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Post by parousia70 on Sept 26, 2003 15:54:56 GMT -5
Believers die No Only the flesh dies. I haven't seen anyone else with my view, so let me explain. The Bible speaks to two different groups of people: 1. Those that have accepted Christ as Lord & Savior 2. The lost When the lost die, I believe they sleep until the judgement. Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: I don't believe a Believer dies! The writer of Hebrews above just got through teaching that each man has an appointment with physical death. Scripture teaches that The resurrection of Living belivers can not, does not, preceed the resurrection of the dead ones. For you or I to get our spiritual bodies upon physical death, the resurrection of the dead must be past.
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Post by col311 on Sept 26, 2003 17:27:37 GMT -5
I am not sure if this is directed to me but I will hazard an answer anyway... I believe the Lord HAS come and it is only natural that any deaths following His return would be immediately judged and sent to their respective eternities. Therefore I believe for each individual there is a White Throne Judgement NOW... When Jesus came again there was a pkmtyolm White Throne Judgement in which the dead before Christ's death were judged and separated from those who by faith were deemed righteous. Then Christ conquered Satan and now sends unbelievers to hell and believers to eternity in His presence. It is late... I hope that makes sense... I will read it tomorrow and see YOUR view is duly noted....
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Post by col311 on Sept 26, 2003 17:46:02 GMT -5
But you just told me you believed they at least began to rise at either the crusifixion or the ascention, now you say they don't rise until the 2nd coming (parousia)? That sounds more like your view to me. But listen, You're the one who said you believed that we get a Physical body when we die and get to heaven. My view is it would be JUST our souls that would immediately be with Christ. Our physical won't be transformed and resurrected until the coming of the Lord. 1Thess 4:15-17
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Post by col311 on Sept 26, 2003 17:52:12 GMT -5
I'm sorry but that is about the worst advice you could ever give anyone. What possible reason for or good could come from accepting any view because it is popular? Keeping an open mind and accepting a view based on it's popularity is oxymoronic. Hank is a partial preterist. You're right. "accept" is the wrong word for it . The key word is partial preterist. Besides It was hank Himself ( I heard it out of his words ) That he will not Officialy announce his view on esciatology ( bad spelling ) until he is ready to do so. He is currently wrapping up his 5 year study, and will release a series of books on his view of the topic.
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Post by col311 on Sept 26, 2003 18:16:29 GMT -5
But you just told me you believed they at least began to rise at either the crusifixion or the ascention, now you say they don't rise until the 2nd coming (parousia I was specifically responding to your question of WHEN Did this change for us as to where we go. The fact that Jesus said to the thief TODAY you would be with me in paridise, meant that today he was going to be with Jesus. And like I said before When Stephen told Jesus to receive my spirit. I was addressing the issue of the timing of the situation. Mat 27:51,52 Probably wasn't the best illistration to use, but to me that signified Christ making it possible for believers to directly into God's presence.
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Post by parousia70 on Sept 26, 2003 18:22:48 GMT -5
But listen, You're the one who said you believed that we get a Physical body when we die and get to heaven. I never said, nor do I believe, any such thing. Impossible, if Christ has not yet returned: John 14:3, And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; [so that] where I am, there you may be also. Our Physical bodies will not be transformed into anything but the dust from which they came.
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Post by parousia70 on Sept 26, 2003 18:24:47 GMT -5
I was specifically responding to your question of WHEN Did this change for us as to where we go. The fact that Jesus said to the thief TODAY you would be with me in paridise, meant that today he was going to be with Jesus. Which brings us back to the previously tabled topic of where Jesus went that day. It wasn't heaven I assure you.
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Post by col311 on Sept 26, 2003 18:32:37 GMT -5
Hold on!
Stay online!
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Post by col311 on Sept 26, 2003 18:36:00 GMT -5
I never said, nor do I believe, any such thing. Please RE READ The first paragraph of reply 4 of this thread.
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Post by col311 on Sept 26, 2003 18:39:40 GMT -5
RE READ 1 thess 4:16
I want you to read it and then post word for word what it says.
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Post by col311 on Sept 26, 2003 18:46:26 GMT -5
Hi Janeto, As a consistant preterist, I believe that we Believers are immediatly clothed in our resurrection bodies and ushered into heaven upon physical death, where we shall ever be with the Lord. In Contrast, unbelievers are immediatly Judged and cast into the lake of fire. The wait is over. Phoenix, as to "today you shall be with me in paradise" I believe Jesus must have been referring to "Abrahams Bosom", the section of Hades reserved for the saints and believers in Christ before the parousia. I believe this because Jesus did not go into Heaven that day, He went to Hades. He referred it to the thief as paradise, but it wasn't "Heaven". Thoughts? Talk about being oxymoronic!!!! You're quoteing John and saying that we won't be with the the Lord until he comes From this quote you're saying that we are clothed in our resurrected bodies and ushered into heaven! Keep track of what you say!!!!
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Post by col311 on Sept 26, 2003 19:00:13 GMT -5
Here's your dilema: Scripture states that, as of the time of the writing of John, no one had yet ascended into heaven. (John 3:13) OMG!!!!! He was writing about the time when Jesus was on earth! He was writing another gospel of Christ from his vew. This is jesus's story when he was here! It doesn't matter when it was written! Because he wasn't talking about how things were when he was writing, But how it was when he was around. *** That's right ... no one ascended to heaven BACK AT the time when he was talking to Nicodemus
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Post by col311 on Sept 26, 2003 19:14:49 GMT -5
HELLO !!!! I'm leaving in a sec.
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Post by parousia70 on Sept 26, 2003 19:15:57 GMT -5
Please RE READ The first paragraph of reply 4 of this thread. I'll quote it for you here: "As a consistant preterist, I believe that we Believers are immediatly clothed in our resurrection bodies and ushered into heaven upon physical death, where we shall ever be with the Lord." Now, where in this do you come up with the notion that I believe we get resurrected physical bodies when we die?
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Post by parousia70 on Sept 26, 2003 19:18:40 GMT -5
Talk about being oxymoronic!!!! You're quoteing John and saying that we won't be with the the Lord until he comes From this quote you're saying that we are clothed in our resurrected bodies and ushered into heaven! Keep track of what you say!!!! How is this oxymoronic?
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