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Post by genesda on Jun 22, 2004 9:42:23 GMT -5
[quote author=I2AM4GOD I've thought about that. But it doesn't change the fact that there is an eternal punishment awaiting the ungodly. Yes Andy, the punishMENT will be eternal, not the punishING. tHE FIRE WILL GO OUT AFTER IT'S DONE IT'S WORK and Jesus will recreate this Earth for the saved. [/color] How do you know? Have you had a sneak preview? ;D No, I'm using the bible as my guide. You haven't really studied it have you? [/color] Okay, confession time for me. No, I'm not into deeply studying the Bible. I'm not a studious kind of guy. But when I read something, I think carefully about what it is saying and I and my Christian friends often get together and discuss the scriptures. I often get more out of having fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ than I do with locking myself in my room getting as extreme as possible about what the Bible says. Discussing ideas with others who believe the same things as you leads to confirmation of errors. [/color] Correction: We don't agree on all the scriptures, only some, and my friends are as knowledgeable about them as you claim to be, if not more so. And one of them is very studious in the scriptures.Sorry, but if your friend says that man has anything that is naturally immortal, then they don't know what they're talking about and have bought that pagan lie just as you have. [/color] He is sold out for the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact they both are. The other one says that your belief that the soul ceases to exist after death is pure baloney. It really doesn't make any sense. She doesn't say that because I say that, or vice versa. So you don't know what you are talking about.[/color] You are your friends can end this quickly by showing any scripture that says a soul has natural immortality. I've posted the scriptures that says souls die. Eze. 18:4 and 20. [/color] How do you reconcile those biblical facts if there is to be an eternal fire? You're wrong because the end is foretold to us in the bible. Jesus will create the lake of fire ON THE EARTH and the wicked will be consumed. That is what the bible says.
Can you please give the scriptural pkmtyolpage which says this? Rev.20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compkmtyolped the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
I stand corrected. But it is still the case that the eternal punishment is eternal. And what is spirit can never turn to dust, as you seem to suggest when you erroneously claim that once a person has physically died their soul no longer exists.
Andy, Genesis 2:7 tells us what a soul is. If that process is reversed, all you have left is what was there before God's spirit was added. This is so simple to understand if you discard the pagan teachings.Why do you hold onto them?
That isn't a biblical claim. Gene, you can be as extreme as you like when it comes to the Bible, but it doesn't mean that you are any more right than the rest of us. ;D Andy, The bible is clear on what happens to a man at death. It's only when the false pagan ideas are mixed with the scriptures that truth turns into what you profess. [/color] Andy. P.S: And now I'm withdrawing from this debate for a while, as I sense that another, epic, Genesda v everybody else theological argument is about to begin. That's O.K. by me. I'm confident in what I hold on to. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Jun 22, 2004 9:49:55 GMT -5
You know those pagans made a pretty huge contribution to the store of human knowledge. Also Malchezadek was technically a pagan since he was not related to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob. And yet he was a priest of God. It doesn't seem that God is as exclusive with revelation as you would like to believe. Malchezadek was a priest and king as is Christ. He wasn't a pagan but a God fearing man. Not being related to Abraham is not what determines what a pagan is. Teaching false doctrines that are antiGod and those who just don't believe in God are what pagans are. [/color]
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Post by AuntRonda on Jun 22, 2004 9:50:47 GMT -5
[quote author=I2AM4GOD I've thought about that. But it doesn't change the fact that there is an eternal punishment awaiting the ungodly. Yes Andy, the punishMENT will be eternal, not the punishING. tHE FIRE WILL GO OUT AFTER IT'S DONE IT'S WORK I think NOT! Yours is a faulty premise......as the following verses demonstrate. It's so nice to have Quick Verse on my Computer..... Rev 14 9 Then a third angel followed them, shouting, “Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or the hand 10must drink the wine of God’s wrath. It is poured out undiluted into God’s cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment rises forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name. Rev. 20 10 Then the Devil, who betrayed them, was thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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Post by genesda on Jun 22, 2004 10:09:29 GMT -5
[quote author=I2AM4GOD No. And neither is the Bible wrong when it says that Hell is an eternal place of torment.Why don't you show where the bible says this? [/color] You have already been shown scripture regarding this by Keikikoka. So you hardly need to ask me.In Eze 18:4 we are told that souls DIE!! This is restated in vs. 20. Yes, human beings physically die. But there are those who won't die when Jesus Christ returns to this World to receive them. How do you explain that, Gene? The bible says SOULS DIE! Eternal life is the reward of the saved and they don't get that reward until Jesus returns. Both Peter and Paul stae this very plainly. [/color] Eternal life begins the moment a person receives salvation. They may die physically, but they will live on in the Lord's presence. Baloney!! Your salvation assures you of eternal life AFTER the resurrection, IF you "endure till the end" as Jesus says, unless we are alive when He returns, then the saved WON'T SEE DEATH AT ALL. [/color] So now, where is this immortality? Will you try to make dying really living someplace else? Christ said that men live only once and are then judged.Right. There is no indication that people are judged at the moment of death. The angels that were ejected with Satan haven't been judged yet, so why should man be different? Besides, no one will be given their final sentence until the judgment has been completed. You want me to believe Cain was suffereing for about 6000 years longer than Hitler. That's just not so.
