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Post by I2AM4GOD on Jun 17, 2004 9:30:00 GMT -5
"Then was brought unto Him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and He healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: and if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." - Matthew, ch.12, vv.22-32 Andy. O.K., what's the point? I'm assuming you've missed what I was trying to say. Would you rather die in Christ or be healed by Satan? All healing doesn't come from God. We have the biblical example of a woman who was "bound" by Satan. Jesus "loosed" her before Satan could use her. Satan still uses many people today and they don't even know it. Example: The bible never speaks of natural immortailty, yet pastors are preaching this pagan lie in their churches to people who think they are hearing the gospel as given by God. Now, who do you think would inspire this lie? Read Eze. 18:4 and you will find that souls die. Souls, which is just another word for living beings are not immortal. There is no such thing as an "immortal soul". that phrase is nowhere in the bible.
[/color][/quote] If you don't believe in the eternal soul, you cannot believe in salvation, as the two go together. When you die, do you simply cease to exist or do you go to your eternal destination? If you simply cease to exist, what was the point of God creating you as a spiritual, as well as physical being? What was the point of Him giving you a mind, will and emotions (soul), without which you would have no personality? The quoted scripture pkmtyolpage clearly emphasizes that deliverance is as much a part of the spiritual gift of healing as the physical restoration of the individual. If a person has been delivered of demons, that is a sure sign that he/she is in the process of receiving a complete healing. As a general rule, Satan is not in the business of healing people. He may relieve a person's symptoms, but only for as long as it suits him. And Satan will never deliver someone of demons - he would be undermining his own agenda, which is ultimately about destroying that person! The Satanic counterfeit for healing is not the same as the true healing which comes from God. I believe in a God who heals as well as saves. The woman who was loosed by Christ - which one are you talking about? If it's the prostitute, Mary Magdalene, He delivered her of demons. She believed and accepted Him as Lord, repented of her sins, was healed and was saved. Now I have a question for you: do you believe that deliverance from evil spirits is demonic? If so, then please give me the relevant scriptural pkmtyolpages to back up your claim. Andy.
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Post by genesda on Jun 17, 2004 10:46:21 GMT -5
If you don't believe in the eternal soul, you cannot believe in salvation, as the two go together. This is a false belief. A "soul" is nothing more than a living being as Genesis 2:7 explains. There is no such thing as a naturally eternal soul. Salvation and the pagan belief of a naturally eternal soul most certainly DON'T go together. [/color] When you die, do you simply cease to exist or do you go to your eternal destination? Exactly! one ceases to exist UNTIL the resurrection,. The bible never says anything contrary to this. When Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb, Lazarus had no idea of how much time pkmtyolped while he was dead. [/color] If you simply cease to exist, what was the point of God creating you as a spiritual, as well as physical being? It is obvious that you don't understand what is meant by "spiritual". Spiritual is what your character reflects. [/color] What was the point of Him giving you a mind, will and emotions (soul), without which you would have no personality? Your mind, will and emotions are what makes you a person. [/color] The quoted scripture pkmtyolpage clearly emphasizes that deliverance is as much a part of the spiritual gift of healing as the physical restoration of the individual. If a person has been delivered of demons, that is a sure sign that he/she is in the process of receiving a complete healing. No it isn't. A person can choose to return to a life of sin if one chooses to do so. [/color] As a general rule, Satan is not in the business of healing people. He may relieve a person's symptoms, but only for as long as it suits him. My point exactly! [/color] And Satan will never deliver someone of demons - he would be undermining his own agenda, which is ultimately about destroying that person. [/b][/color] There are many ways to destroym people. Some of them include allowing some to call themselves Christians while they are actually antiChrist without even knowing it. [/color] The Satanic counterfeit for healing is not the same as the true healing which comes from God. I believe in a God who heals as well as saves. You're mixing apples and oranges here. [/color] The woman who was loosed by Christ - which one are you talking about? If it's the prostitute, Mary Magdalene, He delivered her of demons. She believed and accepted Him as Lord, repented of her sins, was healed and was saved. Yes, and Jesus told her "go and sin no more". [/color] Now I have a question for you: do you believe that deliverance from evil spirits is demonic? No, but there is a false deliverance that Satan will use to deceive also. [/color] If so, then please give me the relevant scriptural pkmtyolpages to back up your claim. Andy. Satan will work miracles in the last days, and he will appear as an angel of light. I don't have the ch and vs right now, but I'm sure that you are aware of these verses.
