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Post by genesda on Jun 21, 2004 6:48:25 GMT -5
but you read so selectively. Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. How would it be possible for anyone to kill the body but not the soul if , as you say, the soul is simply some mixture of the body and God's spirit? The conclusion you've reached here is the result of selective reading, not what I wrote. Jesus was speaking to those who had accepted the false notion of a separate body/soul.
Where is the actual teaching of a soul that goes to heaven at death as the body lies in the grave? If you can show me that TEACHING, I'll change what I believe to be true. At the same time, show me where man is GIVEN a soul. I've only read where man IS a living soul.
Then please show where this teaching of a separate soul DIDN'T originate with the pagan Greeks.
I've posted many times from the New Catholic encylopedia where this claim coming from the pagan Greeks is made.
I refuse to believe fairy tales and like to stick to biblical TEACHINGS, not a scripture here or there that is INTERPRETED.
[/color]
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Post by I2AM4GOD on Jun 21, 2004 6:59:05 GMT -5
Pietro, I suspect Gene won't answer your last two posts, or he will claim that the pkmtyolpages have been deliberately mistranslated by the Roman Catholics, according to Satanic/Pagan beliefs, as directed by the Virgin Mary. I hope he doesn't resort to such foolish SDA talk. Gene, we're waiting..... Andy.
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Post by genesda on Jun 21, 2004 7:21:30 GMT -5
[quote author=I2AM4GOD The Breath of life/spirit/power of life is what returns to God when death occurs and the bible makes no distinction between the wicked and the righteous or the animals. First of all, we have been "created in the image of God" - so that means we're not animals. I have some bad news for you. Man and animals have the same origin, the udst of the ground. This has nothing to do with man's superority over animals. We all have the same beginning, MUD! While it is true that God's original creation was created from "mud" as you put it, that doesn't alter the fact that God has created us "in His image", to rule over the animals and care for them. Remember, it is we who have wilfully sinned against our Creator. Jesus Christ came into the world, in our likeness, to die on the cross, so that by faith in Him we can be reconciled to our Father in Heaven. And secondly, God makes a distinction between the righteous and the unrighteous - the unrighteous go to Hell and the righteous return to Him. [/color] Where can I read of this because it isn't biblical. The spirit of all returns to God at death.
It isn't Biblical to you because of what you have been taught. The spirits of the saved return to God, not the spirits of the wicked, otherwise Hell is irrelevant. The bible says no such thing. As I said, you are confused about what the spirit of God is and what the holy Spirit is. God's spirit or breath of life or power of life is what every human receives to sustain life. THIS is what returns to God when death occurs. God's spirit is withdrawn and death occurs. This is the spirit that returns to God and it doesn't matter if one is righteous or wicked. That power of life/breath of life/spirit returns to God. This is an exact biblical truth.
Again, you're confused by all of this. That's why you need to have proper study. [/color] And being confused yourself, you assume this about me.No, I believe this because of how you write. [/color] Genesis 2:7 tells us that in order for man to live, God gives us His spirit/breath of life. God gave each one of us a soul and spirit of our own at the moment of conception.No He didn't This is a pagan lie and not biblical. [/color] And this is true for you, as it's what you have been taught.I've posted the truth about the origin of this pagan teaching. maybe you can't accept it because of what you've been taught. [/color] Before that man is mud. I wasn't mud. I was a sperm and an egg before I was conceived. ;D What do you become after you die and are buried? [/color] My physical body turns to dust. Really, Gene, you shouldn't have needed to ask me that question! You did know, didn't you?My point exactly. You return to your origin. [/color] The breath of life/spirit plus the mud equals a living soul. If you separate them, all you have left is what was there originally. Which is extremely bad news if you've just been cremated. All that remains of you is ash. Resurrection? - forget it! What use is ash to God?!You have no idea of the power of God or what he can do. [/color] Really, Gene, you can do much better than to make an untrue statement of that nature. I am well aware of what God can do and has done. Then why did you make the above statement. I see the evidence of his handiwork every day - His Creation! But, unlike you, I choose to use my brain to understand what people are telling me. I don't believe in brainlessly taking in everything I'm told. Much of what I'm told I reject, but not everything.