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Post by donkeydude on Feb 21, 2005 16:58:16 GMT -5
How about a person who is on a respirator, or with some other medical device that keeps them alive when they would otherwise not be able to sustain their own lives? How about the comatose patients who cannot sustain their own lives? What about the premature babies who can be saved through modern medicine, but could be aborted if they stayed in the womb? If that person is conscience and chooses to remain on life support then fine, but I do not believe we should keep the bodies of brain dead people alive. As for comatose patients that is decsion for the family of the patient to make.
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Feb 22, 2005 9:21:32 GMT -5
If that person is conscience and chooses to remain on life support then fine, but I do not believe we should keep the bodies of brain dead people alive. As for comatose patients that is decsion for the family of the patient to make. You neglected to answer the question about the baby who could be saved if born prematurely, but would be allowed to be aborted if it wasn't premature. What is the difference here?
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Post by LauraJean on Feb 22, 2005 16:36:35 GMT -5
I apologize I worded my reply incorrectly. No one personal beliefs should be forced on another concerning abortion. Okay, thanks for the clarification! Someday, soon, we'll embark on a discussion about the nature of Leadership. (It's different from forcing personal beliefs on others) Just trying to get a little more clarification from you on the follwing two statements: and Are you saying that you support abortion only until mid-term or just that this is what most people decide? Can you clarify if you're saying that a fetus is not a life until the 4th month, or if it's not a life until, as you say elsewhere "until it can sustain life on its own"? I hate to be so nit-picky here on the front end, but I'm trying to pinpoint your thoughts on this issue so that I don't make assumptions or put words in your mouth. On another topic, in response to me pointing out that Roe v. Wade is based on a Constitutional fallacy, (the right to privacy) you say: Do you really want to stand by this comment? Because you have managed, with this one sentence, (unwittingly, I suspect) to trash the Constitution. Think about the chaos that would ensue if everyone espoused this kind of thinking. Talk about opening the barn door to despotism and dictatorialism! And, finally, you brought up your faith, which I am happy to point out no one has questioned. For me, this aspect of the whole abortion debate really isn't about faith, but in another thread I'd be happy to probe the faith-based aspect of the abortion debate with you. Anyway, have a blessed day. I look forward to your replies! LJ
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Post by heathen76 on Feb 23, 2005 8:43:03 GMT -5
Think about the chaos that would ensue if everyone espoused this kind of thinking. Talk about opening the barn door to despotism and dictatorialism! Wow, imagine if a president were to try to change the Constitution to fit his own brand of morality! Say, by using it to discriminate against a whole segment of the population.
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Post by donkeydude on Feb 23, 2005 23:57:42 GMT -5
I plan to tackle all questions soon, but right I am reading like crazy for my midterms.
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Post by k8reader on Feb 24, 2005 7:01:27 GMT -5
I would never personally make such a distinction. That is why I constantly oppose any legal recognition of a fetus. Never? Really? But isn't that exactly what you did here?: Weren’t you relating a fetus/pregnancy to a child? One day when you and your partner/wife decide that it IS the right time to have a child, when will you consider what is growing inside her to be a child - your child? This is a hard question, but I'll ask it: If it is not the right time to have a child, then why are you having intimate relations? Wouldn't it be best for everyone if you waited until marriage? Do you suport abortion as a way to continue having s-x? That's what I would have done. I would have justified my sin, because I enjoyed it. That is the nature of the flesh. I don't know, maybe you don't see it that way. But, as you sister in Christ, I have to speak plainly. Love to you Donkeydude, and I will pray for you to do well on your midterms!
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Post by donkeydude on Feb 24, 2005 17:37:18 GMT -5
Just trying to get a little more clarification from you on the follwing two statements: and Are you saying that you support abortion only until mid-term or just that this is what most people decide? Can you clarify if you're saying that a fetus is not a life until the 4th month, or if it's not a life until, as you say elsewhere "until it can sustain life on its own"? I hate to be so nit-picky here on the front end, but I'm trying to pinpoint your thoughts on this issue so that I don't make assumptions or put words in your mouth. It seems reasonable to me to limit abortions to the first trimester. I am not a physican nor do I plan on being one. So, I don't exactly when the most reasonable cut off point is. I don't think an 8th month abortion should be a regular thing. I do see the shades of grey. The constitution is a living breathing document, and it is to be interpreted by the supreme court. If those justices found saw the right privacy in the document they well within thier right and place to do so. Another debate I enjoy is the right to bear arms. No where specifically is it written that indivdual citzens have that right. It all found in the interpretation. I did jump the gun when suggesting that might happen. In the past it would have been a sure thing, I am thankful that while board has decreased in size those left behind a civilized.