A good example is the one I gave. satan will allow demons to appear to flee from one who is living in sin to re-enforce that person's belief that repentence isn't necessary so that person can influence others. All miracles aren't necessarily from God. Only by the strength of the scriptures can one discern which is from God. [/color]
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Post by I2AM4GOD on Jun 18, 2004 6:29:01 GMT -5
If you don't believe in the eternal soul, you cannot believe in salvation, as the two go together. This is a false belief. A "soul" is nothing more than a living being as Genesis 2:7 explains. There is no such thing as a naturally eternal soul. Salvation and the pagan belief of a naturally eternal soul most certainly DON'T go together. [/color] If that is the case, then no-one need fear Hell. There's no such thing as eternal punishment, even though it is mentioned in the Bible. When you die, do you simply cease to exist or do you go to your eternal destination? Exactly! one ceases to exist UNTIL the resurrection,. The bible never says anything contrary to this.
Nowhere in the Bible is there mention of people ceasing to exist once they have physically died. You and I are more than just flesh and blood - we are also spiritual beings. And how do you explain King Saul talking to the deceased Samuel as mentioned in 1 Samuel, chapter 28?
When Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb, Lazarus had no idea of how much time pkmtyolped while he was dead. [/color] There is only a short Biblical account of Lazarus being raised from the dead. There is no mention of the conversation afterwards between he and Christ. So we don't know. If you simply cease to exist, what was the point of God creating you as a spiritual, as well as physical being? It is obvious that you don't understand what is meant by "spiritual". Spiritual is what your character reflects. [/color] Don't you know that angels are spirit beings, not flesh and blood like us? What was the point of Him giving you a mind, will and emotions (soul), without which you would have no personality? Your mind, will and emotions are what makes you a person. [/color] But these things aren't your physical body.The quoted scripture pkmtyolpage clearly emphasizes that deliverance is as much a part of the spiritual gift of healing as the physical restoration of the individual. If a person has been delivered of demons, that is a sure sign that he/she is in the process of receiving a complete healing. No it isn't. A person can choose to return to a life of sin if one chooses to do so. [/color] Of course. As a general rule, Satan is not in the business of healing people. He may relieve a person's symptoms, but only for as long as it suits him. My point exactly! [/color] And Satan will never deliver someone of demons - he would be undermining his own agenda, which is ultimately about destroying that person. [/b][/color] There are many ways to destroym people. Some of them include allowing some to call themselves Christians while they are actually antiChrist without even knowing it. [/color] True. The Satanic counterfeit for healing is not the same as the true healing which comes from God. I believe in a God who heals as well as saves. You're mixing apples and oranges here. [/color] Not at all. The woman who was loosed by Christ - which one are you talking about? If it's the prostitute, Mary Magdalene, He delivered her of demons. She believed and accepted Him as Lord, repented of her sins, was healed and was saved. Yes, and Jesus told her "go and sin no more". [/color] Now I have a question for you: do you believe that deliverance from evil spirits is demonic? No, but there is a false deliverance that Satan will use to deceive also. [/color] I'll keep an open mind about that. If so, then please give me the relevant scriptural pkmtyolpages to back up your claim. Andy. Satan will work miracles in the last days, and he will appear as an angel of light.
True.
I don't have the ch and vs right now, but I'm sure that you are aware of these verses.
A good example is the one I gave. satan will allow demons to appear to flee from one who is living in sin to re-enforce that person's belief that repentence isn't necessary so that person can influence others.