Really? And you've seen Cain have you? Tell me, Gene, is he with God, or is he in Hades?
They will both receive their sentence and it will be carried out at the same time. [/color] I have no problem with that statement. You're full of contradictions. [/color] In death, there is no life. Death is the absence of life. Physical death is the absence of physical life. The second death, which is spiritual, is eternal separation from God. The deceased continues to exist in Hell or the lake of fire.Just as I thought. Being dead means being alive someplace else.
I have just explained it to you. So I won't repeat myself. I made that mistake with Traffic Demon. Sure, an explanation that is contrary to the teachings of the bible.
Don't you understand that dead means NO LIFE at all? [/color] Stones aren't referred to as "dead". They are said to be "lifeless" because they never had life to begin with. Why is it so hard for you to let go of the fairy tales? Really, Gene. I would never have known if you hadn't told me. I believe you. [/color] By the way, that was sarcasm. ;D I took it then and still do as literal. [/color] By the way, the bible says that Sodom burned with an unquenchable fire. If that fire was really unquenchable, it would still be burning. Is Sodom still burning? [/b][/color] Not in the physical sense, as it no longer exists. But there may be a spiritual Sodom and Gomorrah - only God knows. Now you're injecting more unbiblical ideas into the biblical story to justify your preconcieved notions about the word unquenchable. Sodom wasn't changed into another dimension where it's still burning and we can't see it. Why can't you just accept that the translators injected their ideas into the translations too?[/color] And now we're back to not trusting the Bible translators. I'm inclined to place more trust in them than in you. O.K., but there are proven instances of them getting it wrong in a couple of places that I know of.
Wow! You need to correct them, Gene, and fast! Souls are depending on you! ;D Not me, but a clear understanding of the scriptures which you prove you lack.
And you have been proving to me that the same applies to you. Even the Pagans believe that once you die you cease to exist. There are many pagan beliefs. You cling to the greatest of them all. And Sodom and Gomorrah were the closest thing to Hell on Earth.[/color] You base this statement on what? Read Genesis ch.18, vv.16-33 and chapter 19. The outcry against Sodom and Gommorah was so great that the Lord actually went down to take a look. He decided that the people were so wicked that He rained burning sulphur on them from the heavens.There was no transformation of the cities on the plain that were destroyed to another dimension. The fire was unquenchable UNTIL the work of the fire was complete in the destruction of the cities, and it went out! The lake of fire will also go out when it's job is finished. I find that comforting.
There was no comfort for the people who were consumed by that burning sulphur. Afterwards, they went to Hell. Again, hell is simply the grave.
Hell is also eternal separation from God, and Hell is what the lake of fire will be. Wrong again. The bible says that death AND hell will be cast into the lake of fire. Do you think the fire won't be hot enough and God has to add to it, or do you think your concept of hell is wrong? [/color]
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Post by genesda on Jun 22, 2004 10:11:55 GMT -5
[quote author=I2AM4GOD I worship a God that hands out justice. Some look to a God that would take pleasure in making sinners suffer thousands and thousands of milliniums for the sins of a few years here on Earth.[/b][/color] Either way, you don't know.Ah!, but I do. The wicked will be destroyed completely and be as though they had never been, just like satan. Sin will be eradicated from the universe forever (without end).
