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Post by col311 on Sept 26, 2003 19:21:37 GMT -5
Tell me tomorrow what 1 Thess says to you then, I'll answer you!
You have to post word for word what verse 16 says!
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Post by col311 on Sept 26, 2003 19:22:56 GMT -5
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Post by parousia70 on Sept 26, 2003 19:25:38 GMT -5
Tell me tomorrow what 1 Thess says to you then, I'll answer you! You have to post word for word what verse 16 says! For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: |
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Kathy
Junior Member
Take no man's opinion, study God's Word for yourself.
Posts: 99
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Post by Kathy on Oct 10, 2003 1:41:31 GMT -5
The writer of Hebrews above just got through teaching that each man has an appointment with physical death. Yes, this earthly body will die. It made from dust and shall return to dust. But, Believers have two bodies! I believe we are changed before physical death occurs (perhaps only a twinkle of an eye before) Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Did Abraham, Isaac & Jacob die a physical death? Yes, but in Mat 22:32 are they still living??? Moses died a physical death: Deu 34:7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. Yet, thousands of years later Moses was seen by Peter, James & John Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Scripture teaches that The resurrection of Living belivers can not, does not, preceed the resurrection of the dead ones. For you or I to get our spiritual bodies upon physical death, the resurrection of the dead must be past. The resurrection of the Believer is taking place every day!! Praise God!! God brings with Him Believers that have died before He comes. Peter, James & John saw Moses and Elias. But most important is the promise Christ made to Believers: John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? |
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Post by Chewbacca on Oct 22, 2003 18:48:19 GMT -5
I have always been of the belief that we go directly to heaven, but I have changed my mind recently with some in-depth study.
There is a lot of scripture that has changed my mind on it.
The Trump verse is..........
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
This Scripture makes two significant points. First, these are Jesus Christ's own words. If anyone had gone to heaven, Jesus would know about it. Second, John recorded these words many years after Jesus died and ascended to heaven, still affirming that no one other than Jesus had gone to heaven.
The Bible simply does not speak of the dead going to and living forever in a place or condition of "heaven" or "hell." Solomon observed that mankind and animals are destined for, in death, a common fate.
Ecclesiases 3: 19-20 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other: yea, they have all on breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Daniel refers to the state of the dead in his inspiring prophecy.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
In explaining the condition of the dead, Daniel compares death to sleep. The Bible analogously refers to death as sleep. How could people who have died be asleep in their graves and profoundly unconscious, as revealed in the Bible, yet be residing in heaven and looking down at us on earth or, presumably, in hell looking up?
Solomon noted that the dead have no awareness, nor are they in some other state of consciousness.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
The person who has died is unconscious and unaware of the pkmtyolping of time.
The Hebrew scriptures, cmmonly called the Old Testament, teach that, upon death, the sould ceases to exist. It does not live on in some other condition. It does not transmigrate into another form. It is not reincarnated into another creature. In simply dies.
If anyone other than God the Father and Jesus Christ is in heaven, surely it is King David. But Peter said David is dead and buried and David's soul is in hades, the Greek word for the grave. (Acts 2: 29-34).
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
The Bible shows that the spirit in man, which originally came from the Creator God, returns to Him.
This spirit that returns to God is neither the source of human life, nor is it human consciousness. Life and consciousness both perish when one dies. God does not tell us why this spirit returns to Him, just that it does. This may be the way God preserves the characteristics of each person until the resurrection.
1 Thessalonians 13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
At the end of our physical lives, this temporary and mortal existence comes death. After that comes a resurrection at which we must be changed.
This is just some of the Scripture that I can present here about what happens after death.
I am convinced that we sleep until the Lord descends from heaven with a shout.
I also believe that most people still believe that we go to either Heaven or Hell immediately after death.
A lot of Scripture tells me otherwise.
