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Post by genesda on Jul 24, 2003 6:19:09 GMT -5
logos Deborah- I'm a brother . Although I agree with you that it would be wrong, and blasphemous to add or subtract from the Word of God I don't think that verse states that, it says: 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy It's referring to the Book of Revelation.
I believe in Purgatory,Rosary,Holy Water,Devotions to Icons,Peter { the rock of the church},Mary { teachings about her},pkmtyolm,Confession's to Priest,Priest not being able to marry. I also believe in Jesus as Second Person of the Holy Trinity, incarnate who came to earth to free me from my sins as a free and underserving gift. I will not be offended, and I am not trying to be mean or put words in your mouth, but it does stand to reason that I then would be anti Christ. Right?
You've believed these lies for so long that now when the truth is presented to you, you either can't see it or just plain refuse to accept the truth. The bible says that in the last days there would be those who have itchy ears who have no love for truth and that's why God would send a strong delusion(apparitions of Mary) so that those would believe a lie and condemn themselves.
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Post by genesda on Jul 24, 2003 6:57:50 GMT -5
So you have a problem with Mary, not with the Pope. If you are right about Catholic's worshipping Mary, then that is still no cause for labeling the Pope anti Christ. People claim the Martin Luther King committed adultery, if it's true, I still think that he was a good man. One flaw doesn't make someone anti Christ. Below is partial proof that the papacy is the first beast of Rev. 13 and the little horn of Daniel 7. There is a ton of evidence showing the pope to be the current anitchrist in a long line of them that stretches back almost 2000 years. The following extracts are from authoritative works by Catholic dignitaries concerning the title and position of their leader. "All the names which are attributed to Christ In Scripture, implying His supremacy over the church, are also attributed to the Pope." Bellamin, "On the Authority of Councils," book 2, Chapter 17. "For thou art the shepherd, thou are the physician, thou art the director, thou art the husbandman, finally thou art another God on earth." Labbe and Cossart's "History of the Vol. XIV' col. 109. For the title "Lord God the Pope," see a gloss on the Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, title 14, chapter 4, Declaramus. In an Antwerp edition of the Extravagantes, the words, "Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam" (Our Lord God the Pope") occur in column 153. In a Paris edition, they occur in column 140. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven, and earth, and purgatory." Prompta Bibliotheca," Feraris, Vol. VI, pg. 26, article "Papa." In a pkmtyolpage which is included in the Roman Catholic Canon Law, Pope Innocent III declares that the Roman pontiff is "the vicegerent upon earth, not of a mere man, but of very God;" and in a gloss on the pkmtyolpage it is explained that this is because he is the vicegerent of Christ, Who is "very God and very man." See Decretales Domini Gregorli PapaeIX (Decretals of the Lord Pope Gregory IX), liberi, de translatione Episcoporum, (on the transference of Bishops),title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205. 1123. Papacy----claims made for the pope----power to modify divine laws source: Lucius Ferraris, "papa", art. 2, in his Prompta Bibliothecia ("handy library") vol. 6 (venetiis [venice] Gaspar Storti,1772) p.29. Latin. The pope is of so great authorityand power that he can modify, explain,or interpret even divine laws.......Petrus de Ancharano [1416] very clearly asserts this in Consil.373, no.3 verso: The pope can modify (change) divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts in the place of God on Earth, with the fullest power of binding and loosing his sheep. So Catholics themselves originally used the phrase VICARIUS FILII DEI in the forged document known as the Donation of Constantine that was held to be genuine for many hundreds of years and Catholics continued to claim that VICARIUS FILII DEI was inscribed on one of the papal mitres as recently as 1915. I would also suspect, but cannot prove, that there are many documents in the archives of the Catholic Church that contain the exact wording in Latin as described. An anecdote I can relate to you applies here. In discussing 666 with a fellow coworker one day, he told me that he used to be in training to be a Catholic Priest, and in cpkmtyoll one day the priest told the prospective inductees that there was no way to disprove that 666 applied to the papal title, and they would have to live with that fact if they wanted to be priests, or drop out. My friend did not go on to be a priest, though he may have quit for other reasons. This identification of 666 with the Papal title of Vicaruis Fill Dei first surfaced in print in the year 1612 A.D. in a book by Andreas Helwig called the Roman Antichrist. So the Roman Catholic Church has had over 380 years to conclusively prove it false, yet they have not done so. Why? Because it is true?! So, by the above evidence ANTICHRIST and VICAR OF CHRIST are absolutely identical in meaning!!! They both define one who substitutes himself for God and is a usurper of (making a false claim on) the power of God. Now note the following pkmtyolpage: 2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Isn't it clear that this speaks of one who substitutes himself for God in the very temple of God? While most of the Christian community has been told to look for someone in the future that will fit this characteristic of AntiChrist, the Vicar of Christ has already precisely fulfilled this prophecy for centuries! When the Pope speaks "ex-cathedra", which means from Peter's chair, Catholic's are bound to believe his decree as though it were given from God himself! So as the Vicar of Christ, the Pope speaks from Peter's chair, in the Cathedral of God, declaring himself to be infallible in defining and declaring unbiblical doctrines which he claims to be essential to salvation as though he were God! Is this not an exact and precise fulfilment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 identifying the Papacy as the AntiChrist? Here is just one example of a Papal claim that fits 2 Thess 2:4- But the supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself. Source: Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Letter, “On the Chief Duties of Christians as Citizens,” dated January 10, 1890, trans. in The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII (New York: Benziger, 1903), p. 193. The Roman church has had centuries to disprove the papacy used the title above and have not done so. I know there are RC people who deny it, but they don't count because the official denial hasn't come forth. The papacy is the false religious system headed by the antichrist God warned us about in the bible
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logos
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Post by logos on Jul 24, 2003 11:28:29 GMT -5
genesda- Post #30 had zero informational content, it was pure rhetoric. Please refrain from writing posts of that type.