[/color] O.K., so do I. I was told the same things you profess, but when I saw the truth I wasn't too ingrained in a denomination or proud to admit that I'd been given false ideas that were presented as truth. I accepted the bible over man's ideas and changed my position. I guess I'm asking too much for others to do the same. [/color] Jesus nor any apostle ever taught that there was a soul or spirit that lived on after the death of the body. Really? So His warnings of eternal punishment in Hell for the wicked was just so much hot air? No need for repentance, no need for salvation. Christ's death on the cross was all in vain.I never said any such thing. These are conclusions you've jumped to. [/color] Conclusions drawn from what you're saying.IT's not from what I've said. I fully believe there will be a lake of fire that the unsaved will pay for their sins in, and that punishment will be irreversable for all eternity. There will be no future resurrection from those that are desatroyed in the lake of fire. [/color] Andy, I used to believe as you until I was shown the truth of what the bible actually says. The first thing you have to get over is the simpkle fact that the phrase "immortal soul" is not found anywhere in the body. The second is that the bioble does say "only God hath immortality". What if the word "immortal" means an eternally abundant life with Christ? And "eternal" can mean the everlasting destiny of the soul.There you are with that "the soul" again.Immortal means "without end" Eternal means "without end". It all depends on the context of the words. Sometimes "eternal" doesn't mean without end. The translators did a good job, but not a perfect one. [/color] Oh, I love this. Now you are saying that you know better than the translators of the Holy Scriptures. And, according to you, the word "eternal" doesn't mean "without end".No, Andy. The words "ever" "everlasting" come from the Greek "Aion" which can mean without end or the end of the age. The bible says the lake of fire will be ON the Earth. The bible says the Earth will be recreated. The two can't occupy the same earth at the same time. The bible says Satan will be burned to ashes and will be no more. Those ashes will be under the feet of man. How do you reconcile those biblical facts if there is to be an eternal fire? By the way, the bible says that Sodom burned with an unquenchable fire. If that fire was really unquenchable, it would still be burning. Is Sodom still burning? [/color] Satan has deceived many with has twists on what the bible actually says about things. That's why I maintain the whole bible should be used to get a proper consenus on a subject for proper TEACHINGS and not just a verse here or there. I have no problem with that, but doesn't it also say in the Bible "Lean not on your own understanding"? Be careful that you don't do that!The bible says to rightly divide the truth. That means to study and take all scriptures on a subject into consideration to get the truth. We should never discard any scriptures because we don't understand them in order to hang onto something we've been told and like. When the bible speaks of "body,soul and spirit, it's talking about the complete man, physical and mental. Your "spirit" could be said to be your "character" and that would be correct too. Your body is a living soul according to Genesis 2:7. Nowhere does the bible ever say that man HAS a soul. This is an assumption based on the pagan/Satanic Greek teachings that crept into Christianity.
Answer this, do you believe it is biblical for the Rcc to have statues in their churches where some kneel before them and pray to what they represent?
If you answer "no", then explain why not. [/color] Andy. Be back Monday. I look forward to seeing you then.I'm back. [/color]
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Post by I2AM4GOD on Jun 21, 2004 7:23:15 GMT -5
but you read so selectively. Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. How would it be possible for anyone to kill the body but not the soul if , as you say, the soul is simply some mixture of the body and God's spirit? The conclusion you've reached here is the result of selective reading, not what I wrote. Jesus was speaking to those who had accepted the false notion of a separate body/soul.
And where does it say that in Matthew?
Where is the actual teaching of a soul that goes to heaven at death as the body lies in the grave? If you can show me that TEACHING, I'll change what I believe to be true.
The bodies that we presently have are only mortal. Our souls live on after death, otherwise resurrection would not happen.
At the same time, show me where man is GIVEN a soul. I've only read where man IS a living soul.