What is spirit is eternal and "goes back to God". You said so yourself. I said no such thing. I said that God's spirit/breath of life (they're the same) returns to God and death occurs.
So, in the light of that, and your very rigid understanding of the scriptures, where does that leave Satan? He is a spirit. Does he go back to God or get thrown into the lake of fire? How do you know satan is a spirit? He is an angel, a different species of created being. He can transform himself into many impersonations of whatever he wishes.
That wouldn't be a loving God, but a tyrant that Satan wants people think He is.
I see. So God should just turn a blind eye to all the evil that's going on in the World? Adolf Hitler deserves mercy, does he? In his name, terrible acts of wickedness were committed against innocent people, many of whom were put to death in the gas chambers. But, hey, that doesn't justify eternal punishment. Adolf wasn't really such a bad guy. He was just misunderstood. Yeah, right. Andy, you're getting irrational and making foolish statements.
Let's call it 'controlled "I" rationality', designed to increase the pressure on you. ;D What pressure? You haven't offered one thing to show that you know whatr you're talking about. All you give is standard opinions from your denomination.
Hitler will receive what God deems necessary as a punishment and it will be eternal destruction. He will be destroyed for all eternity and there will nbe no resurrection for him to eternal life. [/color] Satan gets people to hate God with his lies about "eternal suffer-ING, rather than God destroying the wicked out of existance so sin will no longer exist in the universe. Eternal suffering is biblical. NO IT ISN'T!! YES IT IS!!Prove it! [/color] But Man always wants to have the easy way out, to not be held accountable for his sins.[/color] You may be right, but those who don't repent will pay for their sins. I just don't believe a just God would make someone suffer for all eternity for the sins of a few short years here.
But God is Holy and won't tolerate sin forevermore..... Exactly! If people were allowed to suffer in the sight of those in heaven, how long would it be before people started questioning God about His cruelty? The bible says the wicked will be destroyed. That means complete. Finished. [/color] And their destruction, or ruin, is eternal.Now you're starting to get it! They will be destroyed for all eternity. They will never be resurrected from that destruction. They won't be destruct-ING for all eternity though. [/color] The bible plainly states that only those " in Christ" will have eternal life.[/b][/color] That is, eternally abundant life.NO!! You're adding to the scriptures again!! Without Jesus there IS NO LIFE AT ALL!! [/color] I disagree with you. We agree to disagree. We disagree because you insist on hanging onto pagan ideas. [/color] We disagree because you like to think you are all knowing about everything biblical, and you're not.Andy, you're REJECTING what the bible says to hold onto what you've been xyhgt fed. The bible plainly says there is only life in Jesus. [/color] Andy, you believe a distorted version of the gospel. You still offer nothing but your opinions. [/b][/color] There is only one Gospel, of which there are four different versions. I believe in the Gospels the same as you. Are the Gospels distortions of the Truth, as revealed through Jesus Christ? Nope. There's much more to the bible than the gospels.
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Post by genesda on Jun 22, 2004 10:18:40 GMT -5
I think NOT! Yours is a faulty premise......as the following verses demonstrate. It's so nice to have Quick Verse on my Computer..... Rev 14 9 Then a third angel followed them, shouting, “Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or the hand 10must drink the wine of God’s wrath. It is poured out undiluted into God’s cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment rises forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name. Rev. 20 10 Then the Devil, who betrayed them, was thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. O.K., now is the time for word study. "Ever" "Forever" comes from the Greek "Aion", which can mean "without end" or a "given length of time". It only means "without end" when referring to God or things of His nature.
The "aion" of a cigarette is from the time it's lit, until it burns out. It doesn't mean eternal.
There are other examples of "deternal fires" in the scrioptures that are no longer burning. Sodom is said to burn with an unquenchable fire. It is no longer burning.
Satan is said to burned to ashes and will be no more.
Jesus gave many example of man being destroyed, not left suffering.
I have a good study on this in more detail with Jesus' quotes on man's fate and will get it on here by tomorrow.
