the Papacy. Again; in Revelation 13:17 we read "No man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the Beast, or the number of his name:" and when, we ask, has any pope exercised such commercial supremacy that none could buy or sell without his permission?
17. The duration of Antichrist’s career, after he comes out in his true character, will be limited to forty-two months. There are no less than six scriptures which, with a variety of expression, affirm this time restriction. In Daniel 7:25 we learn that this one who shall "think to change times and laws," will have these "given into his hand until a time, and times, and the dividing of time:" that is, for three years and a half—cf. Revelation 12:14 with 12:6. And again in Revelation 13:5 we are told, "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months" (Rev. 13:5). Now it is utterly impossible to make this harmonize with the protracted history of Romanism by any honest method of computation.
18. In Revelation 13:7,8 we read, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the face of the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Here we are expressly told that the only ones who will not "worship the Beast," i.e. the Antichrist, are they whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. If then the pope is the Antichrist, all who do not worship him must have their names written in the Lamb’s book of life—an absurdity on the face of it, for this world be tantamount to saying that all the infidels, atheists, and unbelievers of the last thousand years who were outside of the pale of Roman Catholicism are saved.
19. In 2 Thessalonians 2:11,12 we are told, "For this cause God shall end them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be ***ed who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." The context here shows that "believing a lie" means accepting the claims of the Antichrist. Those who believe his claims will "receive him (John 5:43), and not only so, they will "worship" him (Rev. 13:8); and 2 Thessalonians 2:12 declares that all who do this will be ***ed." If, then, the pope is the Antichrist, then it necessarily follows that all who have believed his lying claims, that all who have received him the vicar of Christ, that all who have worshipped him, will be eternally lost. But the writer would not for a moment make any such sweeping assertion. He, together with thousands of others, believes firmly that during the centuries there have been many Roman Catholics who, despite much ignorance and superstition, have been among that number that have exercised faith in the blood of Christ, and that lived and died resting on the finished work of Christ as the alone ground of their acceptance before God, and who because of this shall be forever with the Lord.
20. That the Antichrist and the Papacy are totally distinct is unequivocally established by the teaching of Revelation 17. Here we learn that there shall be ten kings who will reign "with the Beast" (v. 12), and act in concert with him (vv. 13,16). Then we are told "these shall hate the Whore (the papacy), and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire" (v. 16). Instead of the Antichrist and the Papacy being identical, the former shall destroy the latter; whereas, the Antichrist shall be destroyed by Christ Himself, see 2 Thessalonians 2:8
God bless
|
|
|
Post by genesda on Jul 21, 2003 11:42:46 GMT -5
I found a very interesting (Baptist) site, that points out several reasons why the Papacy cannot possibly be the AC. It's very long, but very well done: www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Antichrist/anti_01.htm1. The term "Antichrist" whether employed in the singular or the plural, denotes a person or persons, and never a system. We may speak correctly of an and-Christian system, just as we may refer to a Christian organization; but it is just as inadmissible and erroneous to refer to any system or organization as "the Antichrist" or "an antichrist," as it would be to denominate any Christian system or organization "the Christ," or "a Christ." Just as truly as the Christ is the title of a single person the Son of God, so the Antichrist will be a single person, the son of Satan.
2. The Antichrist will be a lineal descendant of Abraham, a Jew. We shall not stop to submit the proof for this, as that will be given in our next chapter; suffice it now to say that none but a full-blooded Jew could ever expect to palm himself off on the Jewish people as their long-expected Messiah. Here is an argument that has never been met by those who believe that the pope is the Man of Sin. So far as we are aware no Israelite has ever occupied the Papal See—certainly none has done so since the seventh century.
3. In line with the last argument, we read in Zechariah 11:16,17, "For, lo, I will raise up a Shepherd in the land which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young ones, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces. Woe to the Idol Shepherd that leaveth the flock! The sword (of Divine judgment) shall be upon his arm (his power), and upon his right eye (intelligence): his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened." "The land" here is, of course, Palestine, as is ever the case in Scripture with this expression. This could not possibly apply to the line of the Popes.
