Scaring the demons away...true or false?

[I2AM4GOD]

genesda said:

I2AM4GOD said:

genesda said:

Pietro said:

but you read so selectively.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

How would it be possible for anyone to kill the body but not the soul if , as you say, the soul is simply some mixture of the body and God's spirit?

The conclusion you've reached here is the result of selective reading, not what I wrote.
Jesus was speaking to those who had accepted the false notion of a separate body/soul.

And where does it say that in Matthew?

Where is the actual teaching of a soul that goes to heaven at death as the body lies in the grave?

Without a spirit of your own, you can't have a soul. You said so yourself when you said that we are living souls consisting of body and spirit.

If you can show me that TEACHING, I'll change what I believe to be true.

The bodies that we presently have are only mortal. Our souls live on after death, otherwise resurrection would not happen.

Pure baloney! That has nothing at all to do with a future ressurrection. You're mixing pagan lies with scripture.

Believe what you like. But you're not making any more sense to anyone.

At the same time, show me where man is GIVEN a soul.
I've only read where man IS a living soul.

Pietro has given you a few scriptures which confirm the point that the soul of a man is not his physical body.

No he hasn't. There hasn't been one quote showing a separate soul and body posted because there isn't any. Pagan lies will never confirm scripture and that's what you're trying to do.

Now look who's saying that the Holy Scriptures are untrue, when it's convenient for him to ignore them. Gene, I thought you accepted the Bible as being 100% true - I'm disappointed in you!

Can a surgeon physically operate on a man's mind, his will, his emotions? Nope. However, he can operate on his brain. But his brain is not his soul/personality.

[/color]

The brain is exactly where everything that a man is comes from. Thoughts, character, and deeds originate in the brain. [/color]

The brain is where information is stored. It also processes information coming from the five physical senses. Your brain doesn't go to Heaven when you die - you leave it behind. Your body, which includes your brain, turns to dust, but your soul/spirit does not. Your spiritual self is eternal.

Then please show where this teaching of a separate soul DIDN'T originate with the pagan Greeks.

Gene, it is mentioned in the Bible and isn't disputed anywhere in the scriptures.
Show it!! What ch and vs tells us that we have a separate soul/body? [/color]

I've posted many times from the New Catholic encylopedia where this claim coming from the pagan Greeks is made.

Many of the so-called Pagan/Greeks as you like to call them are in fact "born-again" committed Christians.

Not when these teachings originated! Yes, Greeks were converted, but the idea of a separate soul/body didn't come from converted Christians. They originated with the pagans!

Why don't you ask some Greek Christians what they think?

The are renowned for their philosophical perspective on things. And if it wasn't for them, the concept of democracy wouldn't exist.

I didn't say everything that came from the Greeks was bad, only the false teachings of a separate body/soul.

Only "false" according to what you've been taught.

Are you trying to justify the false by talking about some good that came from them?

I'm not into justifying falsehoods, unlike you.

It is proven history that the idea came from the pagans/Satanic forces. Why do you try to justify these false teachings? [/color]

Because they're not false. The Greeks know a thing or two.....

You hate the Roman Catholic Church, so why do you have a copy of their "New Catholic Encyclopedia"?[/color]
I don't hate Rc people at all. I expose false teachings whenever I can. That's not hatred. [/color]

You could have fooled me, but you haven't.

I refuse to believe fairy tales and like to stick to biblical TEACHINGS, not a scripture here or there that is INTERPRETED.

Correction: You like to stick to the unbiblical teachings of the SDA. The Bible is not made up of fairy tales.[/b]

Andy.
Then , why do you insist on repeating them?
You've offered nothing that disproves what I said about the separate body/soul coming from the pagan Greeks, but you insist on hanging onto that lie. You aren't quoting the scriptures, you're using traditional teachings and claiming they're biblical.
It isn't me that sticks to unbiblical teachings.
All you've offered is YOUR opinion that what I post is unbiblical, while you show nothing. [/color]
[/quote]

If you didn't have a soul, you wouldn't have a personality. Your body is flesh, blood and bone. Your soul which is your mind, will and emotions (personality), is not. After death, your body perishes, but your soul/spirit continues to exist and either goes to Heaven, or to Hell. It's simple, really.

Andy.

[genesda]

I2AM4GOD said:

If you didn't have a soul, you wouldn't have a personality. Your body is flesh, blood and bone. Your soul which is your mind, will and emotions (personality), is not. After death, your body perishes, but your soul/spirit continues to exist and either goes to Heaven, or to Hell. It's simple, really.

Andy.

Again Andy, you're offering your opinion. I asked you for the biblical proof of your claim.
Without a brain, you'd have nothing. Your brain is what makes you what you are. That is a part the body.