Post #31 had information, so that's better. To understand all the quotes you included, one must first read the quotes in context. Secondly, all of your claims are based on conjecture. The problem is, many people are called, husbands and directors, and physicians, and shepherds. 2 Thes 2:3-4 proves nothing about the Papacy. See the previous post with quotes from John Paul II and how he constantly exalts God and Jesus above any other. Also, don't you usually interpret 2 Thes 2:4 as to referring to the antiChrist sitting in the rebuilt Jewish temple. You can't say that the Pope is sitting in the temple, and that it is the Rebuilt Jewish Temple, you must pick one.
Peace of Christ- logos
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Post by Cohdra on Jul 24, 2003 13:01:02 GMT -5
Some more imput: But the most common and popular interpretation is that which makes the name antichrist refer to the Papacy. From the time of the Reformation this has been the favourite hypothesis of Protestant commentators; nor is it difficult to understand why it should have been so. There is a strong family likeness among all systems of superstition and corrupt religion; and no doubt much of the Papal system may be designated antichristian; but it is a very different thing to say that the antichrist of St. John is intended to describe the pope or the Papal system. Alford decidedly rejects this hypothesis:---
‘It cannot be disguised,’ he remarks, in treating of this very point, ‘that in several important particulars the prophetic requirements are very far from being fulfilled. I will only mention two,---one subjective, the other objective. In the characteristic of 2 Thess. ii. 4 ("who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God," etc.) the pope does not, and never did, fulfil the prophecy. Allowing all the striking coincidences with the latter part of the verse which have been so abundantly adduced, it never can be shown that he fulfils the former part---nay, so far is he from it, that the abject adoration of and submission to legomenoi qeoi and sebasmata (all that is called God and that is worshipped) has ever been one of his most notable peculiarities. The second objection, of an external and historical character, is even more decisive. If the Papacy be antichrist, then has the manifestation been made, and endured now for nearly 1500 years, and yet that day of the Lord is not come which, by the terms of our prophecy, such manifestation is immediately to precede.
But the language of the apostle himself is decisive against such an application of the name antichrist. Indeed, it is difficult to understand how such an interpretation could have taken root in the face of his own express declarations. The antichrist of St. John is not a person, nor a succession of persons, but a doctrine, or heresy, clearly noted and described. More than this, it is declared to be already existing and manifested in the apostle’s own days: ‘Even NOW are there many antichrists;’ ‘this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world’ (1 John vi. 18; iv. 3). This ought to be decisive for all who bow to the authority of the Word of God. The hypothesis of an antichrist embodied in an individual still to come has not basis in Scripture; it is a fiction of the imagination, and not a doctrine of the Word of God.
MARKS OF THE ANTICHRIST.
1 John ii. 19.---‘They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us; but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.’
1 John ii. 22.---‘Who is a [the] liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is [the] antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.’
1 John iv. 1.---‘Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.’
1 John iv. 3.---‘Every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God; and this is that spirit of antichrist whereof ye have heard that it should come: and even now already is it in the world.’