4. In 2 Thessalonians 2:4 we learn that the Man of Sin shall sit "in the Temple of God," and St. Peter’s at Rome cannot possibly be called that. The "Temple" in which the Antichrist shall sit will be the rebuilt temple of the Jews, and that will be located not in Italy but in Jerusalem. In later chapters it will be shown that he Mosque of Omar shall yet be replaced by a Jewish Temple before our Lord returns to earth.
5. The Antichrist will be received by the Jews. This is clear from the pkmtyolpage which heads the first paragraph of this chapter. "I am come in My Father’s name, and ye receive me not; if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive;" but the Jews have never yet owned allegiance to any pope.
6. The Antichrist will make a Covenant with the Jews. In Daniel 9:27 we read, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for a week." The one referred to here as making this seven-year Covenant is "the Prince that shall come" of the previous verse, namely, the Antichrist, who will be the Head of the ten-kingdomed Empire. The nation with whom the Prince will make this covenant is the people of Daniel, as is clear from the context—see Daniel 5:24. But we know of no record upon the scroll of history of any pope having ever made a seven-year Covenant with the Jews!
7. In Daniel 11:45 we read, "And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas, in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." The person referred to here is, again, the Antichrist, as will be seen by going back to Daniel 5:36 where this section of the chapter begins. There we are told, "The king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against he God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished; for that that is determined shall be done." This is more than sufficient to identify with certainty the one spoken of in the last verse of Daniel 11. The Antichrist, then, will plant the tabernacles of his palace "between the seas," that is, between the Mediterranean and the Red Sea. By no species of ingenuity can this be made to apply to the pope, for his palace, the Vatican, is located in the capital city of Italy.
8. The Antichrist cannot be revealed until the mystic Body of Christ and the Holy Spirit have been removed from the earth. This is made clear by what we read in 2 Thessalonians 2. In verse three of that chapter the apostle refers to the revelation of the Man of Sin. In verse four he describes his awful impiety. In verse five he reminds the Thessalonians how that he had taught them these things by word of mouth when he was with them. And then, in verse six he declares "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time." And again he said, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He who now letteth (hindereth) will let until He be taken out of the way." There are two agencies, then, which are hindering, or preventing the manifestation of the Antichrist, until "his time" shall have come. The former agency is covered by the pronoun "what," the latter by the word "He." The former, we are satisfied, is the mystical Body of Christ; the latter being the Holy Spirit of God. At the Rapture both shall be "taken out of the way," and then shall the Man of Sin be revealed. If, then, the Antichrist cannot appear before the Rapture of the saints and the taking away of the Holy Spirit, then, here is proof positive that the Antichrist has not yet appeared.
9. Closely akin to the last argument is the fact that quite a number of definite scriptures place the appearing of the Antichrist at that season known as the End-Time. Daniel 7 and 8 make it plain that the Antichrist will run his career at the very end of this age (we do not say this "dispensation" for that will end at the Rapture), that is, during the great Tribulation, the time of "Jacob’s trouble." Daniel 7:21-23 declares, "I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." Daniel 8:19 places his course (see Daniel 8:23-25) at "the last end of the indignation," i.e. of God’s wrath against Israel and the Gentiles. Daniel 9 shows that he will make his seven-years’ Covenant with the Jews at the beginning of the last of the seventy "weeks" which is to bring in "the end" of Israel’s sins and "finish the transgression" (9:24). If the time of the Antichrist’s manifestation is yet future then it necessarily follows that Rome cannot be the Antichrist.
10. The Antichrist will deny both the Father and the Son: "He is Antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son" (1 John 2:22). This scripture does not speak of virtual, but of actual and formal denial. But Rome has always maintained in her councils and creeds, her symbols of faith and worship, that there are three persons in the Godhead. Numerous and grievous have been her departures from the teaching of Holy Scripture, yet since the time of the Council of Trent (1563 A.D.) every Roman Catholic has had to confess "I believe in God the Father...and in the Lord Jesus Christ . . .and in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, which proceedeth from the Father and the Son."