Hell is simply the grave. It is a translated word meaning "the realm of the dead".

You offer nothing that proves your contenions but your opinions,. yet you reject the biblical explanations I offer.

[I2AM4GOD]

genesda said:

I2AM4GOD said:

I've thought about that. But it doesn't change the fact that there is an eternal punishment awaiting the ungodly.
Yes Andy, the punishMENT will be eternal, not the punishING. tHE FIRE WILL GO OUT AFTER IT'S DONE IT'S WORK and Jesus will recreate this Earth for the saved.

[/color]

How do you know? Have you had a sneak preview? ;D

The bible says Satan will be burned to ashes and will be no more. Those ashes will be under the feet of man.

That's interesting. Could you please give me the scriptural pkmtyolpage which says that?
[/color]
Eze.28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

How do you reconcile those biblical facts if there is to be an eternal fire?

The eternal fire is mentioned in the Book of Revelation. The lake of fire is the eternal punishment of the wicked. I believe that the Sun may go supernova in a thousand years from now and that this planet will be burned up as a result. But what if this sun never dies? And could it be that lake of fire? - who knows, except God?
Now you're injecting ideas into this that have absolutely no biblical basis at all. The answers are in the bible, so why use your own ideas? [/color]

Makes the debate more interesting. And why shouldn't I express my own ideas? Yes, the one about the sun going supernova is not mentioned in the Bible, but that doesn't make it unbiblical, rather it makes it non-biblical. I could be right, I could be wrong.

By the way, the bible says that Sodom burned with an unquenchable fire. If that fire was really unquenchable, it would still be burning. Is Sodom still burning?

Not in the physical sense, as it no longer exists. But there may be a spiritual Sodom and Gomorrah - only God knows.
Now you're injecting more unbiblical ideas into the biblical story to justify your preconcieved notions about the word unquenchable. Sodom wasn't changed into another dimension where it's still burning and we can't see it. Why can't you just accept that the translators injected their ideas into the translations too?

And now we're back to not trusting the Bible translators. I'm inclined to place more trust in them than in you. And Sodom and Gomorrah were the closest thing to Hell on Earth.

There was no transformation of the cities on the plain that were destroyed. The fire was unquenchable UNTIL the work of the fire was complete in the destruction of the cities, and it went out!
The lake of fire will also go out when it's job is finished.
I find that comforting.
I worship a God that hands out justice. Some look to a God that would take pleasure in making sinners suffer thousands and thousands of milliniums for the sins of a few years here on Earth.

Either way, you don't know.

That wouldn't be a loving God, but a tyrant that Satan wants people think He is. Satan gets people to hate God with his lies about "eternal suffer-ING, rather than God destroying the wicked out of existance so sin will no longer exist in the universe.
The bible plainly states that only those " in Christ" will have eternal life.

That is, eternally abundant life.

The wicked are not in Christ.

I agree.

They have no eternal existance. There is no immortal soul. That is a Satanic lie! [/color]

According to what you've been taught.

Andy.

[Pietro]

genesda said:

Pietro said:

This, of course is where people disagree: what to take literally and what to take symbolicly. You have proven nothing except that you do no better than the Catholics or anyone else in your selectivity.

No, there is a method by which the symbolic can be discerned from the literal.
The little secret is in letting the O.T. give the light that is needed for understanding the N.t.
It's a matter of understanding, not selectivity.

[/color][/quote]

Both Testaments are helpful in understanding each other. Still, there is room for differences of interpretation especailly when it comes to discerning literal from symbolic.

[genesda]

I2AM4GOD said:

genesda said:

I2AM4GOD said:

I've thought about that. But it doesn't change the fact that there is an eternal punishment awaiting the ungodly.
Yes Andy, the punishMENT will be eternal, not the punishING. tHE FIRE WILL GO OUT AFTER IT'S DONE IT'S WORK and Jesus will recreate this Earth for the saved.

[/color]

How do you know? Have you had a sneak preview? ;D
No, I'm using the bible as my guide. You haven't really studied it have you? [/color]

The bible says Satan will be burned to ashes and will be no more. Those ashes will be under the feet of man.

That's interesting. Could you please give me the scriptural pkmtyolpage which says that?

Eze.28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

How do you reconcile those biblical facts if there is to be an eternal fire?

The eternal fire is mentioned in the Book of Revelation. The lake of fire is the eternal punishment of the wicked. I believe that the Sun may go supernova in a thousand years from now and that this planet will be burned up as a result. But what if this sun never dies? And could it be that lake of fire? - who knows, except God?
Now you're injecting ideas into this that have absolutely no biblical basis at all. The answers are in the bible, so why use your own ideas? [/color]

Makes the debate more interesting.
When talking about scripture, it's a good idea to stick to them.