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Post by donkeydude on Feb 24, 2005 17:46:24 GMT -5
Weren’t you relating a fetus/pregnancy to a child? One day when you and your partner/wife decide that it IS the right time to have a child, when will you consider what is growing inside her to be a child - your child? This is a hard question, but I'll ask it: If it is not the right time to have a child, then why are you having intimate relations? Wouldn't it be best for everyone if you waited until marriage? Do you suport abortion as a way to continue having s-x? That's what I would have done. I would have justified my sin, because I enjoyed it. That is the nature of the flesh. I don't know, maybe you don't see it that way. But, as you sister in Christ, I have to speak plainly. Love to you Donkeydude, and I will pray for you to do well on your midterms! I did relate a pregnancy to a child because if carried to term it will become one. As for the premarital sex issue, it's a choice we made together and we love each other. I personally don't see a problem with it and neither does she we the only two people that really matter when it comes to that choice. We take precautions to avoid pregnancy and once to due negeligence on both our parts we had to resort to Plan B, or the morning after pill as it is known. The only thing I can really add is I love her and plan to spend my life with her.
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Post by k8reader on Feb 24, 2005 18:13:24 GMT -5
As for the premarital sex issue, it's a choice we made together and we love each other. I personally don't see a problem with it and neither does she we the only two people that really matter when it comes to that choice. We take precautions to avoid pregnancy and once to due negeligence on both our parts we had to resort to Plan B, or the morning after pill as it is known. The only thing I can really add is I love her and plan to spend my life with her. Donkeydude, I'm so very sorry that the two of you went through that. It must have been so frightening, horrible and sad. As far as premarital sex is concerned, it is not up to me to tell you what you should or shouldn't do. But please allow me to say that I believe God has given us His law as a guide to the best, and most enjoyable way to live our lives. It is for OUR benefit when we live according to God's design. When we stray from God's law, our lives are not as great as they could be. Our experiences aren't as special, thrilling, fulfilling and blessed. Just think of what a beautiful gift it is for a couple to keep themselves (virgin) for the celebration of their wedding night! Think of the gift of not having to worry about an unwanted pregnancy! You are right, premarital sex is up to you (and her), but you are cheating yourselves of a better way. I think it is wonderful that you are in love!! When you get married, I will be smiling - and share in your joy! Good for you, that you know who you want! May God Bless you both!
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Post by donkeydude on Feb 24, 2005 21:13:49 GMT -5
Donkeydude, I'm so very sorry that the two of you went through that. It must have been so frightening, horrible and sad. It was scary of course, but we knew where to go and what to do. I worry about the highschool kids who find themselves in similar situations but victims of abstinence only sex education and end becoming parents at 16. I fully respect and and admire your beliefs when it comes to saving one's self for marriage, but in the truth is only very few will do that. We need to teach our young children all the options so that when they make that choice and it is a choice they will have to make they know all the options and can best protect themselves. I know this is a little off topic, but I had to share my thoughts on it. It is wonderful. Life is filled with so much joy since she came into my life. She made dealing with my father's death this past summer much easier. She is an amazing woman and I am lucky to even know her, let alone share the relationship we do.
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Post by k8reader on Feb 25, 2005 11:24:48 GMT -5
It was scary of course, but we knew where to go and what to do. I worry about the highschool kids who find themselves in similar situations but victims of abstinence only sex education and end becoming parents at 16. We need to teach our young children all the options so that when they make that choice and it is a choice they will have to make they know all the options and can best protect themselves. I know this is a little off topic, but I had to share my thoughts on it. Hey Donkeydude, Since the topic of this thread is intellectual honesty, I want you to really examine (intellectually) what you have just said. Weren't you a 'victim' of abstinence only sex education in high school too? If so, then how did you know "where to go and what to do"?? Do you believe that sex education in schools has become more conservative over time? Has this perceived change in sex education in the schools been the cause of the dramatic rise in teen pregnancies over the past few decades? Do you believe that knowledge about contraception is the same as actually choosing to use contraception? Just a side bar, one of the biggest problems facing health agencies in stemming the horrible AIDs epidemic in Africa, is the males’ refusal to use condoms. I disagree that simply providing information will change people's behavior. But, let's say education is a major factor. Why didn't you suggest a huge educational program promoting adoption? Would it make any difference? Do you honestly believe that 16 year olds are victims of their high school sex education cpkmtyolles?? Do you think that 14, 15, 16 year olds don't have a clue about sex, contraception, abortion, adoption, and pregnancy? Do you honestly think that those teens that DO use contraception, did so because they learned about it in some high school course? Did YOU learn about contraception in your high school? Be honest. Sadly, I think you are right. Very few will get the reward of marrying as a virgin, much less even marrying their first and only. Why