As a system Romanism is a go-between. The "priest" stands between the sinner and God; the ‘confessional’ between him and the throne of grace; ‘penance’ between him and godly sorrow; the ‘pkmtyolm’ between him and Christ; and ‘purgatory’ between him and Heaven. The pope acknowledges both the Father and the Son: he confesses himself to be both the servant of God and His worshipper; he blesses the people not in his own name, but in that of the Holy Trinity.
God bless You can site the Baptists as a defense for your papacy if you wish, but since when does a Rc rely on the Baptists for anything. Do you rely on them for other doctrines also or are they wrong when they say the Rcc is wrong on their doctrine of salvation purgatory, etc.? The truth is, the Baptists don't have a clue. They still cling to the Rc futurist interpretations of Daniel and Revelation which were designed to throw the finger pointing away from the papacy. Maybe that's why you quote them, but believe this, they don't have a clue.
|
|
|
Post by Deborah4God on Jul 21, 2003 12:28:29 GMT -5
You can site the Baptists as a defense for your papacy if you wish, but since when does a Rc rely on the Baptists for anything. Do you rely on them for other doctrines also or are they wrong when they say the Rcc is wrong on their doctrine of salvation purgatory, etc.? The truth is, the Baptists don't have a clue. They still cling to the Rc futurist interpretations of Daniel and Revelation which were designed to throw the finger pointing away from the papacy. Maybe that's why you quote them, but believe this, they don't have a clue. The pope is not the " Anit Christ " but he is Anit Christ And by the way genesda , I am a Baptitst and speaking just for myself and not the " Baptist" the only one clueLess here is yourself- but don't give -up it's never to late In His Love
|
|
logos
Full Member
Posts: 191
|
Post by logos on Jul 21, 2003 12:38:11 GMT -5
Can neither of you refute the points being made?! Deborah: Have you read any of the Pope's writings? Have you seen or heard him speak? Do you know of any of his good endeavours around the world? This man has traveled the world, proclaimed Jesus as Lord on every continent, always spoken of living a good Christian life, hugged lepers, given away his belongings to the poor. Yes, he gets to live in the Papal residence, but do you know that his room has a cot, a night stand, and two pictures? He doesn't even reside in the papal bedroom. This man has literally spoken to tens of millions of people about Jesus' saving power. Read his writings, he has written inumerable letters and essays, many poems, and at least one play. ALL about goodness and holiness and Christian virtues. Why do you say the he is an actichrist?
|
|
|
Post by Deborah4God on Jul 21, 2003 12:57:14 GMT -5
Can neither of you refute the points being made?!Deborah: Have you read any of the Pope's writings? Have you seen or heard him speak? Do you know of any of his good endeavours around the world? This man has traveled the world, proclaimed Jesus as Lord on every continent, always spoken of living a good Christian life, hugged lepers, given away his belongings to the poor. Yes, he gets to live in the Papal residence, but do you know that his room has a cot, a night stand, and two pictures? He doesn't even reside in the papal bedroom. This man has literally spoken to tens of millions of people about Jesus' saving power. Read his writings, he has written inumerable letters and essays, many poems, and at least one play. ALL about goodness and holiness and Christian virtues. Why do you say the he is an actichrist? I didn't say he was an anti christ I said he Was Anti Christ big differences ;D and I know many " GOOD people doesn't make them " Godly' people following God and His teachings now does it! But never the less they are still good people.