And why shouldn't I express my own ideas? Yes, the one about the sun going supernova is not mentioned in the Bible, but that doesn't make it unbiblical, rather it makes it non-biblical. I could be right, I could be wrong.

You're wrong because the end is foretold to us in the bible. Jesus will create the lake of fire ON THE EARTH and the wicked will be consumed. That is what the bible says.
If you read the gospels, you will always find Jesus talking about the destruction of the wicked, not the tormenting of them eternally.
No one who is not in Jesus will have eternal life. You seem to want to give everyone eternal life with the pagan immortal soul that you keep professing.
Is the bible wrong when it says that eternal life is only possible in Christ?
In Eze 18:4 we are told that souls DIE!! This is restated in vs. 20.
So now, where is this immortality? Will you try to make dying really living someplace else?
In death, there is no life. Death is the absence of life.
Stones aren't referred to as "dead". They are said to be "lifeless" because they never had life to begin with.
Why is it so hard for you to let go of the fairy tales?

By the way, the bible says that Sodom burned with an unquenchable fire. If that fire was really unquenchable, it would still be burning. Is Sodom still burning? [/color]

Not in the physical sense, as it no longer exists. But there may be a spiritual Sodom and Gomorrah - only God knows.
Now you're injecting more unbiblical ideas into the biblical story to justify your preconcieved notions about the word unquenchable. Sodom wasn't changed into another dimension where it's still burning and we can't see it. Why can't you just accept that the translators injected their ideas into the translations too?[/color]

And now we're back to not trusting the Bible translators. I'm inclined to place more trust in them than in you.
O.K., but there are proven instances of them getting it wrong in a couple of places that I know of.

And Sodom and Gomorrah were the closest thing to Hell on Earth.
You base this statement on what?

There was no transformation of the cities on the plain that were destroyed to another dimension. The fire was unquenchable UNTIL the work of the fire was complete in the destruction of the cities, and it went out!
The lake of fire will also go out when it's job is finished.
I find that comforting.
I worship a God that hands out justice. Some look to a God that would take pleasure in making sinners suffer thousands and thousands of milliniums for the sins of a few years here on Earth.

Either way, you don't know.
Ah!, but I do. The wicked will be destroyed completely and be as though they had never been, just like satan. Sin will be eradicated from the universe forever (without end).

That wouldn't be a loving God, but a tyrant that Satan wants people think He is. Satan gets people to hate God with his lies about "eternal suffer-ING, rather than God destroying the wicked out of existance so sin will no longer exist in the universe.
The bible plainly states that only those " in Christ" will have eternal life.[/color]

That is, eternally abundant life.
NO!! You're adding to the scriptures again!! Without Jesus there IS NO LIFE AT ALL!! [/color]

The wicked are not in Christ.

I agree.

They have no eternal existance. There is no immortal soul. That is a Satanic lie! [/b][/color]

According to what you've been taught.
I'll ask again. Show me where the bible says a soul has a separate existance from the body?

Andy, you believe a distorted version of the gospel.
You still offer nothing but your opinions. [/color]

[Pietro]

genesda said:

No, I'm using the bible as my guide. You haven't really studied it have you?

[/color][/quote]

OK, time out.

This is the sort of comment we all need to avoid. It shows arrogance and lack of charity. As if anyone who "really studied" scripture would have to agree with you.

[genesda]

Pietro said:

OK, time out.

This is the sort of comment we all need to avoid. It shows arrogance and lack of charity. As if anyone who "really studied" scripture would have to agree with you.

Not at all. I just am tired of people spouting their traditions which can't be proven from bible study.
I do understand where you're coming from as a Rc, but those who aren't Rc and claim the bible and the bible alone as their rule of faith should be able to prove their points from scripture.

If you wish to accept tradition as being equal with scripture, I know that's what you're taught, but nonRc's don't have that option.

You know that the idea of an immortal soul comes from the Greeks, Plaro and Aristotle. If you wish to believe those pagans and their ideas, so be it, but they were wrong.
Your N.C.E. states that the idea of a soul that survives the body at death can't be learned from the bible. The obvious question then is where? From the pagan Greeks.
Now Andy wants to profess that this false notion is scriptural. Proper biblical study would show that it doesn't, just as the Rcc does indicate.

By the way. I didn't notice any comment from you when I was called ignorant because I said what I write is consistant with biblical teachings. Why not?

[/color]

[Pietro]

genesda said:

If you wish to believe those pagans and their ideas, so be it, but they were wrong.