Pietro has given you a few scriptures which confirm the point that the soul of a man is not his physical body. Can a surgeon physically operate on a man's mind, his will, his emotions? Nope. However, he can operate on his brain. But his brain is not his soul/personality.
Then please show where this teaching of a separate soul DIDN'T originate with the pagan Greeks.
Gene, it is mentioned in the Bible and isn't disputed anywhere in the scriptures.
I've posted many times from the New Catholic encylopedia where this claim coming from the pagan Greeks is made.
Many of the so-called Pagan/Greeks as you like to call them are in fact "born-again" committed Christians. The are renowned for their philosophical perspective on things. And if it wasn't for them, the concept of democracy wouldn't exist. You hate the Roman Catholic Church, so why do you have a copy of their "New Catholic Encyclopedia"?
I refuse to believe fairy tales and like to stick to biblical TEACHINGS, not a scripture here or there that is INTERPRETED.
Correction: You like to stick to the unbiblical teachings of the SDA. The Bible is not made up of fairy tales.Andy.
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Post by genesda on Jun 21, 2004 7:32:45 GMT -5
Also, in light of Revelations: Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. Both texts speak of the living souls of people who have died. How could one see the soul of someone beheaded if the soul is the combination of flesh and spirit as Genesda claims? Does God have headless people sitting on thrones? And this vision is before the final resurrection so it is not like he is seeing these souls after their bodies had been resurrected. And then ther is Luke: Luke 16:22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' and Paul 2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know–God knows. Paul may not know but Genesda would claim it must have been in the body. I suggest that what is going on here is a development. Much of the Old Testament speaks of the soul as Genesda maintains and the dead are just plain dead. But then some of the latter psalms and prophets, especially Isaiah, speak of a survival of death. By the time of the New Testament survival of physical death is a slam dunk. Genesda will say such thinking is a contamination of pagan Greek philosophy. It seems more reasonable to look at it as maturation just as the Gosepl of John takes the concept of Logos from pagan Greek philosphy and gives it new meaning in application to Christ. In the same way even before the time of Jesus jews were beginning to reflect on their theology and anthropology with Greek concepts. That paved the way for the eventual spread of Christianity. Had not the early Christians attempted to speak of Christ borrowing Greek philosophical concepts and interpreting the meaning of the incarnation that way we would have gotten no where. But the Greek influence is already seen in the Gospels, Epistles and Revelation as well as the Deuterocanonical Apocrypha. You've taken a few verses and placed them out of context as usual for Rc's. You've also taken symbolic language and are trying to make it literal. Do you really believe there is an alter in heaven and "souls" are residing beneath it? Do you really believe that men will be able to see those burning in the lake of fire? This is a paraable aimed at those Jews who suscribed to the false teachings that were brought back from Greece. You've also taken verses by Paul and applied understandings of those verses while completely ignoring other teachings that would contradict your understanding.
I'm glad you agree that the Greek (read Satanic) influence had taken some hold, but pagan teachings can never explain God truthfully. Satan would never gain by giving the truth about God but he would benefit by diluting that truth with his own falsehoods, which he did as evidenced here. [/color]
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Post by Pietro on Jun 21, 2004 8:39:50 GMT -5
You've taken a few verses and placed them out of context as usual for Rc's. You've also taken symbolic language and are trying to make it literal. [/color][/quote] This, of course is where people disagree: what to take literally and what to take symbolicly. You have proven nothing except that you do no better than the Catholics or anyone else in your selectivity.
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Post by I2AM4GOD on Jun 21, 2004 8:52:06 GMT -5
[quote author=genesda link=board=narrowdebate&thread=1080660457&start=47#3 date=1087820490 The Breath of life/spirit/power of life is what returns to God when death occurs and the bible makes no distinction between the wicked and the righteous or the animals. First of all, we have been "created in the image of God" - so that means we're not animals. I have some bad news for you. Man and animals have the same origin, the udst of the ground. This has nothing to do with man's superority over animals. We all have the same beginning, MUD! While it is true that God's original creation was created from "mud" as you put it, that doesn't alter the fact that God has created us "in His image", to rule over the animals and care for them. And secondly, God makes a distinction between the righteous and the unrighteous - the unrighteous go to Hell and the righteous return to Him.[/color] Where can I read of this because it isn't biblical. The spirit of all returns to God at death.