2 John, ver. 7.---‘Many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is [the] deceiver and [the] antichrist.’
Here we may be said to have a full-length portrait of the antichrist, or, as we should rather say, the antichristian heresy or apostasy. From this description it distinctly appears,---
That the antichrist was not an individual, or a person, but a principle, or heresy, manifesting itself in many individuals. That the antichrist or antichrists were apostates from the faith of Christ (ver. 19). That their characteristic error consisted in the denial of the Messiahship, the divinity, and incarnation of the Son of God. That the antichristian apostates described by St. John may possibly be the same as those denominated by our Lord 'false christs and false prophets’ (Matt. xxiv. 5, 11, 24), but certainly answer to those alluded to by St. Paul, St. Peter, and St. Jude. All the allusions to the antichristian apostasy connect its appearance with the ‘Parousia,’ and with ‘the last days’ or close of the aeon or Jewish dispensation. That is to say, it is regarded as near, and almost already present. www.preteristarchive.com/Books/russell_parousia_02o.htmlGod bless
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Post by genesda on Jul 25, 2003 7:15:59 GMT -5
You know, all this "the pope is the antichrist" nonsense reminds me of the nazi's. Wasn't one of their reasons for hating jews that jews were the ones that killed Christ? They conveniently forgot that Christ, along with all of his diciples, were jews. Just another way to attempt to spread hatred, this time against the catholic denomination. The spread of hatred just goes on and on, doesn't it? It's nice of you to defend the Rcc, especially when you have no knowledge of what you're talking about. You obviously know nothing about Daniel and Revelation or you wouldn't defend the Rcc. The papacy IS the antichrist of the bible and it's provable!![/color]
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Post by genesda on Jul 25, 2003 7:19:28 GMT -5
genesda- Post #30 had zero informational content, it was pure rhetoric. Please refrain from writing posts of that type. Post #31 had information, so that's better. To understand all the quotes you included, one must first read the quotes in context. Secondly, all of your claims are based on conjecture. The problem is, many people are called, husbands and directors, and physicians, and shepherds. 2 Thes 2:3-4 proves nothing about the Papacy. See the previous post with quotes from John Paul II and how he constantly exalts God and Jesus above any other. Also, don't you usually interpret 2 Thes 2:4 as to referring to the antiChrist sitting in the rebuilt Jewish temple. You can't say that the Pope is sitting in the temple, and that it is the Rebuilt Jewish Temple, you must pick one. Peace of Christ- logos This is a nice defence and it might work with those who don't know the scriptures. Your problem is that your defence will never work with me because i do know the prophecies in this matter and your papacy IS THE ANTICHRIST we are warned about in the scriptures. You nor anyone else can change that. I would suggest you "come out of her My people".
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logos
Full Member
Posts: 191
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Post by logos on Jul 25, 2003 13:32:46 GMT -5
This is a nice defence and it might work with those who don't know the scriptures. Your problem is that your defence will never work with me because i do know the prophecies in this matter and your papacy IS THE ANTICHRIST we are warned about in the scriptures. You nor anyone else can change that. I would suggest you "come out of her My people". Then please disprove my stated point with clear scripture pkmtyolpages to the Contrary. Either it won't be the Jewish Temple, OR it won't be the Pope. Pick one. Thanks. Peace of Christ- logos
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Post by marysia on Jul 25, 2003 16:45:01 GMT -5
Then please disprove my stated point with clear scripture pkmtyolpages to the Contrary. Either it won't be the Jewish Temple, OR it won't be the Pope. Pick one. Thanks. Peace of Christ- logos not to contradict, however there are many Rcc that DO believe there will be an "anitpope" who will be in cahoots with the antichrist. however, unlike our current pope this "anitpope" will try and turn Rcc people away from Christ & His teachings and approve of abortions and very vile things - things that make "religion/faith easier". kind of like the "one world religion" in the series. however it's not that the pope hisself would be the anti christ.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 25, 2003 18:02:47 GMT -5
What a complete and utter load of Satanic inspired garbage. And apart from that i dont believe it. I have read the post and it is nothing but Jesuit futurism. Whoever wrote it is a heretic. There are too many misquotes and biblical mistakes for me to refute them here. The office of Pope is THE Antichrist. have a read of the website in my signature below to find some answers to the above heretical baptist website.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 25, 2003 18:24:49 GMT -5
A beast in prophecy is a nation with a throne. The Antichrist is a nation with a throne. The papacy is a throne and a kingdom.
pure speculation
In the NT the temple of God on earth is the church. The AC will be inside the church
pure speculation.
according to Revelation the AC will be accepted by everyone.