Man will not burn forever and ever. The fire will go out. That's the good news.
[/color]
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Post by I2AM4GOD on Jun 22, 2004 11:41:02 GMT -5
[quote author=I2AM4GOD link=board=narrowdebate&thread=1080660457&start=72#4 date=1087909373 b] No, I'm using the bible as my guide. You haven't really studied it have you? [/b][/color] Okay, confession time for me. No, I'm not into deeply studying the Bible. I'm not a studious kind of guy. But when I read something, I think carefully about what it is saying and I and my Christian friends often get together and discuss the scriptures. I often get more out of having fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ than I do with locking myself in my room getting as extreme as possible about what the Bible says. Discussing ideas with others who believe the same things as you leads to confirmation of errors. [/color] Correction: We don't agree on all the scriptures, only some, and my friends are as knowledgeable about them as you claim to be, if not more so. And one of them is very studious in the scriptures.Sorry, but if your friend says that man has anything that is naturally immortal, then they don't know what they're talking about and have bought that pagan lie just as you have. [/color] And, of course, you believe in eternal punishment while at the same time not believing in it. Very confusing. He is sold out for the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact they both are. The other one says that your belief that the soul ceases to exist after death is pure baloney. It really doesn't make any sense. She doesn't say that because I say that, or vice versa. So you don't know what you are talking about.[/color] You are your friends can end this quickly by showing any scripture that says a soul has natural immortality.
Where in the Bible does it say that the soul (personality) is only physical and not part of a person's inner, spiritual self? And while you're at it, why don't you read Paul's account of his struggle with sin in Romans ch.7, vv.14-24? His struggle is between his carnal, soulish mind and his spiritual, God-given nature. He says "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do - this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am!"
It is still the case that the eternal punishment is eternal. And what is spirit can never turn to dust, as you seem to suggest when you erroneously claim that once a person has physically died, their soul no longer exists.
Andy, Genesis 2:7 tells us what a soul is. If that process is reversed, all you have left is what was there before God's spirit was added. This is so simple to understand if you discard the pagan teachings.Why do you hold onto them?
Simple - without your soul you wouldn't be able to think and function as a human being. Genesis 2:7 says that man became a living being, i.e. body, SOUL and spirit.
That isn't a biblical claim. Gene, you can be as extreme as you like when it comes to the Bible, but it doesn't mean that you are any more right than the rest of us. ;D Andy, The bible is clear on what happens to a man at death. It's only when the false pagan ideas are mixed with the scriptures that truth turns into what you profess. [/color] There you go again. Always arguing, but never willing to be corrected. SDA, right + everybody else, wrong = arrogant denomination.Andy. P.S: And now I'm withdrawing from this debate for a while, as I sense that another, epic, Genesda v everybody else theological argument is about to begin. That's O.K. by me. I'm confident in what I hold on to. [/color][/quote] Which would be great - if what you say about the soul made sense. Sadly, it doesn't.
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Post by I2AM4GOD on Jun 22, 2004 12:03:37 GMT -5
Everybody, have fun trying to get through to Gene. I think it will take you an eternity! ;D Sorry, but I couldn't resist.
And Gene, could you please explain to me how exactly the Greek word "Aion" can mean both "without end" and "given length of time"? The reason I ask is because I have never known a word to have two opposite meanings. The way I see it there's two possiblities:
1. Mistranslation of the word "Aion"
2. The folks filling your head with the alternative SDA teachings, which they claim are based on the Bible, made it up.
Andy.
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Post by keikikoka on Jun 22, 2004 12:25:12 GMT -5
Gene doesn't know what he is talking about. Infact, the greek word Aion isn't even used in that pkmtyolpage in Rev. I'm about to do a post on it.
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Post by keikikoka on Jun 22, 2004 12:40:49 GMT -5
Lets take a look at the pkmtyolpage in question in greek, in order to get a full understanding of what it means.