Chewbacca
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Post by Jan on Oct 22, 2003 20:49:01 GMT -5
Chew, you're gonna be so surprised when your physical body dies and you're in His loving arms!  <>< |
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Post by Chewbacca on Oct 23, 2003 6:25:22 GMT -5
Chew, you're gonna be so surprised when your physical body dies and you're in His loving arms! <>< Howdy Jan, Give me Scripture Evidence. I will be more than happy to discuss this issue with you. I want to weigh both sides of the issue. I have a lot more to present on this issue. The Bible is not supposed to contradict itself from what I understand. Did Jesus Lie then in John 3:13 Thanks Chewie |
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Post by Jan on Oct 23, 2003 8:56:06 GMT -5
John 3:13 is saying that He existed b4 He appeared on earth; that heaven was His true abode and that on earth, His spirit was in communication with heaven.  <><
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Post by Chewbacca on Oct 23, 2003 17:06:20 GMT -5
John 3:13 is saying that He existed b4 He appeared on earth; that heaven was His true abode and that on earth, His spirit was in communication with heaven. <>< KJV John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. NIV John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven, except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man. How did you get your interpretation of that verse from what it says? Those are Jesus Christ's own words. He would know if anyone has gone too heaven. Is Jesus a Lier? It is self explanatory as far as I am concerned. That verse says no one has gone too heaven yet other than God who is already in heaven. Jesus hadn't ascended too heaven as of yet. I can see where you might be afraid of believing that we don't go directly to heaven or hell immediately after death. There is much much more to this study than that one verse. I have atleast read over 500 verses concerning this. If you can't present your side of this issue, then I won't waste my time presenting anything more, which I have lots to present on it. It is not saying when Jesus existed, it is saying no one has gone to heaven as of yet. Why would the dead in Christ be resurrected then when Jesus comes with a shout? Actually heaven is where God is, we will be a part of the Kingdom of God. The little that I presented so far with the first post was only seven verses and you come back with that reply on John 3:13 only. Ya gotta do better than that. LOL Chewbacca |
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Post by genesda on Oct 24, 2003 7:59:29 GMT -5
You would never find soul sleep in the Bible. Our soul goes straight to heaven as I stated this verse 2Cor 5:8. I'm sure there are other references. I'll let you know as soon as I find them.
It wasn't until the pagan/Satanic Greeks started teaching about a division of the body and soul that this false belief began to be accepted.
In Genesis 2:7 we are told how a man was made by God and what man is, a living soul. No where does scripture ever say man was GIVEN a soul that lives a separate existance from the body.
I'll post the proof:
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was spoken to some alexandrian pharisees. These men had accepted pagan immortal-soulism while studing greek philosophy at Alexandria in Egypt. Immortal soulism was invading the jewish church during the intertestament period. At the time of Christ many had forsaken the OT doctrine of soul sleep and accepted Pagan greek immortal-soulism. Most jews including Christ and the apostles still held to the OT doctrine of soul sleep.
Josephus - Antiquities of the Jews Book 18 ch1 sec 3.
“They (the Pharisees) also believe that souls have an immortal vigor in them and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life, and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and to live again.”
It must be noted that it was only the Alexandrian Pharisees who accepted the pagan Greek idea of the immortality of the soul. These Pharisees believed that man had an immortal soul that lived inside a mortal body. When the mortal body died the immortal soul went to a subterraneous cavern to be punished or to paradise to receive rewards. The souls in paradise will eventually be raised from the dead when there will be a resurrection of the body. This body will be raised immortal and the immortal souls will be reunited with their bodies.
It must be noted that the Alexandrian Pharisees did not obtain these beliefs on the state of the dead from the Old Testament. They obtained it from the writings of the Apocrypha, the Pseudepigrapha, and from a Jewish Platonic philosopher named Philo of Alexandria.