It isn't Biblical to you because of what you have been taught. The spirits of the saved return to God, not the spirits of the wicked, otherwise Hell is irrelevant. The bible says no such thing. As I said, you are confused about what the spirit of God is and what the holy Spirit is.
If I had been a young Christian, I might have believed this ignorant statement of yours, but I don't.
God's spirit or breath of life or power of life is what every human receives to sustain life.
Of course - except that my spirit is not the Holy Spirit of God.
THIS is what returns to God when death occurs.
The spirit of the one who has been crucified with Christ, and therefore become "born-again" in Christ, goes back to God.
God's spirit is withdrawn and death occurs.
The individual physically dies when his spirit is separated from his body by God.
This is the spirit that returns to God and it doesn't matter if one is righteous or wicked.
Oh, it matters. The wicked are sent to Hell.
That power of life/breath of life/spirit returns to God. This is an exact biblical truth.
I will never deny biblical truth. I do disagree with your interpretation of the pkmtyolpage. Your interpretation lacks understanding.
Again, you're confused by all of this. That's why you need to have proper study. [/color] And being confused yourself, you assume this about me.No, I believe this because of how you write. [/color] Your confusion has blinded you to what the scriptures are really saying.Genesis 2:7 tells us that in order for man to live, God gives us His spirit/breath of life. It's quite possible that in the very beginning God gave His Spirit to Adam and Eve and He left them the moment they sinned. They still had their own spirit after that.God gave each one of us a soul and spirit of our own at the moment of conception.No He didn't This is a pagan lie and not biblical. [/color] And this is true for you, as it's what you have been taught.I've posted the truth about the origin of this pagan teaching. maybe you can't accept it because of what you've been taught. [/color] Nice one. The problem is you question the scriptures themselves, but cannot prove what you say. Before that man is mud. I wasn't mud. I was a sperm and an egg before I was conceived. ;D What do you become after you die and are buried? [/color] My physical body turns to dust. Really, Gene, you shouldn't have needed to ask me that question! You did know, didn't you?My point exactly. You return to your origin. [/color] However, my soul and spirit don't turn to dust. I continue to exist in God's heavenly Kingdom - do you?The breath of life/spirit plus the mud equals a living soul. If you separate them, all you have left is what was there originally. Which is extremely bad news if you've just been cremated. All that remains of you is ash. Resurrection? - forget it! What use is ash to God?!You have no idea of the power of God or what he can do. [/color] Really, Gene, you can do much better than to make an untrue statement of that nature. I am well aware of what God can do and has done. Then why did you make the above statement. I see the evidence of his handiwork every day - His Creation! But, unlike you, I choose to use my brain to understand what people are telling me. I don't believe in brainlessly taking in everything I'm told. Much of what I'm told I reject, but not everything.[/color] O.K., so do I. I was told the same things you profess, but when I saw the truth I wasn't too ingrained in a denomination or proud to admit that I'd been given false ideas that were presented as truth. I accepted the bible over man's ideas and changed my position. I guess I'm asking too much for others to do the same. [/color] That statement is so ironic. You're so proud of being a Seventh Day Adventist that you consider anything anyone else has to say about the Holy Scriptures to be false! Your interpretations are always right and everybody else is always wrong. Now that is a dogmatic position to take.Immortal means "without end" Eternal means "without end". It all depends on the context of the words. Sometimes "eternal" doesn't mean without end. The translators did a good job, but not a perfect one. [/color] Oh, I love this. Now you are saying that you know better than the translators of the Holy Scriptures. And, according to you, the word "eternal" doesn't mean "without end".No, Andy. The words "ever" "everlasting" come from the Greek "Aion" which can mean without end or the end of the age. The bible says the lake of fire will be ON the Earth. The bible says the Earth will be recreated. The two can't occupy the same earth at the same time.