Revelation 14:11
11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name. (nasb)
Kai (conj) and Ho (prn, art, nom, sg, m) the Kapnos(noun, nom, sg, m) smoke Tou(prn, gen, sg, mas) of the Basanismou(n, gen, sg, mas) torture Autôn (prn, pers/poss, gen, pl) of themselves Eis (prep) for Aiônas (n, accu, pl, mas) lifetimes Aiônôn (n, gen, pl, mas) of lifetimes Anabainei (v, 3rd, pre, act, ind, sg) it goes up , kai (con) and ouk (adv) not exousin (vb, 3rd, pres, act, ind, pl) they have anapausin (n, accus, sg, f) rest hemeras (n, gen, sg, f) of day kai (con) and nuktos (n, gen, sg, f) of night
A literal translation with no change for english grammer: And the smoke of the torture of themselves for lifetimes of lifetimes it goes up, and not they have rest of day and of night,
A translation that moves words in regards to english grammer: And the smoke of the torture of themselves it goes up for lifetimes of lifetimes, and they have not rest of day and of night,
A translation that uses modern style english. And the smoke of their torture goes up for lifetimes of lifetimes, and they do not have rest day or night,
The words used to express “for ever and ever” in the NASB are “aiônas aiônôn” These words come from the root word aion. Aion means the span of ones existance or, simplyput, lifetime. The greek phrase, using modified versions of aion, means lifetimes of lifetimes. It is a greek idiom for a vast expanse of time without end. This verse is clear that the torture of those with the mark of the beast will have a torture lasting “lifetimes of lifetimes” or without end.
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Post by AuntRonda on Jun 22, 2004 18:44:01 GMT -5
Lets take a look at the pkmtyolpage in question in greek, in order to get a full understanding of what it means. Revelation 14:11 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name. (nasb) Kai (conj) and Ho (prn, art, nom, sg, m) the Kapnos(noun, nom, sg, m) smoke Tou(prn, gen, sg, mas) of the Basanismou(n, gen, sg, mas) torture Autôn (prn, pers/poss, gen, pl) of themselves Eis (prep) for Aiônas (n, accu, pl, mas) lifetimes Aiônôn (n, gen, pl, mas) of lifetimes Anabainei (v, 3rd, pre, act, ind, sg) it goes up , kai (con) and ouk (adv) not exousin (vb, 3rd, pres, act, ind, pl) they have anapausin (n, accus, sg, f) rest hemeras (n, gen, sg, f) of day kai (con) and nuktos (n, gen, sg, f) of night A literal translation with no change for english grammer: And the smoke of the torture of themselves for lifetimes of lifetimes it goes up, and not they have rest of day and of night, A translation that moves words in regards to english grammer: And the smoke of the torture of themselves it goes up for lifetimes of lifetimes, and they have not rest of day and of night, A translation that uses modern style english. And the smoke of their torture goes up for lifetimes of lifetimes, and they do not have rest day or night, The words used to express “for ever and ever” in the NASB are “aiônas aiônôn” These words come from the root word aion. Aion means the span of ones existance or, simplyput, lifetime. The greek phrase, using modified versions of aion, means lifetimes of lifetimes. It is a greek idiom for a vast expanse of time without end. This verse is clear that the torture of those with the mark of the beast will have a torture lasting “lifetimes of lifetimes” or without end. Thanks for the information. I once had a Pastor who always explained the Greek or Hebrew to us. He was very scholarly in that respect. Ronda
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Post by genesda on Jun 23, 2004 6:42:40 GMT -5
Everybody, have fun trying to get through to Gene. I think it will take you an eternity! ;D Sorry, but I couldn't resist. And Gene, could you please explain to me how exactly the Greek word "Aion" can mean both "without end" and "given length of time"? The reason I ask is because I have never known a word to have two opposite meanings. The way I see it there's two possiblities: 1. Mistranslation of the word "Aion" 2. The folks filling your head with the alternative SDA teachings, which they claim are based on the Bible, made it up. Andy. Simply because it does. You seem to want to say "mistranslation" that which you don't understand. You can see the whole study by typing "AION" in your search engine and explore. Aion can mean "Eternal,without end" when applied to God, but not to man's stay anywhere. I hope this helps you understand what is truth in "eternal" in the scriptures [/color] Placed into electronic format February 1998 by Kent Myers on behalf of: Tentmaker Ministry 118 Walnut Hermann, MO 65041 Web Page: www.tentmaker.org/Email: tentmaker@ktis.net THE GREEK WORD AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS, TRANSLATED Everlasting -- Eternal IN THE HOLY BIBLE, SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION. BY REV. JOHN WESLEY HANSON, A.M. Editor of THE NEW COVENANT CHICAGO: NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSALIST PUBLISHING HOUSE 1875 Entered according to Act of Congress, in the year 1875 BY J. W. HANSON, In the office of the Librarian of Congress at Washington D. C. N.T. SMITH Print. 