[/b][/color][/quote]


You know those pagans made a pretty huge contribution to the store of human knowledge. Also Malchezadek was technically a pagan since he was not related to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob. And yet he was a priest of God. It doesn't seem that God is as exclusive with revelation as you would like to believe.

[keikikoka]

Jesus will create the lake of fire ON THE EARTH and the wicked will be consumed. That is what the bible says.

You have never shown where the bible states this. You use verses in revelation which refer to fire from God coming out of heaven to burn the attackers of Gods city. However this never states that hell is on earth. Revleation never mentions the hell-fire being on earth.

Is the bible wrong when it says that eternal life is only possible in Christ?

Is the bible wrong when it says satan is thrown into the lake of fire which will torment him “day and night, forever and ever” Is the bible wrong when it says the wicked will also be thrown into this fire?

In Eze 18:4 we are told that souls DIE!! This is restated in vs. 20.

The word for soul, here, is nephesh. It just means living thing. Ezekial 18:4 says that all living things that sin will die.

Why can't you just accept that the translators injected their ideas into the translations too?

When did the translators do this?

O.K., but there are proven instances of them getting it wrong in a couple of places that I know of.

This is one of the more funny things you have said. You can’t stand to lose an argument, so even when the bible says you are wrong you will turn around and blame the translators.

[I2AM4GOD]

link=board=narrowdebate&thread=1080660457&start=69#4 date=1087903155]

genesda said:

[quote author=I2AM4GOD link=board=narrowdebate&thread=1080660457&start=62#4 date=1087834404

I've thought about that. But it doesn't change the fact that there is an eternal punishment awaiting the ungodly.
Yes Andy, the punishMENT will be eternal, not the punishING. tHE FIRE WILL GO OUT AFTER IT'S DONE IT'S WORK and Jesus will recreate this Earth for the saved.

[/color]

How do you know? Have you had a sneak preview? ;D
No, I'm using the bible as my guide. You haven't really studied it have you? [/color]

Okay, confession time for me. No, I'm not into deeply studying the Bible. I'm not a studious kind of guy. But when I read something, I think carefully about what it is saying and I and my Christian friends often get together and discuss the scriptures. I often get more out of having fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ than I do with locking myself in my room getting as extreme as possible about what the Bible says.

The bible says Satan will be burned to ashes and will be no more. Those ashes will be under the feet of man.

That's interesting. Could you please give me the scriptural pkmtyolpage which says that?

Eze.28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Thank you, Gene.

How do you reconcile those biblical facts if there is to be an eternal fire?

The eternal fire is mentioned in the Book of Revelation. The lake of fire is the eternal punishment of the wicked. I believe that the Sun may go supernova in a thousand years from now and that this planet will be burned up as a result. But what if this sun never dies? And could it be that lake of fire? - who knows, except God?
Now you're injecting ideas into this that have absolutely no biblical basis at all. The answers are in the bible, so why use your own ideas? [/color]

Makes the debate more interesting.
When talking about scripture, it's a good idea to stick to them.

And why shouldn't I express my own ideas? Yes, the one about the sun going supernova is not mentioned in the Bible, but that doesn't make it unbiblical, rather it makes it non-biblical. I could be right, I could be wrong.

You're wrong because the end is foretold to us in the bible. Jesus will create the lake of fire ON THE EARTH and the wicked will be consumed. That is what the bible says.

Can you please give the scriptural pkmtyolpage which says this?

If you read the gospels, you will always find Jesus talking about the destruction of the wicked, not the tormenting of them eternally.

Is that so? The word "eternal" means "forever".

No one who is not in Jesus will have eternal life. You seem to want to give everyone eternal life with the pagan immortal soul that you keep professing.

You're wrong Gene. Do you want anyone to go to Hell? I don't.

Is the bible wrong when it says that eternal life is only possible in Christ?

No. And neither is the Bible is wrong when it says that Hell is an eternal place of torment.

In Eze 18:4 we are told that souls DIE!! This is restated in vs. 20.

Yes, human beings physically die. But there are those who won't die when Jesus Christ returns to this World to receive them. How do you explain that, Gene?

So now, where is this immortality? Will you try to make dying really living someplace else?

Christ said that men live only once and are then judged.

In death, there is no life. Death is the absence of life.

Physical death is the absence of physical life. The second death, which is spiritual, is eternal separation from God. The deceased continues to exist in Hell or the lake of fire.

Stones aren't referred to as "dead". They are said to be "lifeless" because they never had life to begin with.
Why is it so hard for you to let go of the fairy tales?

Really, Gene. I would never have known if you hadn't told me.