do you think that is? In my opinion the joy and value of the physical relationship has become underemphasized. It is treated as if it is no big deal, like it is simply a way to feel good. But, it IS a big deal. How can two human beings get any closer to each other? Sex is a huge deal. You expressed valuing love as a condition for intimacy, someone else may value a physical attraction as a condition, while someone else may value someone who is free of disease to have sex with... Do you see the slope? Even though few will choose the BEST way, does that mean that the best way shouldn't be what we promote? One day, what will you promote with your daughter? A certain age? A certain emotional attraction? A condition of using birth control? I don't know you, but I believe you will promote what is BEST for you daughter. And if she doesn't do what is best, you will be disappointed for her, there is no going back. That doesn't mean you don't love her anymore, or that you are judging her - it just means you wanted what was best for her. I'm sorry I am rambling. I guess it is because I know what Satan says. He tells you that God wants you to be happy, and that He doesn't want you to be without sex, it is just the church that is trying to control you.. That is what Satan says, I've heard it myself. The TRUTH is that God DOES want you to be happy. God KNOWS what will make you happy. God has given us His law that will lead you to happiness. Whether it is the laws concerning sex and marriage, or the laws concerning how we treat each other, or worshipping Him - these things will make us happier then we ever thought possible. I think that it is so easy for us to point our fingers at sin and "command" others to refrain from it, instead of intellectually explaining why it is in our best interests NOT to sin. That would include my saying that it is YOUR best interests (and your girlfriend’s) to abstain from sex until marriage, even now. Can you imagine how great it would be on your wedding night after so much time? Can’t you see how much of a sacrifice you would be making for each other by deciding to wait? At the same time, you would be eliminating the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy. To temporarily sacrifice your own physical pleasure so that you aren’t risking her body (with pregnancy or abortion) is a demonstration of love and commitment – not a bad thing. I am very happily married, so it is very easy for me to tell YOU to wait. I have my own struggles with sin, I know that I shouldn’t drink so much. But instead of abstaining, I justify and excuse my behavior. I even KNOW what is best, and I don’t choose it. We are all in the same boat donkeydude. I encourage you to live as God desires us to live, but I understand why you wouldn’t – I don’t either. It is the battle of the flesh, that one day we will all be free from . I'll bet she feels the same about you! We are studying loving relationships in Sunday school. One of the keys to a close, loving relationship is going through hard times/traumas together. Sharing that pain has given you two a bond that will never be broken. I'm so sorry about you losing your father. He must have been young. What happened? The emotion and changes that occur when we lose a parent are enormous. How is your mother doing?
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Post by donkeydude on Feb 25, 2005 12:14:46 GMT -5
Hey Donkeydude, Since the topic of this thread is intellectual honesty, I want you to really examine (intellectually) what you have just said. Weren't you a 'victim' of abstinence only sex education in high school too? If so, then how did you know "where to go and what to do"?? Do you believe that sex education in schools has become more conservative over time? Has this perceived change in sex education in the schools been the cause of the dramatic rise in teen pregnancies over the past few decades? Do you believe that knowledge about contraception is the same as actually choosing to use contraception? Just a side bar, one of the biggest problems facing health agencies in stemming the horrible AIDs epidemic in Africa, is the males’ refusal to use condoms. I disagree that simply providing information will change people's behavior. But, let's say education is a major factor. Why didn't you suggest a huge educational program promoting adoption? Would it make any difference? Do you honestly believe that 16 year olds are victims of their high school sex education cpkmtyolles?? Do you think that 14, 15, 16 year olds don't have a clue about sex, contraception, abortion, adoption, and pregnancy? Do you honestly think that those teens that DO use contraception, did so because they learned about it in some high school course? Did YOU learn about contraception in your high school? Be honest. I didn't learn anything in school concerning sex. My mother taught me at a young age what I need to know if I was to make the choice to become sexually active. While in some cases lack of knowledge is a problem the major problem for teens to today is access. They either don't know where to get condoms and birth control or cannot afford them. Society needs to makes these things available to everyone. I can't tell you why most people won't wait. The one thing I do know is in my case is it felt perfectly right. I don't know why it just did and remains that way. All in all it's a personal choice that each couple has to make for themselves. When it comes for me tell my children, son or daughter, I will in the same manner that my mother taught me. The choice after that belongs to them, however it may be guided. Whether it is faith, love, or physical desire. The choice is theirs and their partners alone. I hope she feels the same, I can't imagine life without her. My father pkmtyolped away due to exposure to agent orange in Vietnam. He was a U.S. Army Green Beret. The lung cancer showed itself in January of 2004 he pkmtyolped away in May. He was 57. My mother too is gone. She pkmtyolped in 1999 from breast cancer. Her battle lasted much longer, nearly two years. She was 49. I miss them both more than words can explain. The love I have now makes living without my parents bearable.