|
|
|
Post by marysia on Jul 21, 2003 13:02:21 GMT -5
You can site the Baptists as a defense for your papacy if you wish, but since when does a Rc rely on the Baptists for anything. Do you rely on them for other doctrines also or are they wrong when they say the Rcc is wrong on their doctrine of salvation purgatory, etc.? The truth is, the Baptists don't have a clue. They still cling to the Rc futurist interpretations of Daniel and Revelation which were designed to throw the finger pointing away from the papacy. Maybe that's why you quote them, but believe this, they don't have a clue. actually gene, in a current "novel" by an Rcc and supported by the Rcc - they DO believe there will be an Anti Pope - not acting as a anti Christ, however in legion with it. they called him the anti pope and he turned the fundamentals of cathocolism on it's ear - promoting abortion and euthinizing the elderly, mentally handicapped or infirm, saying prayer and a relationship with God isn't anything, taking away the teaching of Jesus/Bible as nothing more than a "story" - that is the antipope. yes, the antipope signifies the beginning of the end. however that "pope" will NOT be as the present pope - he will not tell people to love the Lord with all your heart. he will not be trying to bring people back from their selfish - what can the church do for me to make my life easier (shorter services etc) -- the present pope is trying to bring people to Chirst. the antipope will be taking them away : )
|
|
logos
Full Member
Posts: 191
|
Post by logos on Jul 21, 2003 13:27:36 GMT -5
I didn't say he was an anti christ I said he Was Anti Christ big differences ;D and I know many " GOOD people doesn't make them " Godly' people following God and His teachings now does it! But never the less they are still good people. I guess I misread you. What are your grounds for believing that he is ANTI Christ?
|
|
|
Post by RealistState on Jul 21, 2003 20:17:21 GMT -5
I didn't say he was an anti christ I said he Was Anti Christ big differences ;D and I know many " GOOD people doesn't make them " Godly' people following God and His teachings now does it! But never the less they are still good people. Hi Deb...been a long time! So, let's go through this again....what has he done that goes against Jesus?
|
|
|
Post by Deborah4God on Jul 21, 2003 20:44:34 GMT -5
Hi Deb...been a long time! So, let's go through this again....what has he done that goes against Jesus? Hello RealistState where have you been! ;D I will have to answer your question at another date- ok gotta go- Please stick around I've missed you my brother in Christ- God bless In His Love Deborah
|
|
|
Post by genesda on Jul 22, 2003 7:13:39 GMT -5
The pope is not the " Anit Christ " but he is Anit Christ And by the way genesda , I am a Baptitst and speaking just for myself and not the " Baptist" the only one clueLess here is yourself- but don't give -up it's never to late In His LoveDon't have a clue? The only way you can come up with the stuff you posted is by following the Rc method of prophetic interpretation. These futurist and preterist methods were invented by the Jesuits to get the finger pointing away from the papacy. It has been well established that this is a FACT and not some wild accusation. The truth is that the papacy is the man at the head of the beast, the Rcc, and if you choose to remain in the dark, that's o.k. This is not a new revelation but is hundreds of years old. The reformers knew it but this was lost because people started believing the papists over scripture as many churches, including your, still do. I am not the one who hasn't a clue.
|
|
|
Post by genesda on Jul 22, 2003 7:17:45 GMT -5
Can neither of you refute the points being made?!Deborah: Have you read any of the Pope's writings? Have you seen or heard him speak? Do you know of any of his good endeavours around the world? This man has traveled the world, proclaimed Jesus as Lord on every continent, always spoken of living a good Christian life, hugged lepers, given away his belongings to the poor. Yes, he gets to live in the Papal residence, but do you know that his room has a cot, a night stand, and two pictures? He doesn't even reside in the papal bedroom. This man has literally spoken to tens of millions of people about Jesus' saving power. Read his writings, he has written inumerable letters and essays, many poems, and at least one play. ALL about goodness and holiness and Christian virtues. Why do you say the he is an actichrist? He worships Mary and has a large "M" on his robes proclaiming her. He credits her for saving his life and says that salvation comes through her. I'll list some of the claims by the Rcc:
Catholics often suggest that it's acceptable for them to exalt Mary as much as they want to, as long as they acknowledge that there's a difference between Mary and God. So, if they view Mary as being 99.99% of everything that God is, that's acceptable, since they acknowledge a .01% difference. This is the sort of reasoning that Catholics use to defend the RCC's absurd and blasphemous exaltation of Mary.