By the way, the bible says that Sodom burned with an unquenchable fire. If that fire was really unquenchable, it would still be burning. Is Sodom still burning? [/color]

Not in the physical sense, as it no longer exists. But there may be a spiritual Sodom and Gomorrah - only God knows.
Now you're injecting more unbiblical ideas into the biblical story to justify your preconcieved notions about the word unquenchable. Sodom wasn't changed into another dimension where it's still burning and we can't see it. Why can't you just accept that the translators injected their ideas into the translations too?[/color]

And now we're back to not trusting the Bible translators. I'm inclined to place more trust in them than in you.
O.K., but there are proven instances of them getting it wrong in a couple of places that I know of.

Wow! You need to correct them, Gene, and fast! Souls are depending on you! ;D

And Sodom and Gomorrah were the closest thing to Hell on Earth.
You base this statement on what?

Read Genesis ch.18, vv.16-33 and chapter19. The outcry against Sodom and Gommorah was so great that the Lord actually went down to have a look. He decided that the people were so wicked that He rained burning sulphur on them from the heavens.

There was no transformation of the cities on the plain that were destroyed to another dimension. The fire was unquenchable UNTIL the work of the fire was complete in the destruction of the cities, and it went out!
The lake of fire will also go out when it's job is finished.
I find that comforting.

There was no comfort for the people who were consumed by that burning sulphur. Afterwards, they went to Hell.

I worship a God that hands out justice. Some look to a God that would take pleasure in making sinners suffer thousands and thousands of milliniums for the sins of a few years here on Earth.

Either way, you don't know.
Ah!, but I do. The wicked will be destroyed completely and be as though they had never been, just like satan. Sin will be eradicated from the universe forever (without end).

That wouldn't be a loving God, but a tyrant that Satan wants people think He is.

I see. So God should just turn a blind eye to all the evil that's going on in the World? Adolf Hitler deserves mercy, does he? In his name, terrible acts of wickedness were committed against innocent people, many of whom were put to death in the gas chambers. But, hey, that doesn't justify eternal punishment. Adolf wasn't really such a bad guy. He was just misunderstood. Yeah, right.

Satan gets people to hate God with his lies about "eternal suffer-ING, rather than God destroying the wicked out of existance so sin will no longer exist in the universe.

Eternal suffering is biblical. But Man always wants to have the easy way out, to not be held accountable for his sins.

The bible plainly states that only those " in Christ" will have eternal life.[/color]

That is, eternally abundant life.
NO!! You're adding to the scriptures again!! Without Jesus there IS NO LIFE AT ALL!! [/color]

I disagree with you. We agree to disagree.

Andy, you believe a distorted version of the gospel.
You still offer nothing but your opinions. [/b][/color]

There is only one Gospel, of which there are four different versions. I believe in the Gospels the same as you. Are the Gospels distortions of the Truth, as revealed through Jesus Christ? Nope.

Andy.

[genesda]

[quote author=I2AM4GOD
I've thought about that. But it doesn't change the fact that there is an eternal punishment awaiting the ungodly.
Yes Andy, the punishMENT will be eternal, not the punishING. tHE FIRE WILL GO OUT AFTER IT'S DONE IT'S WORK and Jesus will recreate this Earth for the saved. [/color]

How do you know? Have you had a sneak preview? ;D
No, I'm using the bible as my guide. You haven't really studied it have you? [/color]

Okay, confession time for me. No, I'm not into deeply studying the Bible. I'm not a studious kind of guy. But when I read something, I think carefully about what it is saying and I and my Christian friends often get together and discuss the scriptures. I often get more out of having fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ than I do with locking myself in my room getting as extreme as possible about what the Bible says.
Discussing ideas with others who believe the same things as you leads to confirmation of errors. [/color]

The bible says Satan will be burned to ashes and will be no more. Those ashes will be under the feet of man.

That's interesting. Could you please give me the scriptural pkmtyolpage which says that?

Eze.28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Thank you, Gene.

How do you reconcile those biblical facts if there is to be an eternal fire?

The eternal fire is mentioned in the Book of Revelation. The lake of fire is the eternal punishment of the wicked. I believe that the Sun may go supernova in a thousand years from now and that this planet will be burned up as a result. But what if this sun never dies? And could it be that lake of fire? - who knows, except God?
Now you're injecting ideas into this that have absolutely no biblical basis at all. The answers are in the bible, so why use your own ideas? [/color]

Makes the debate more interesting.
When talking about scripture, it's a good idea to stick to them.

And why shouldn't I express my own ideas?
Even when they are contrary to scripture? [/color]
Yes, the one about the sun going supernova is not mentioned in the Bible, but that doesn't make it unbiblical, rather it makes it non-biblical. I could be right, I could be wrong.

You're wrong because the end is foretold to us in the bible. Jesus will create the lake of fire ON THE EARTH and the wicked will be consumed. That is what the bible says.