Over a period of some two hundred years prior to Christ, tangent positions had been developing under the impact of Platonic philosophy. Thus the concept that Hades contained two chambers appeared in 4Esra 4:41 along with the idea that the righteous inhabit one chamber (Wisdom of Solomon) while the wicked are accursed, scourged, and tormented in the other (1 Enoch 22:9-13). The Midrash on Ruth 1:7 likewise assigns one chamber to the righteous with the wicked to the other. The visibility of one company to the other in the respective chambers is similarly in the Midrash on Eccl 7:14 and the wicked see the angels guard the righteous (4 Ezra 7:86).
4 Ezra: 85-95 tells of the welcoming of the righteous by companies of ministering angels. 4 Maccabees13: 17 mention the righteous as welcomed in Hades by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And finally the righteous are privileged to sit in Abrahams lap (The Talmud
This is what the New Catholic Encyclopedia (Vol. 13 pages. 449, 450) says under the heading “Soul (in the Bible)”: “Nepes [or, nephesh, the Hebrew word for ‘soul’] is used in regard to both animals and humans. If life is human, nepes is equivalent to the person, the ‘I.’ After death, the nepes goes to Sheol.
“The above summary indicates that there is no dichotomy [division into two parts]’ of body and soul in the OT. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepes, though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person.”
Then, under the subheading “in the New Testament,” the same work says as to soul: “It [psyché, the Greek word for soul] can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being.” This reference goes on to say that it was under Greek (not Christian) influence that psyche, unlike the equivalent Hebrew word nephesh, came to be considered as separate from the body and as immortal. It concludes: “As a living being, subject to various experiences,
it [psyche] can refer to animals, ‘And every live thing [psyche] in the sea died’ (Ap 16.3), or to humans, ‘Fear came upon every soul [psyche]’ (Acts 2.43; Rom 2.9; 13.1). Thus the psyche feels, loves and desires. In this connection it can be used to mean the personal or reflexive pronoun, as in Jn 10.24, ‘How long dost thou keep us [our psyches] in suspense?’”
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Post by genesda on Oct 24, 2003 8:03:36 GMT -5
Chew, you're gonna be so surprised when your physical body dies and you're in His loving arms! <>< [/color] |
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Post by genesda on Oct 24, 2003 8:11:21 GMT -5
The resurrection of the Believer is taking place every day!! Praise God!! God brings with Him Believers that have died before He comes. Peter, James & John saw Moses and Elias. But most important is the promise Christ made to Believers: John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? It must be nice to put together stories without ever taking other scriptures on the same subject into account. One can come up with all sorts of false beliefs.
On your first sentence. Who is going to be resurrected to meet the Lord in the air if there are instant resurrections that take place at the death of every saved person? Those are the Christians who are going to be ressurrected, as far as I can tell.
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Post by Jan on Oct 24, 2003 21:17:50 GMT -5
Chew quotes as SDA's believe in this matter. I don't know which denomination he belongs to, but he does have the correct biblical teachings on this subject. [/color][/quote] Because he quotes what SDA's believe, makes his views correct? I don't think so. For example, he used John 3:13 - what in the world does that have to do with the topic? Uhmm.... <>< |
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Post by Chewbacca on Oct 25, 2003 20:11:15 GMT -5
Because he quotes what SDA's believe, makes his views correct? I don't think so. For example, he used John 3:13 - what in the world does that have to do with the topic? Uhmm.... <><[/quote I am not quoting any SDA Garbage here. It all comes out of the Bible. I am of no Denomination. The Bible is my source. You people are incredible. I mention one verse out of the Trillion I could present and you come up with that Garbage. End of Story. Believe what you want. I was not trying to change your mind, but look at the other side of the issue, which you will not do. John 3:13 has everything to do with the Topic. And it is only one verse of the Trillion verses. DUH! Go live in your own misery You have not presented anything that tells me your side. What a Joke. |
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Post by Jan on Oct 27, 2003 20:46:29 GMT -5
A little testy are we Chew? John 3:13 is plain and simple - sorry you don't agree, but is that any reason to speak as you have?  <>< |
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