286 Wabash Ave., CHICAGO PREFACE The verbal pivot on which swings the question, Does the Bible teach the doctrine of Endless Punishment? Is the word Aión and its derivatives and reduplications. The author of this treatise has endeavored to put within brief compkmtyolp the essential facts pertaining to the history and use of the word, and he thinks he has conclusively shown that it affords no support whatever to the erroneous doctrine.[/b] It will generally be conceded that the tenet referred to is not contained in the Scriptures if the meaning of endless duration does not reside in the controverted word. The reader is implored to examine the evidence presented, as the author trusts it has been collected, with a sincere desire to learn the truth. AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS INTRODUCTION It is a prevalent idea that the words "Eternal, Everlasting, Forever," etc., in the English Bible, signify endless duration. This essay aims to prove the popular impression erroneous. The inquiry will be pursued in a manner that shall be satisfactory to the scholar, and also enable the ordinary reader to apprehend the facts, so that both the learned and the unlearned may be able to see the subject in a light that shall relieve the Scriptures of seeming to teach a doctrine that blackens the character of God, and plunges a deadly sting into the believing heart. The original Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek, by seventy scholars, and hence called "The Septuagint," B.C. 200-300,(1) and the Hebrew word Olam is, in almost all cases, translated AiónAiónios etc., (Aíwv, Aíwvios,) so that the two words may be regarded as synonymous with each other. In the New Testament the same words Aión and its derivatives, are the original Greek of the English words,Eternal, Everlasting, Forever, etc.. So that when we ascertain the real meaning of Aión, we have settled the sense of those English words in which the doctrine of Endless Punishment is erroneously taught. It is not going to far to say that if the Greek Aión - Aiónios does not denote endless duration, then endless punishment is not taught in the Bible. We proceed to show that the sense of interminable duration does not reside in the word. Three avenues are open to us in which to pursue this important investigation. I. Etymology, II. Lexicography, III. Usage. Our first appeal will be to Etymology.
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Post by I2AM4GOD on Jun 23, 2004 8:47:53 GMT -5
Everybody, have fun trying to get through to Gene. I think it will take you an eternity! ;D Sorry, but I couldn't resist. And Gene, could you please explain to me how exactly the Greek word "Aion" can mean both "without end" and "given length of time"? The reason I ask is because I have never known a word to have two opposite meanings. The way I see it there's two possiblities: 1. Mistranslation of the word "Aion" 2. The folks filling your head with the alternative SDA teachings, which they claim are based on the Bible, made it up. Andy. Simply because it does. You seem to want to say "mistranslation" that which you don't understand. You can see the whole study by typing "AION" in your search engine and explore. Aion can mean "Eternal,without end" when applied to God, but not to man's stay anywhere. I hope this helps you understand what is truth in "eternal" in the scriptures [/color] "Eternal" means "forever" and "without end". The significance of this when it's applied to the eternal punishment of the wicked makes you feel very uncomfortable. Why?Placed into electronic format February 1998 by Kent Myers on behalf of: Tentmaker Ministry 118 Walnut Hermann, MO 65041 Web Page: www.tentmaker.org/Email: tentmaker@ktis.net I wonder whether this is an SDA approved Web site?THE GREEK WORD AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS, TRANSLATED Everlasting -- Eternal IN THE HOLY BIBLE, SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION. BY REV. JOHN WESLEY HANSON, A.M. Editor of THE NEW COVENANT CHICAGO: NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSALIST PUBLISHING HOUSE 1875 Entered according to Act of Congress, in the year 1875 BY J. W. HANSON, In the office of the Librarian of Congress at Washington D. C. N.T. SMITH Print. 