Can you please give the scriptural pkmtyolpage which says this?
Rev.20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compkmtyolped the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[genesda]

[quote author=I2AM4GOD


Is that so? The word "eternal" means "forever".

No one who is not in Jesus will have eternal life. You seem to want to give everyone eternal life with the pagan immortal soul that you keep professing.

You're wrong Gene. Do you want anyone to go to Hell? I don't.

Is the bible wrong when it says that eternal life is only possible in Christ?

No. And neither is the Bible is wrong when it says that Hell is an eternal place of torment.
Why don't you show where the bible says this? [/color]

In Eze 18:4 we are told that souls DIE!! This is restated in vs. 20.

Yes, human beings physically die. But there are those who won't die when Jesus Christ returns to this World to receive them. How do you explain that, Gene?
The bible says SOULS DIE!
Eternal life is the reward of the saved and they don't get that reward until Jesus returns. Both Peter and Paul stae this very plainly. [/color]

So now, where is this immortality? Will you try to make dying really living someplace else?

Christ said that men live only once and are then judged.
Right. There is no indication that people are judged at the moment of death. The angels that were ejected with Satan haven't been judged yet, so why should man be different? Besides, no one will be given their final sentence until the judgment has been completed.
You want me to believe Cain was suffereing for about 6000 years longer than Hitler. That's just not so. They will both receive their sentence and it will be carried out at the same time. [/color]

In death, there is no life. Death is the absence of life.

Physical death is the absence of physical life. The second death, which is spiritual, is eternal separation from God. The deceased continues to exist in Hell or the lake of fire.
Just as I thought. Being dead means being alive someplace else.
Don't you understand that dead means NO LIFE at all? [/color]

Stones aren't referred to as "dead". They are said to be "lifeless" because they never had life to begin with.
Why is it so hard for you to let go of the fairy tales?

Really, Gene. I would never have known if you hadn't told me.
I believe you. [/color]

By the way, the bible says that Sodom burned with an unquenchable fire. If that fire was really unquenchable, it would still be burning. Is Sodom still burning? [/b][/color]

Not in the physical sense, as it no longer exists. But there may be a spiritual Sodom and Gomorrah - only God knows.
Now you're injecting more unbiblical ideas into the biblical story to justify your preconcieved notions about the word unquenchable. Sodom wasn't changed into another dimension where it's still burning and we can't see it. Why can't you just accept that the translators injected their ideas into the translations too?[/color]

And now we're back to not trusting the Bible translators. I'm inclined to place more trust in them than in you.
O.K., but there are proven instances of them getting it wrong in a couple of places that I know of.

Wow! You need to correct them, Gene, and fast! Souls are depending on you! ;D
Not me, but a clear understanding of the scriptures which you prove you lack.

And Sodom and Gomorrah were the closest thing to Hell on Earth.
You base this statement on what?

Read Genesis ch.18, vv.16-33 and chapter19. The outcry against Sodom and Gommorah was so great that the Lord actually went down to have a look. He decided that the people were so wicked that He rained burning sulphur on them from the heavens.

There was no transformation of the cities on the plain that were destroyed to another dimension. The fire was unquenchable UNTIL the work of the fire was complete in the destruction of the cities, and it went out!
The lake of fire will also go out when it's job is finished.
I find that comforting.

There was no comfort for the people who were consumed by that burning sulphur. Afterwards, they went to Hell.
Again, hell is simply the grave.

I worship a God that hands out justice. Some look to a God that would take pleasure in making sinners suffer thousands and thousands of milliniums for the sins of a few years here on Earth.[/color]

Either way, you don't know.
Ah!, but I do. The wicked will be destroyed completely and be as though they had never been, just like satan. Sin will be eradicated from the universe forever (without end).

That wouldn't be a loving God, but a tyrant that Satan wants people think He is.

I see. So God should just turn a blind eye to all the evil that's going on in the World? Adolf Hitler deserves mercy, does he? In his name, terrible acts of wickedness were committed against innocent people, many of whom were put to death in the gas chambers. But, hey, that doesn't justify eternal punishment. Adolf wasn't really such a bad guy. He was just misunderstood. Yeah, right.
Andy, you're getting irrational and making foolish statements.
Hitler will receive what God deems necessary as a punishment and it will be eternal destruction. He will be destroyed for all eternity and there will nbe no resurrection for him to eternal life.

Satan gets people to hate God with his lies about "eternal suffer-ING, rather than God destroying the wicked out of existance so sin will no longer exist in the universe.