I've thought about that. But it doesn't change the fact that there is an eternal punishment awaiting the ungodly.
The bible says Satan will be burned to ashes and will be no more. Those ashes will be under the feet of man.
That's interesting. Could you please give me the scriptural pkmtyolpage which says that?
How do you reconcile those biblical facts if there is to be an eternal fire?
The eternal fire is mentioned in the Book of Revelation. The lake of fire is the eternal punishment of the wicked. I believe that the Sun may go supernova in a thousand years from now and that this planet will be burned up as a result. But what if this sun never dies? And could it be that lake of fire? - who knows, except God?
By the way, the bible says that Sodom burned with an unquenchable fire. If that fire was really unquenchable, it would still be burning. Is Sodom still burning? [/color] Not in the phsical sense as it no longer exists. But there may be a spiritual Sodom and Gomorrah - only God knows.Satan has deceived many with has twists on what the bible actually says about things. That's why I maintain the whole bible should be used to get a proper consenus on a subject for proper TEACHINGS and not just a verse here or there. And you've got a long, long, long way to go to properly understanding what you are reading. I have no problem with that, but doesn't it also say in the Bible "Lean not on your own understanding"? Be careful that you don't do that!The bible says to rightly divide the truth. That means to study and take all scriptures on a subject into consideration to get the truth. We should never discard any scriptures because we don't understand them in order to hang onto something we've been told and like. When the bible speaks of "body,soul and spirit, it's talking about the complete man, physical and mental. Your "spirit" could be said to be your "character" and that would be correct too. Your body is a living soul according to Genesis 2:7. Nowhere does the bible ever say that man HAS a soul. This is an assumption based on the pagan/Satanic Greek teachings that crept into Christianity.
There we go again.
Answer this, do you believe it is biblical for the Rcc to have statues in their churches where some kneel before them and pray to what they represent?
If you answer "no", then explain why not. [/color] I feel tempted to say "Yes", just to wind you up, but that wouldn't be Christian. No it isn't right to kneel and pray to statues. But I see nothing wrong with having statues.Andy. Be back Monday. I look forward to seeing you then.I'm back. [/color][/quote] I can see that!
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Post by I2AM4GOD on Jun 21, 2004 9:08:37 GMT -5
Also, in light of Revelations: Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. Both texts speak of the living souls of people who have died. How could one see the soul of someone beheaded if the soul is the combination of flesh and spirit as Genesda claims? Does God have headless people sitting on thrones? And this vision is before the final resurrection so it is not like he is seeing these souls after their bodies had been resurrected. And then ther is Luke: Luke 16:22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' and Paul 2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know–God knows. Paul may not know but Genesda would claim it must have been in the body. I suggest that what is going on here is a development. Much of the Old Testament speaks of the soul as Genesda maintains and the dead are just plain dead. But then some of the latter psalms and prophets, especially Isaiah, speak of a survival of death. By the time of the New Testament survival of physical death is a slam dunk. Genesda will say such thinking is a contamination of pagan Greek philosophy. It seems more reasonable to look at it as maturation just as the Gosepl of John takes the concept of Logos from pagan Greek philosphy and gives it new meaning in application to Christ. In the same way even before the time of Jesus jews were beginning to reflect on their theology and anthropology with Greek concepts. That paved the way for the eventual spread of Christianity. Had not the early Christians attempted to speak of Christ borrowing Greek philosophical concepts and interpreting the meaning of the incarnation that way we would have gotten no where. But the Greek influence is already seen in the Gospels, Epistles and Revelation as well as the Deuterocanonical Apocrypha. You've taken a few verses and placed them out of context as usual for Rc's. You've also taken symbolic language and are trying to make it literal. Do you really believe there is an alter in heaven and "souls" are residing beneath it? Do you really believe that men will be able to see those burning in the lake of fire? This is a paraable aimed at those Jews who suscribed to the false teachings that were brought back from Greece.