Deliverance requires repentence. No repentence, no deliverance. If that person isn't genuinely repentent, he will soon end up in a far worse state than he previously was.
All miracles aren't necessarily from God. Only by the strength of the scriptures can one discern which is from God.
Knowledge of the scriptures is important, but so too is having the spiritual gift of discernment which comes from God. Without it you cannot discern what is going on in the spiritual realm. [/color][/quote] Andy.
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Post by genesda on Jun 18, 2004 7:06:14 GMT -5
If you don't believe in the eternal soul, you cannot believe in salvation, as the two go together. This is a false belief. A "soul" is nothing more than a living being as Genesis 2:7 explains. There is no such thing as a naturally eternal soul. Salvation and the pagan belief of a naturally eternal soul most certainly DON'T go together. If that is the case, then no-one need fear Hell. There's no such thing as eternal punishment, even though it is mentioned in the Bible. Of coursde the wicked will pay for their sins in the lake of fire as the bible says. Why do you insert foolish statements in your posts? [/color] When you die, do you simply cease to exist or do you go to your eternal destination? Exactly! one ceases to exist UNTIL the resurrection,. The bible never says anything contrary to this. Nowhere in the Bible is there mention of people ceasing to exist once they have physically died. Of course it does. In Eccleasties we are told that man returns to the dust and the spirit returns to God from where it came. Here you have the same elements after separation of the spirit and the results of that separation. [/color] You and I are more than just flesh and blood - we are also spiritual beings. And how do you explain King Saul talking to the deceased Samuel as mentioned in 1 Samuel, chapter 28? Do you believe witches can bring the dead back to life? Do you believe they "come up" when they are called? Do you believe witches have supernatural powers and that that particular witch over ruled God? After all, the bible also says God refused to answer Saul, so that means a witch could get Samuel to appear after God refused to answer Saul? No, Samuel didn't appear, it was Satan impersonating Samuel as he so often does to trick those weak in the scriptures. [/color] When Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb, Lazarus had no idea of how much time pkmtyolped while he was dead. There is only a short Biblical account of Lazarus being raised from the dead. There is no mention of the conversation afterwards between he and Christ. So we don't know. Right, but don't you think Lazarus would have come out screaming about being called back from heaven or rejoicing being called back from "hell"? Just face the facts we do know as given to us. Lazarus came from the tomb where he was laid. [/color] If you simply cease to exist, what was the point of God creating you as a spiritual, as well as physical being? It is obvious that you don't understand what is meant by "spiritual". Spiritual is what your character reflects. Don't you know that angels are spirit beings, not flesh and blood like us? What does this have to do with what we're discussing here? Angels are a different order of being than we. [/color] What was the point of Him giving you a mind, will and emotions (soul), without which you would have no personality? Your mind, will and emotions are what makes you a person. But these things aren't your physical body. Of course they are. Without the physical, there would be no mental or spiritual. [/color] The quoted scripture pkmtyolpage clearly emphasizes that deliverance is as much a part of the spiritual gift of healing as the physical restoration of the individual. If a person has been delivered of demons, that is a sure sign that he/she is in the process of receiving a complete healing. No it isn't. A person can choose to return to a life of sin if one chooses to do so. Of course. As a general rule, Satan is not in the business of healing people. He may relieve a person's symptoms, but only for as long as it suits him. My point exactly! And Satan will never deliver someone of demons - he would be undermining his own agenda, which is ultimately about destroying that person. [/b][/color] There are many ways to destroym people. Some of them include allowing some to call themselves Christians while they are actually antiChrist without even knowing it. True. The Satanic counterfeit for healing is not the same as the true healing which comes from God. I believe in a God who heals as well as saves. You're mixing apples and oranges here. Not at all. I say that because satan can bind and loose. [/color] The woman who was loosed by Christ - which one are you talking about? If it's the prostitute, Mary Magdalene, He delivered her of demons. She believed and accepted Him as Lord, repented of her sins, was healed