Eternal suffering is biblical.
NO IT ISN'T!!
But Man always wants to have the easy way out, to not be held accountable for his sins.[/color]
You may be right, but those who don't repent will pay for their sins. I just don't believe a just God would make someone suffer for all eternity for the sins of a few short years here.
The bible says the wicked will be destroyed. That means complete. Finished. [/color]

The bible plainly states that only those " in Christ" will have eternal life.[/b][/color]

That is, eternally abundant life.
NO!! You're adding to the scriptures again!! Without Jesus there IS NO LIFE AT ALL!! [/color]

I disagree with you. We agree to disagree.
We disagree because you insist on hanging onto pagan ideas. [/color]

Andy, you believe a distorted version of the gospel.
You still offer nothing but your opinions. [/b][/color]

There is only one Gospel, of which there are four different versions. I believe in the Gospels the same as you. Are the Gospels distortions of the Truth, as revealed through Jesus Christ? Nope.

Andy.

[I2AM4GOD]

genesda said:

[quote author=I2AM4GOD
I've thought about that. But it doesn't change the fact that there is an eternal punishment awaiting the ungodly.
Yes Andy, the punishMENT will be eternal, not the punishING. tHE FIRE WILL GO OUT AFTER IT'S DONE IT'S WORK and Jesus will recreate this Earth for the saved.

[/color]

How do you know? Have you had a sneak preview? ;D
No, I'm using the bible as my guide. You haven't really studied it have you? [/color]

Okay, confession time for me. No, I'm not into deeply studying the Bible. I'm not a studious kind of guy. But when I read something, I think carefully about what it is saying and I and my Christian friends often get together and discuss the scriptures. I often get more out of having fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ than I do with locking myself in my room getting as extreme as possible about what the Bible says.
Discussing ideas with others who believe the same things as you leads to confirmation of errors. [/color]

Correction: We don't agree on all the scriptures, only some, and my friends are as knowledgeable about them as you claim to be, if not more so. And one of them is very studious in the scriptures. He is sold out for the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact they both are. The other one says that your belief that the soul ceases to exist after death is pure baloney. It really doesn't make any sense. She doesn't say that because I say that, or vice versa. So you don't know what you are talking about.

How do you reconcile those biblical facts if there is to be an eternal fire?

You're wrong because the end is foretold to us in the bible. Jesus will create the lake of fire ON THE EARTH and the wicked will be consumed. That is what the bible says.

Can you please give the scriptural pkmtyolpage which says this?
Rev.20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compkmtyolped the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I stand corrected. But it is still the case that the eternal punishment is eternal. And what is spirit can never turn to dust, as you seem to suggest when you erroneously claim that once a person has physically died their soul no longer exists.
That isn't a biblical claim. Gene, you can be as extreme as you like when it comes to the Bible, but it doesn't mean that you are any more right than the rest of us. ;D

Andy.

P.S: And now I'm withdrawing from this debate for a while, as I sense that another, epic, Genesda v everybody else theological argument is about to begin.

[I2AM4GOD]

link=board=narrowdebate&thread=1080660457&start=73#4 date=1087911897]

genesda said:

[quote author=I2AM4GOD

No. And neither is the Bible wrong when it says that Hell is an eternal place of torment.
Why don't you show where the bible says this?

[/color]

You have already been shown scripture regarding this by Keikikoka. So you hardly need to ask me.

In Eze 18:4 we are told that souls DIE!! This is restated in vs. 20.

Yes, human beings physically die. But there are those who won't die when Jesus Christ returns to this World to receive them. How do you explain that, Gene?
The bible says SOULS DIE!
Eternal life is the reward of the saved and they don't get that reward until Jesus returns. Both Peter and Paul stae this very plainly. [/color]

Eternal life begins the moment a person receives salvation. They may die physically, but they will live on in the Lord's presence.

So now, where is this immortality? Will you try to make dying really living someplace else?

Christ said that men live only once and are then judged.
Right. There is no indication that people are judged at the moment of death. The angels that were ejected with Satan haven't been judged yet, so why should man be different? Besides, no one will be given their final sentence until the judgment has been completed.
You want me to believe Cain was suffereing for about 6000 years longer than Hitler. That's just not so.

Really? And you've seen Cain have you? Tell me, Gene, is he with God, or is he in Hades?

They will both receive their sentence and it will be carried out at the same time. [/color]

I have no problem with that statement.

In death, there is no life. Death is the absence of life.

Physical death is the absence of physical life. The second death, which is spiritual, is eternal separation from God. The deceased continues to exist in Hell or the lake of fire.
Just as I thought. Being dead means being alive someplace else.

I have just explained it to you. So I won't repeat myself. I made that mistake with Traffic Demon.

Don't you understand that dead means NO LIFE at all? [/color]

Stones aren't referred to as "dead". They are said to be "lifeless" because they never had life to begin with.
Why is it so hard for you to let go of the fairy tales?