Where in the Bible is the pkmtyolpage mentioned as being a parable? I haven't come across it. You've also taken verses by Paul and applied understandings of those verses while completely ignoring other teachings that would contradict your understanding.
And those teachings are.....
I'm glad you agree that the Greek (read Satanic) influence had taken some hold, but pagan teachings can never explain God truthfully.
And you can?
Satan would never gain by giving the truth about God but he would benefit by diluting that truth with his own falsehoods.
Of course. And there are people like you who are never wrong. Am I right?
Andy.
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Post by genesda on Jun 21, 2004 9:20:06 GMT -5
And secondly, God makes a distinction between the righteous and the unrighteous - the unrighteous go to Hell and the righteous return to Him. [/color] Where can I read of this because it isn't biblical. The spirit of all returns to God at death. It isn't Biblical to you because of what you have been taught. The spirits of the saved return to God, not the spirits of the wicked, otherwise Hell is irrelevant. The bible says no such thing. As I said, you are confused about what the spirit of God is and what the holy Spirit is.
If I had been a young Christian, I might have believed this ignorant statement of yours, but I don't.
It's hard to resist making remarks that are derogatory because you've called the scriptures "ignorant" after I spoke of their words.
Ecc.3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. [/color] (Note: the spirit of God is in all living things. As I stated, you're confused about what the spirit/breath is. There is no distinction between the wicked and the righteous. ALL spirits return to God at death.) 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Ecc. 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
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Post by genesda on Jun 21, 2004 9:34:47 GMT -5
but you read so selectively. Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. How would it be possible for anyone to kill the body but not the soul if , as you say, the soul is simply some mixture of the body and God's spirit? The conclusion you've reached here is the result of selective reading, not what I wrote. Jesus was speaking to those who had accepted the false notion of a separate body/soul.
And where does it say that in Matthew?
Where is the actual teaching of a soul that goes to heaven at death as the body lies in the grave? If you can show me that TEACHING, I'll change what I believe to be true.
The bodies that we presently have are only mortal. Our souls live on after death, otherwise resurrection would not happen. Pure baloney! That has nothing at all to do with a future ressurrection. You're mixing pagan lies with scripture.
At the same time, show me where man is GIVEN a soul. I've only read where man IS a living soul.
Pietro has given you a few scriptures which confirm the point that the soul of a man is not his physical body. No he hasn't. There hasn't been one quote showing a separate soul and body posted because there isn't any. Pagan lies will never confirm scripture and that's what you're trying to do.
Can a surgeon physically operate on a man's mind, his will, his emotions? Nope. However, he can operate on his brain. But his brain is not his soul/personality.[/color] The brain is exactly where everything that a man is comes from. Thoughts, character, and deeds originate in the brain. [/color] Then please show where this teaching of a separate soul DIDN'T originate with the pagan Greeks. Gene, it is mentioned in the Bible and isn't disputed anywhere in the scriptures.Show it!! What ch and vs tells us that we have a separate soul/body? [/color] I've posted many times from the New Catholic encylopedia where this claim coming from the pagan Greeks is made. Many of the so-called Pagan/Greeks as you like to call them are in fact "born-again" committed Christians. Not when these teachings originated! Yes, Greeks were converted, but the idea of a separate soul/body didn't come from converted Christians. They originated with the pagans! The are renowned for their philosophical perspective on things. And if it wasn't for them, the concept of democracy wouldn't exist. I didn't say everything that came from the Greeks was bad, only the false teachings of a separate body/soul. Are you trying to justify the false by talking about some good that came from them? It is proven history that the idea came from the pagans/Satanic forces. Why do you try to justify these false teachings? [/color] You hate the Roman Catholic Church, so why do you have a copy of their "New Catholic Encyclopedia"?[/color] I don't hate Rc people at all. I expose false teachings whenever I can. That's not hatred. [/color] I refuse to believe fairy tales and like to stick to biblical TEACHINGS, not a scripture here or there that is INTERPRETED. Correction: You like to stick to the unbiblical teachings of the SDA. The Bible is not made up of fairy tales.[/b] Andy. Then , why do you insist on repeating them? You've offered nothing that disproves what I said about the separate body/soul coming from the pagan Greeks, but you insist on hanging onto that lie. You aren't quoting the scriptures, you're using traditional teachings and claiming they're biblical. It isn't me that sticks to unbiblical teachings. All you've offered is YOUR opinion that what I post is unbiblical, while you show nothing. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Jun 21, 2004 9:52:38 GMT -5