286 Wabash Ave., CHICAGO PREFACE The verbal pivot on which swings the question, Does the Bible teach the doctrine of Endless Punishment? It would appear so. Every bible I've looked at and every Christian I've met have said as much. And the word "eternal" means "forever". Is the word Aión and its derivatives and reduplications. The author of this treatise has endeavored to put within brief compkmtyolp the essential facts pertaining to the history and use of the word, and he thinks he has conclusively shown that it affords no support whatever to the erroneous doctrine.[/b] It will generally be conceded that the tenet referred to is not contained in the Scriptures if the meaning of endless duration does not reside in the controverted word. The reader is implored to examine the evidence presented, as the author trusts it has been collected, with a sincere desire to learn the truth. AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS INTRODUCTION It is a prevalent idea that the words "Eternal, Everlasting, Forever," etc., in the English Bible, signify endless duration. This essay aims to prove the popular impression erroneous. The inquiry will be pursued in a manner that shall be satisfactory to the scholar, and also enable the ordinary reader to apprehend the facts, so that both the learned and the unlearned may be able to see the subject in a light that shall relieve the Scriptures of seeming to teach a doctrine that blackens the character of God, and plunges a deadly sting into the believing heart.I have sometimes wondered whether God would punish the wicked forever by throwing them into an eternal fire that never goes out. But its the wicked who are responsible for putting themselves there. God won't tolerate evil in His presence. Does the doctrine of eternal, fiery punishment blacken God's name? Only in the minds of the God-haters of this World. The original Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek, by seventy scholars, and hence called "The Septuagint," B.C. 200-300,(1) and the Hebrew word Olam is, in almost all cases, translated AiónAiónios etc., (Aíwv, Aíwvios,) so that the two words may be regarded as synonymous with each other. In the New Testament the same words Aión and its derivatives, are the original Greek of the English words,Eternal, Everlasting, Forever, etc.. So that when we ascertain the real meaning of Aión, we have settled the sense of those English words in which the doctrine of Endless Punishment is erroneously taught. It is not going to far to say that if the Greek Aión - Aiónios does not denote endless duration, then endless punishment is not taught in the Bible. We proceed to show that the sense of interminable duration does not reside in the word. Three avenues are open to us in which to pursue this important investigation. I. Etymology, II. Lexicography, III. Usage. Our first appeal will be to Etymology. Gene, if the eternal punishment of the wicked isn't eternal, what happens to them next? Where do they go? Spirit cannot perish like flesh and blood because it isn't physical.Andy.
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Post by genesda on Jun 23, 2004 9:09:21 GMT -5
[quote author=I2AM4GOD
Gene, if the eternal punishment of the wicked isn't eternal, what happens to them next? Where do they go? Spirit cannot perish like flesh and blood because it isn't physical.
Andy. Andy, I'll try this again. There is no spirit, ghost, soul or whatever that lives on after the body dies. The resurrection will be a bodily resurrection. Dead people will live again. The wicked will be cast BODILY into the lake of fire. They will be destroyed, consumed, turned to ashes. They will be no more. It will be as if they never existed at all after the fire has done it's job. The example is Sodom and Gomorroh. They were said to be burning with an unquenchable fire. That fire is now out. It did it's job assigned by God and when it was finished, it went out, even though it was said to be unquenchable. There is no other dimension where it is still burning. The fires there were only unquenchable while there was work left to do.
Whoever told you that "spirits" won't perish?
I've given you the scriptures that plainly state that souls die too. souls are not immortal. In fact, Jesus confirmed that souls can be destroyed if you want to use Him as a source. Souls are nothing but people, "living soul" as the bible called Adam.