Even if Catholics acknowledge that Mary isn't God, does that justify making claims such as the following:
"Mary is all powerful with her divine Son who grants all graces to mankind through her" - Pope Benedict XV, Fausto Appetente Die
"With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ, thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother....How grateful and magnificent a spectacle to see in the cities, and towns, and villages, on land and sea—wherever the Catholic faith has penetrated—many hundreds of thousands of pious people uniting their praises and prayers with one voice and heart at every moment of the day, saluting Mary, invoking Mary, hoping everything through Mary." - Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense
"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." - Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem Populi
"Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind." - Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia
"Mary's suffering [at Calvary], beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world." - Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25
"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven. He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of our people." - Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950
"With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because, while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race." - Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus
The papacy is the antichrist we are warned about in the scriptures.
|
|
|
Post by RodP on Jul 22, 2003 8:36:13 GMT -5
Hi Deb...been a long time! So, let's go through this again....what has he done that goes against Jesus? Hey ya Brother!! Long time no see!! Great to see ya 'round!
|
|
|
Post by Pietro on Jul 22, 2003 8:54:39 GMT -5
Catholics often suggest that it's acceptable for them to exalt Mary as much as they want to, as long as they acknowledge that there's a difference between Mary and God. So, if they view Mary as being 99.99% of everything that God is, that's acceptable, since they acknowledge a .01% difference. This is the sort of reasoning that Catholics use to defend the RCC's absurd and blasphemous exaltation of Mary.
The papacy is the antichrist we are warned about in the scriptures.
In my opinion as a Catholic there are many Catholics who seem to go overboard with Mary but their veneration only exalts God all the more because there is ALWAYS a distinction between God's creature, Mary and God Himself. There is no blurring or comparison betwen the two. To Catholics that is obvious, intutitive, and goes without saying. That is why these sorts of accusations seem so off the wall to Catholics. Mary and the saints are our brothers and sisters in faith. God is God alone. The statement that "the papacy is the antichrist we are warned about in scripture" is completely absurd since the antichrist denies that Christ has come in the flesh and probably originally referred to the Jews. Genesda, I am sorry that the internet is available for you to spread your poison. The papacy, like any human office is vulnerable to the weakness and foibles of man but is none the less an instrument of the Holy Spirit. No one has responded to my other posts on the origins of orthodoxy and the necessity of an organized authority to deal with heresies. That is the key to understanding the continuity of church authority which, because it requires submission of the individual ego often results in rebellion. We have become so independent in our rugged individualism. "No one can tell me what to do!" It is the source of many problems in cluding abortion:"Can't tell a women what to do with her own body" even though she is not the only one affected. It is the same in all that we do . We saw it in the US decision to go to war with Iraq. "It's our decision" as if the rest of the world has no stake in the matter. God placed us here together as a community to work things out together, not to go our own ways when we are challenged or things aren't to our liking. Instead we should work for shange from within. "Be subject to every human institution for the Lord's sake, whether it be to the king as supreme or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evil doers and the approval of those who do good." (1 Peter 2:13) How much moreso the Church?
|
|
logos
Full Member
Posts: 191
|
Post by logos on Jul 22, 2003 10:18:40 GMT -5
He worships Mary and has a large "M" on his robes proclaiming her. ..... Catholics often suggest that it's acceptable for them to exalt Mary as much as they want to, as long as they acknowledge that there's a difference between Mary and God. .... Even if Catholics acknowledge that Mary isn't God, does ..... "Mary is all powerful ... "With equal truth may ... "O Virgin most holy, ... "Mary suffered and, as it ... "Mary's suffering [at Calvary], ..... "Enraptured by the ....... "With a still more ...... The papacy is the antichrist we are warned about in the scriptures.
So you have a problem with Mary, not with the Pope. If you are right about Catholic's worshipping Mary, then that is still no cause for labeling the Pope anti Christ. People claim the Martin Luther King committed adultery, if it's true, I still think that he was a good man. One flaw doesn't make someone anti Christ.
|
|