I've thought about that. But it doesn't change the fact that there is an eternal punishment awaiting the ungodly. Yes Andy, the punishMENT will be eternal, not the punishING. tHE FIRE WILL GO OUT AFTER IT'S DONE IT'S WORK and Jesus will recreate this Earth for the saved. [/color] The bible says Satan will be burned to ashes and will be no more. Those ashes will be under the feet of man. That's interesting. Could you please give me the scriptural pkmtyolpage which says that? [/color] Eze.28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. How do you reconcile those biblical facts if there is to be an eternal fire? The eternal fire is mentioned in the Book of Revelation. The lake of fire is the eternal punishment of the wicked. I believe that the Sun may go supernova in a thousand years from now and that this planet will be burned up as a result. But what if this sun never dies? And could it be that lake of fire? - who knows, except God? Now you're injecting ideas into this that have absolutely no biblical basis at all. The answers are in the bible, so why use your own ideas? [/color] By the way, the bible says that Sodom burned with an unquenchable fire. If that fire was really unquenchable, it would still be burning. Is Sodom still burning? Not in the phsical sense as it no longer exists. But there may be a spiritual Sodom and Gomorrah - only God knows. Now you're injecting more unbiblical ideas into the biblical story to justify your preconcieved notions about the word unquenchable. Sodom wasn't changed into another dimention where it's still burning and we can't see it. Why can't you just accept that the translators injected their ideas into the translations too? There was no transformation of the cities on the plain that were destroyed. The fire was unquenchable UNTIL the work of the fire was complete in the destruction of the cities, and it went out! The lake of fire will also go out when it's job is finished. I find that comforting. I worship a God that hands out justice. Some look to a God that would take pleasure in making sinners suffer thousands and thousands of milliniums for the sins of a few years here on Earth. That wouldn't be a loving God, but a tyrant that Satan wants people think He is. Satan gets people to hate God with his lies about "eternal suffer-ING, rather than God destroying the wicked out of existance so sin will no longer exist in the universe. The bible plainly states that only those " in Christ" will have eternal life. The wicked are not in Christ. They have no eternal existance. There is no immortal soul. That is a Satanic lie! [/color]
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Post by I2AM4GOD on Jun 21, 2004 10:13:42 GMT -5
And secondly, God makes a distinction between the righteous and the unrighteous - the unrighteous go to Hell and the righteous return to Him. [/color] Where can I read of this because it isn't biblical. The spirit of all returns to God at death. It isn't Biblical to you because of what you have been taught. The spirits of the saved return to God, not the spirits of the wicked, otherwise Hell is irrelevant. The bible says no such thing. As I said, you are confused about what the spirit of God is and what the holy Spirit is.
If I had been a young Christian, I might have believed this ignorant statement of yours, but I don't.
It's hard to resist making remarks that are derogatory because you've called the scriptures "ignorant" after I spoke of their words.
I didn't say that the scriptures are ignorant. I said that your were ignorant when it came to properly understanding what the scriptures say. You have demonstrated no logical understanding of what is written. The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a person, the third member of the Holy Trinity.
Ecc.3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. [/color] (Note: the spirit of God is in all living things. As I stated, you're confused about what the spirit/breath is. There is no distinction between the wicked and the righteous. ALL spirits return to God at death.) Wrong! All spirits come directly from God, but not all of them return to God.20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? And it's interesting that the soul/spirit of Man doesn't turn to dust. A person's spirit includes their soul. The angels are spirits and have their own souls/personalities.Ecc. 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. The dead have their memories of their past lives. Those who go to be with God have a new life and the old has pkmtyolped away.Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. This applies to Christians, but not non-ChristiansAndy.