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beth
New Member
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Post by beth on Feb 25, 2005 18:40:49 GMT -5
Uh Donkey, am I correct in assuming you call yourself a Christian? God treats a baby in the womb as a living person. I am surprised that you see fit to deny them their humanity. Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers? (Job 31:15). Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast. From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God (Psalm 22:9-10). For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be (Psalm 139:13-16). This is what the LORD says--he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you … (Isaiah 44:2). Listen to me, O house of Jacob, all you who remain of the house of Israel, you whom I have upheld since you were conceived, and have carried since your birth. Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you (Isaiah 46:3-4). And now the LORD says--he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength (Isaiah 49:5). This next one you should pay particular attention to: [glow=red,2,300]The word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations" (Jeremiah 1:4-5).[/glow] You tell me, how is God going to "know" a lump of dividing cells as you put it? When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy" (Luke 1:41-42, 44). Proverbs 6:16-19 These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. Did you know that an unborn baby has blood by the time its 8 weeks gestation? Yup sure does, it has a heartbeat! And that is beating for some reason don't you think? Now I ask you, how much more inoocent can you get? Day one- Conception One week- Attaches to wall of womb Two weeks- Stops mother's menstrual period Three weeks- Heart is beating Six weeks- Brain waves measurable/ Moves and responds to touch 8 weeks- HEARTBEAT- can be heard on office ultra-sonic stethoscope HEART- has been beating for one month EKG- electrocadiogram can be done BRAIN WAVES- were measurable 2 weeks ago FEELS PAIN- and responds to touch SUCKS THUMB GRASPS- instrument placed in his/her palm SWIMS- with a natural swimmer's stroke 2 1/2 months- body completly formed, even fingerprints 3 months- All organ systems functioning After three months- nothing new develops/ There is only growth in size and maturity. This photo is at eight weeks gestation, looks human to me! Have a good one donkey.
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Post by donkeydude on Feb 25, 2005 19:17:50 GMT -5
Uh Donkey, am I correct in assuming you call yourself a Christian? God treats a baby in the womb as a living person. I am surprised that you see fit to deny them their humanity. Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers? (Job 31:15). Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast. From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God (Psalm 22:9-10). For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be (Psalm 139:13-16). This is what the LORD says--he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you … (Isaiah 44:2). Listen to me, O house of Jacob, all you who remain of the house of Israel, you whom I have upheld since you were conceived, and have carried since your birth. Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you (Isaiah 46:3-4). And now the LORD says--he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength (Isaiah 49:5). This next one you should pay particular attention to: [glow=red,2,300]The word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations" (Jeremiah 1:4-5).[/glow] You tell me, how is God going to "know" a lump of dividing cells as you put it? When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy" (Luke 1:41-42, 44). Proverbs 6:16-19 These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. Did you know that an unborn baby has blood by the time its 8 weeks gestation? Yup sure does, it has a heartbeat! And that is beating for some reason don't you think? Now I ask you, how much more inoocent can you get? Day one- Conception One week- Attaches to wall of womb Two weeks- Stops mother's menstrual period Three weeks- Heart is beating Six weeks- Brain waves measurable/ Moves and responds to touch 8 weeks- HEARTBEAT- can be heard on office ultra-sonic stethoscope HEART- has been beating for one month EKG- electrocadiogram can be done BRAIN WAVES- were measurable 2 weeks ago FEELS PAIN- and responds to touch SUCKS THUMB GRASPS- instrument placed in his/her palm SWIMS- with a natural swimmer's stroke 2 1/2 months- body completly formed, even fingerprints 3 months- All organ systems functioning After three months- nothing new develops/ There is only growth in size and maturity. This photo is at eight weeks gestation, looks human to me! Have a good one donkey. Yes, not only do I call myself a Christian I am one. You present a compelling case, one that I have heard many times before. The truth is this is the most divisive issue in American politics, the two sides will never reach an agreement. I personally, if it were possible for me to become pregnant, would never consider an abortion, but I support the rights of others who would choose otherwise.
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Post by k8reader on Feb 26, 2005 13:03:10 GMT -5
My father pkmtyolped away due to exposure to agent orange in Vietnam. He was a U.S. Army Green Beret. The lung cancer showed itself in January of 2004 he pkmtyolped away in May. He was 57. My mother too is gone. She pkmtyolped in 1999 from breast cancer. Her battle lasted much longer, nearly two years. She was 49. I miss them both more than words can explain. The love I have now makes living without my parents bearable. How awful to have lost both of your parents. Is there someone in your church who you could ask to be a mentor/encourager? Many of the adult men in our church have someone they have asked to be in this role. You shouldn't have to go through life without some older, adult guidance and encouragement. Don't let your pride get the better of you, we all need each other. May you feel the presence of the Lord in a strong and powerful way.
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