Really, Gene. I would never have known if you hadn't told me.
I believe you. [/color]

By the way, that was sarcasm. ;D

By the way, the bible says that Sodom burned with an unquenchable fire. If that fire was really unquenchable, it would still be burning. Is Sodom still burning? [/b][/color]

Not in the physical sense, as it no longer exists. But there may be a spiritual Sodom and Gomorrah - only God knows.
Now you're injecting more unbiblical ideas into the biblical story to justify your preconcieved notions about the word unquenchable. Sodom wasn't changed into another dimension where it's still burning and we can't see it. Why can't you just accept that the translators injected their ideas into the translations too?[/color]

And now we're back to not trusting the Bible translators. I'm inclined to place more trust in them than in you.
O.K., but there are proven instances of them getting it wrong in a couple of places that I know of.

Wow! You need to correct them, Gene, and fast! Souls are depending on you! ;D
Not me, but a clear understanding of the scriptures which you prove you lack.

And you have been proving to me that the same applies to you. Even the Pagans believe that once you die you cease to exist.

And Sodom and Gomorrah were the closest thing to Hell on Earth.
You base this statement on what?

Read Genesis ch.18, vv.16-33 and chapter 19. The outcry against Sodom and Gommorah was so great that the Lord actually went down to take a look. He decided that the people were so wicked that He rained burning sulphur on them from the heavens.

There was no transformation of the cities on the plain that were destroyed to another dimension. The fire was unquenchable UNTIL the work of the fire was complete in the destruction of the cities, and it went out!
The lake of fire will also go out when it's job is finished.
I find that comforting.

There was no comfort for the people who were consumed by that burning sulphur. Afterwards, they went to Hell.
Again, hell is simply the grave.

Hell is also eternal separation from God, and Hell is what the lake of fire will be.

I worship a God that hands out justice. Some look to a God that would take pleasure in making sinners suffer thousands and thousands of milliniums for the sins of a few years here on Earth.[/color]

Either way, you don't know.
Ah!, but I do. The wicked will be destroyed completely and be as though they had never been, just like satan. Sin will be eradicated from the universe forever (without end).

What is spirit is eternal and "goes back to God". You said so yourself. So, in the light of that, and your very rigid understanding of the scriptures, where does that leave Satan? He is a spirit. Does he go back to God or get thrown into the lake of fire?

That wouldn't be a loving God, but a tyrant that Satan wants people think He is.

I see. So God should just turn a blind eye to all the evil that's going on in the World? Adolf Hitler deserves mercy, does he? In his name, terrible acts of wickedness were committed against innocent people, many of whom were put to death in the gas chambers. But, hey, that doesn't justify eternal punishment. Adolf wasn't really such a bad guy. He was just misunderstood. Yeah, right.
Andy, you're getting irrational and making foolish statements.

Let's call it 'controlled "I" rationality', designed to increase the pressure on you. ;D

Hitler will receive what God deems necessary as a punishment and it will be eternal destruction. He will be destroyed for all eternity and there will nbe no resurrection for him to eternal life.

Satan gets people to hate God with his lies about "eternal suffer-ING, rather than God destroying the wicked out of existance so sin will no longer exist in the universe.

Eternal suffering is biblical.
NO IT ISN'T!!

YES IT IS!!

But Man always wants to have the easy way out, to not be held accountable for his sins.[/color]

You may be right, but those who don't repent will pay for their sins. I just don't believe a just God would make someone suffer for all eternity for the sins of a few short years here.

But God is Holy and won't tolerate sin forevermore.....

The bible says the wicked will be destroyed. That means complete. Finished. [/color]

And their destruction, or ruin, is eternal.

The bible plainly states that only those " in Christ" will have eternal life.[/b][/color]

That is, eternally abundant life.
NO!! You're adding to the scriptures again!! Without Jesus there IS NO LIFE AT ALL!! [/color]

I disagree with you. We agree to disagree.
We disagree because you insist on hanging onto pagan ideas. [/color]

We disagree because you like to think you are all knowing about everything biblical, and you're not.

Andy, you believe a distorted version of the gospel.
You still offer nothing but your opinions. [/b][/color]

There is only one Gospel, of which there are four different versions. I believe in the Gospels the same as you. Are the Gospels distortions of the Truth, as revealed through Jesus Christ? Nope.

Andy.

[AuntRonda]

It's so nice to have Quick Verse on my Computer.....


Rev 14

9 Then a third angel followed them, shouting, “Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or the hand 10must drink the wine of God’s wrath. It is poured out undiluted into God’s cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment rises forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.

Rev. 20

10 Then the Devil, who betrayed them, was thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.