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Post by genesda on Jun 21, 2004 10:15:55 GMT -5
This, of course is where people disagree: what to take literally and what to take symbolicly. You have proven nothing except that you do no better than the Catholics or anyone else in your selectivity. No, there is a method by which the symbolic can be discerned from the literal. The little secret is in letting the O.T. give the light that is needed for understanding the N.t. It's a matter of understanding, not selectivity. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Jun 21, 2004 10:38:50 GMT -5
And secondly, God makes a distinction between the righteous and the unrighteous - the unrighteous go to Hell and the righteous return to Him. [/color] Where can I read of this because it isn't biblical. The spirit of all returns to God at death. It isn't Biblical to you because of what you have been taught. The spirits of the saved return to God, not the spirits of the wicked, otherwise Hell is irrelevant. The bible says no such thing. As I said, you are confused about what the spirit of God is and what the holy Spirit is.
If I had been a young Christian, I might have believed this ignorant statement of yours, but I don't.
It's hard to resist making remarks that are derogatory because you've called the scriptures "ignorant" after I spoke of their words.
I didn't say that the scriptures are ignorant. I said that your were ignorant when it came to properly understanding what the scriptures say. You have demonstrated no logical understanding of what is written. The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a person, the third member of the Holy Trinity. Really? You are writing nothing different from what I've heard all of my life before I learned the truth. You don't know the difference between the holy spirit and the spirit of life which sustains life. I've posted the scriptures which proves what I write. When are you going to show the scriptures that a man has a separate soul/body? [/color] Ecc.3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. [/color] (Note: the spirit of God is in all living things. As I stated, you're confused about what the spirit/breath is. There is no distinction between the wicked and the righteous. ALL spirits return to God at death.) Wrong! All spirits come directly from God, but not all of them return to God.The bible doesn't say what you claim. I may be on a wrong course here. What is your rule of faith? Is it the bible or whatever your pastor tells you? [/color] 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? And it's interesting that the soul/spirit of Man doesn't turn to dust. The spirit returns to God AS THE VERSE SAYS, but nothing is mentioned of a 'soul". Those are your words, not the bible's.
A person's spirit includes their soul. The angels are spirits and have their own souls/personalities.Ecc. 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. The dead have their memories of their past lives. Those who go to be with God have a new life and the old has pkmtyolped away. Yes, but the verse doesn't say "past lives". That is YOUR unbiblical conclusion. They no longer have anything to do with anything that goes on under the sun. [/color] Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. This applies to Christians, but not non-ChristiansAndy. Andy, it's funny that you call what I write unbiblical when the scriptures say what I claim, then you try to change what they say with your own ideas added. Ecc 12:7 is a good example of this. YOU are making the distinction of which "spirit" returns to God, when the bible makes no such distinction. Again, you don't understand what the spirit/breath of life is. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Jun 21, 2004 10:45:41 GMT -5
Where in the Bible is the pkmtyolpage mentioned as being a parable? I haven't come across it. You've also taken verses by Paul and applied understandings of those verses while completely ignoring other teachings that would contradict your understanding.
And those teachings are.....
I'm glad you agree that the Greek (read Satanic) influence had taken some hold, but pagan teachings can never explain God truthfully.
And you can? That's what I've been doing, but you won't let go of the pagan traditions Satan would never gain by giving the truth about God but he would benefit by diluting that truth with his own falsehoods. Of course. And there are people like you who are never wrong. Am I right? Andy. Andy, why don't you show where I've been wrong? I'm really interested in reading where man was "given" a soul or where the bible explains that man has a separate soul/body and that a soul lives apart from the body after death. You could really help by posting the BIBLICAL teachings on this. Leave your words and traditions out of the answers please. So far, all you've done is denied what I post while offering your own ideas and cheer on others who thought they had correct answers.
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