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Post by genesda on Jun 23, 2004 9:17:43 GMT -5
Everybody, have fun trying to get through to Gene. I think it will take you an eternity! ;D Sorry, but I couldn't resist. And Gene, could you please explain to me how exactly the Greek word "Aion" can mean both "without end" and "given length of time"? The reason I ask is because I have never known a word to have two opposite meanings. The way I see it there's two possiblities: 1. Mistranslation of the word "Aion" 2. The folks filling your head with the alternative SDA teachings, which they claim are based on the Bible, made it up. Andy. Simply because it does. You seem to want to say "mistranslation" that which you don't understand. You can see the whole study by typing "AION" in your search engine and explore. Aion can mean "Eternal,without end" when applied to God, but not to man's stay anywhere. I hope this helps you understand what is truth in "eternal" in the scriptures [/color] "Eternal" means "forever" and "without end". The significance of this when it's applied to the eternal punishment of the wicked makes you feel very uncomfortable. Why? I'm not uncomfortable at all. I just don't like God being portrayed as a tyrant that would be so unjust as to make people burn for thousands of centuries for the sins of a few short years here on Earth. That's Satan's description of God to make people think He's unjust. [/color] Placed into electronic format February 1998 by Kent Myers on behalf of: Tentmaker Ministry 118 Walnut Hermann, MO 65041 Web Page: www.tentmaker.org/Email: tentmaker@ktis.net I wonder whether this is an SDA approved Web site?THE GREEK WORD AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS, TRANSLATED Everlasting -- Eternal IN THE HOLY BIBLE, SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION. BY REV. JOHN WESLEY HANSON, A.M. Editor of THE NEW COVENANT CHICAGO: NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSALIST PUBLISHING HOUSE 1875 Entered according to Act of Congress, in the year 1875 BY J. W. HANSON, In the office of the Librarian of Congress at Washington D. C. N.T. SMITH Print. 286 Wabash Ave., CHICAGO PREFACE The verbal pivot on which swings the question, Does the Bible teach the doctrine of Endless Punishment? It would appear so. Every bible I've looked at and every Christian I've met have said as much. And the word "eternal" means "forever". Because they're as uninformed as you. This study which you seem to reject explains the matter fully, if you're interested in finding your mistakes. [/color] Is the word Aión and its derivatives and reduplications. The author of this treatise has endeavored to put within brief compkmtyolp the essential facts pertaining to the history and use of the word, and he thinks he has conclusively shown that it affords no support whatever to the erroneous doctrine.[/b] It will generally be conceded that the tenet referred to is not contained in the Scriptures if the meaning of endless duration does not reside in the controverted word. The reader is implored to examine the evidence presented, as the author trusts it has been collected, with a sincere desire to learn the truth. AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS INTRODUCTION It is a prevalent idea that the words "Eternal, Everlasting, Forever," etc., in the English Bible, signify endless duration. This essay aims to prove the popular impression erroneous. The inquiry will be pursued in a manner that shall be satisfactory to the scholar, and also enable the ordinary reader to apprehend the facts, so that both the learned and the unlearned may be able to see the subject in a light that shall relieve the Scriptures of seeming to teach a doctrine that blackens the character of God, and plunges a deadly sting into the believing heart.I have sometimes wondered whether God would punish the wicked forever by throwing them into an eternal fire that never goes out. But its the wicked who are responsible for putting themselves there. God won't tolerate evil in His presence. Sin cannot exist in God's universe, but you seem to want to say that it can. If there is no end to sinners, then sin will always exist. You cannot have it both ways. Does the doctrine of eternal, fiery punishment blacken God's name? Only in the minds of the God-haters of this World.[/color] Actually, it's that false doctrine that makes some hate God. It's the other way around from the lie that Satan has spawned about God. [/color] The original Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek, by seventy scholars, and hence called "The Septuagint," B.C. 200-300,(1) and the Hebrew word Olam is, in almost all cases, translated AiónAiónios etc., (Aíwv, Aíwvios,) so that the two words may be regarded as synonymous with each other. In the New Testament the same words Aión and its derivatives, are the original Greek of the English words,Eternal, Everlasting, Forever, etc.. So that when we ascertain the real meaning of Aión, we have settled the sense of those English words in which the doctrine of Endless Punishment is erroneously taught. It is not going to far to say that if the Greek Aión - Aiónios does not denote endless duration, then endless punishment is not taught in the Bible. We proceed to show that the sense of interminable duration does not reside in the word. Three avenues are open to us in which to pursue this important investigation. I. Etymology, II. Lexicography, III. Usage. Our first appeal will be to Etymology. Gene, if the eternal punishment of the wicked isn't eternal, what happens to them next? Where do they go? Spirit cannot perish like flesh and blood because it isn't physical.Andy. Andy, I maintain that you're confused about the term spirit. It's not what you think it is. [/color] [/quote]
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