Pure heresy! Professor Edward Young observes: “The writer [of the book of Daniel] does not mean to say that he will make a covenant. The ordinary idiom to express such a thought is “to cut a covenant”, and this idiom is not used here. Now, if the writer had wished to state that a covenant would be made, why did he not employ the ordinary Hebrew idiom for expressing such a thought? Why did he use this strange phrase, “cause to prevail”…” God Cares Vol 1 P221. M. Maxwell, 1981, Pacific press.
The prince is the Messiah Jesus. He was to cause a covenant to prevail, ie He would strengthen a covenant that already existed. The simplest way to express the meaning of the Hebrew is to say that Jesus would put forth strength to energetically honour the covenant under any circumstances. This Jesus did as no matter what combination of mockery, threat, torture, dread, and death - of fighting’s without and fears within – rose up against Him, Christ saw to it that His covenant prevailed. The apostle Paul says: Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision [Jews] for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,
2 Thess 2 says no such thing. They are reading into the pkmtyolpage what isnt there. They are assuming that the restrainer is the holy spirit. IN fact by comparing 2 thess 2 with Daniel 7 we find that the restrainer is the Roman Empire.
actually dan 7 and 8 teach that the AC arrives after the break up of Ancient Rome.
Johns Antichrist and Paul's man of sin are 2 different things.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 25, 2003 18:54:46 GMT -5
on the contrary this is exactly what they have done by claiming to have changed the law of God. thereby making themselves above God.
This is a future prophecy and the false prophet is the USA again a future prophecy Pure Heresy. this prophecy refers to the messiah.
again a future prophecy we know from the 70 weeks prophecy that a day= a year. 42 months = 1260 day/years. The exact amount of time that the pope was a priest/king 538 AD - 1798 AD
straw man arguement. The prophecy here applies to the time when the mark of the beast is enforced just prior to the second coming. At this time there will be 2 groups of people. those who have the mark of the papacy and those who are saved.
this also applies to the time when the mark is enforced.
The woman and the beast are the same power. a church state which is the essence of Romanism.
This Baptist website that teaches Jesuit Futurism is a bale of straw.
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Post by genesda on Jul 26, 2003 7:04:44 GMT -5
In 2 Thessalonians 2:11,12 we are told, "For this cause God shall end them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be d**med who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." The context here shows that "believing a lie" means accepting the claims of the Antichrist. Those who believe his claims will "receive him (John 5:43), and not only so, they will "worship" him (Rev. 13:8); and 2 Thessalonians 2:12 declares that all who do this will be d**med." If, then, the pope is the Antichrist, then it necessarily follows that all who have believed his lying claims, that all who have received him the vicar of Christ, that all who have worshipped him, will be eternally lost.
Exactly! Let's look at some of the claims of the papacy:
"All the names which are attributed to Christ In Scripture, implying His supremacy over the church, are also attributed to the Pope." Bellamin, "On the Authority of Councils," book 2, Chapter 17. "For thou art the shepherd, thou are the physician, thou art the director, thou art the husbandman, finally thou art another God on earth." Labbe and Cossart's "History of the Vol. XIV' col. 109. For the title "Lord God the Pope," see a gloss on the Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, title 14, chapter 4, Declaramus. In an Antwerp edition of the Extravagantes, the words, "Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam" (Our Lord God the Pope") occur in column 153. In a Paris edition, they occur in column 140. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven, and earth, and purgatory." Prompta Bibliotheca," Feraris, Vol. VI, pg. 26, article "Papa." In a pkmtyolpage which is included in the Roman Catholic Canon Law, Pope Innocent III declares that the Roman pontiff is "the vicegerent upon earth, not of a mere man, but of very God;" and in a gloss on the pkmtyolpage it is explained that this is because he is the vicegerent of Christ, Who is "very God and very man." See Decretales Domini Gregorli PapaeIX (Decretals of the Lord Pope Gregory IX), liberi, de translatione Episcoporum, (on the transference of Bishops),title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205. 1123. Papacy----claims made for the pope----power to modify divine laws source: Lucius Ferraris, "papa", art. 2, in his Prompta Bibliothecia ("handy library") vol. 6 (venetiis [venice] Gaspar Storti,1772) p.29. Latin.
The pope is of so great authorityand power that he can modify, explain,or interpret even divine laws.......Petrus de Ancharano [1416] very clearly asserts this in Consil.373, no.3 verso: The pope can modify (change) divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts in the place of God on Earth, with the fullest power of binding and loosing his sheep.
Has the papacy attempted to change Divine laws(commandments)?
-"NOTE.-As the Sabbath was given that man might keep God in mind as Creator, it can be readily seen that a power endeavoring to exalt itself above God could do this in no other way so effectually as by setting aside God's mernorial-the seventh-day Sabbath. To this work of the Papacy Daniel had reference when he said, "And he shall ... think to change times and laws." Daniel 7:25. Does the Papacy acknowledge changing the Sabbath? It does. NOTE.-The Catechismus Rornanus was commanded by the Council of Trent and published by the Vatican Press, by order of Pope Pius V, in 1566. This catechism for priests says: "It pleased the church of God, that the religious celebration of the Sabbath day should be transferred to 'the Lord's day."-Catechism of the Council of Trent (Donovan's translation 1867). part 3, chap. 4, P. 345.
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Post by genesda on Jul 26, 2003 7:16:33 GMT -5
not to contradict, however there are many Rcc that DO believe there will be an "anitpope" who will be in cahoots with the antichrist. however, unlike our current pope this "anitpope" will try and turn Rcc people away from Christ & His teachings and approve of abortions and very vile things - things that make "religion/faith easier". kind of like the "one world religion" in the series. however it's not that the pope hisself would be the anti christ. Marysia, there are many vile things that man pkmtyolpes over as , "oh well". You name abortion as one of the vile things that you believe will come to pkmtyolp with the pope. Well God gave us a set of commandments that includes murder, which is vile, as is lying, stealing, coveting and SABBATH BREAKING. James says if you break one of the commandments, you've broken them all. In God's eyes, sabbath disregarding is as important as murder and the other 9 commandments, yet you don't mention this vile act. This current pope as are all of the past popes uphold sabbath breaking, and this is a sin as equal to murder, in God's eyes.
It is man who makes some sins greater than other, not God. To God, all sin is equal.
Have good and safe Sabbath day. [/color
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Post by genesda on Jul 26, 2003 7:29:19 GMT -5
genesda- Post #30 had zero informational content, it was pure rhetoric. Please refrain from writing posts of that type. Post #31 had information, so that's better. To understand all the quotes you included, one must first read the quotes in context. Secondly, all of your claims are based on conjecture. The problem is, many people are called, husbands and directors, and physicians, and shepherds. 2 Thes 2:3-4 proves nothing about the Papacy. See the previous post with quotes from John Paul II and how he constantly exalts God and Jesus above any other. Also, don't you usually interpret 2 Thes 2:4 as to referring to the antiChrist sitting in the rebuilt Jewish temple. You can't say that the Pope is sitting in the temple, and that it is the Rebuilt Jewish Temple, you must pick one. Peace of Christ- logos Nothing I post is just rhetoric. What I post is conclusion based on PROPER prophetic interpretation. I never use the Jesuit futurism method of interpreting prophecy because that method was invented just so the Protestants would stop naming the pope the antichrist of the bible, and it almost worked. Your problem is that God wouldn't let this go un-noticed so He inspired men to see the truth again. I can understand how you would deny what I and others write, but if you want the truth, you must seek it. The papacy will never admit that they know the truth of the scriptures for fear of their lives, for the honest ones, and corruption for the others. You had one pope who was going to reform the Roman church and he only lasted 33 days before he was posioned. His mistake was informing a trusted aide of what he intended, and he was promptly disposed of.
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Post by AmericanBetty on Jul 26, 2003 12:49:01 GMT -5
Here is a new wrench in your arguement: I am Catholic. Where is the anti Christ coming from....THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!! How can this be said by me, someone who really believes the Catholic Church is the right one??
Here goes: How many Catholics have read Our Lady Of The Roses visionary papers and online? I have. It's so scary to think that we as a Christian body have weaken Christ's church that evil has entered into the Holiest city of Christ!! ALL of us are accountable!! The protestants for leaving instead of healing what was wrong and Catholics for not having the faith to streghthen what was once strong! Do you think the sex scandals were something man-made?? I never did. In fact they led me BACK to the Church because I recognized what was happening!!My Church is being destroyed! The devil is in there. We need to pray for it! God gave us a very strong and good pope. He needs our prayers to keep strong!! What is going to happen when he dies?? Get ready! To all of you who wait for the end days...I DON'T!!! I don't want to see them.
I was on an almost yearlong search for renewing my faith. It led me to the LB books and then to the message boards and finally here. I attend church with the right attitude and so full of faith that last sunday I asked God to bless my oldest and bring him to HIM. And to give my youngest son the calling to be a priest!! It really is something I thought of when I found out I was preggers but now my faith leads me to pray for it!
As far as the celebacy thing for those who deny that it is a good thing. It IS in the bible that it is better to be single to consetrate on the Lord than it is to married and our minds aren't only on Him.
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