and was saved. Yes, and Jesus told her "go and sin no more". Now I have a question for you: do you believe that deliverance from evil spirits is demonic? No, but there is a false deliverance that Satan will use to deceive also. I'll keep an open mind about that. This is very simple to understand. I'll give an example so you'll see what I mean. Let's say that there is a man who constantly indulges in theft, illegal drugs, whores, and cheating people regularly as a lifestyle. This man has a heart attack and is rushed to the hospital. While he is being worked on, he has a near death experience and is shown the "tunnel of light". He starts to go through and is told, "no, not now, I have things for you to do before you can come through". That man is then revived. Do you really think that man will see any need to repent or change his life. Do you think he'll tell his friends and the friends will see a need to repent? That's a Satanic deception and an example of Satanic healing. Satan is keeping that man in a lost state while letting him believe he's saved. [/color] If so, then please give me the relevant scriptural pkmtyolpages to back up your claim. Andy. Satan will work miracles in the last days, and he will appear as an angel of light. True. I don't have the ch and vs right now, but I'm sure that you are aware of these verses. A good example is the one I gave. satan will allow demons to appear to flee from one who is living in sin to re-enforce that person's belief that repentence isn't necessary so that person can influence others. Deliverance requires repentence. No repentence, no deliverance. If that person isn't genuinely repentent, he will soon end up in a far worse state than he previously was. All miracles aren't necessarily from God. Only by the strength of the scriptures can one discern which is from God. Knowledge of the scriptures is important, but so too is having the spiritual gift of discernment which comes from God. Without it you cannot discern what is going on in the spiritual realm. Andy. What you wrote above here shows that you're confused about what "spiritual" means. This last bit has noting to do with the makeup of a man. Even the wickwed have God's spirit/breath of life/power of life in them. All living things have God's spirit/breath of life/power of life in them. The Breath of life/spirit/power of life is what returns to God when death occurs and the bible makes no distinction between the wicked and the righteous or the animals.
Genesis 2:7 tells us that in order for man to live, God gives us His spirit/breath of life. Before that man is mud. The breath of life/spirit plus the mud equals a living soul. If you separate them, all you have left is what was there originally. There was no such teaching for thousands of years that man had a separate soul that existed apart from the body until some Jews went to Greece to study under the pagans Aristotle and Plato. They brought this pagan notion of a separate body/soul back with them as truth and many accepted it than and taught that. That pagan teaching is still around today in most churches, but it is NOT BIBLICAL. Jesus nor any apostle ever taught that there was a soul or spirit that lived on after the death of the body.
Andy, I used to believe as you until I was shown the truth of what the bible actually says. The first thing you have to get over is the simpkle fact that the phrase "immortal soul" is not found anywhere in the body. The second is that the bioble does say "only God hath immortality".
Satan has deceived many with has twists on what the bible actually says about things. That's why I maintain the whole bible should be used to get a proper consenus on a subject for proper TEACHINGS and not just a verse here or there.
Always remember, the N.T. should be understood in the light of the O.T. in order to get the truth of the scriptures. [/color]
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Post by I2AM4GOD on Jun 18, 2004 9:01:54 GMT -5
If you don't believe in the eternal soul, you cannot believe in salvation, as the two go together. This is a false belief. A "soul" is nothing more than a living being as Genesis 2:7 explains. There is no such thing as a naturally eternal soul. Salvation and the pagan belief of a naturally eternal soul most certainly DON'T go together. If that is the case, then no-one need fear Hell. There's no such thing as eternal punishment, even though it is mentioned in the Bible. Of coursde the wicked will pay for their sins in the lake of fire as the bible says. Why do you insert foolish statements in your posts? [/color] You're contradicting yourself, Gene.When you die, do you simply cease to exist or do you go to your eternal destination? Exactly! one ceases to exist UNTIL the resurrection,. The bible never says anything contrary to this. Nowhere in the Bible is there mention of people ceasing to exist once they have physically died. You and I are more than just flesh and blood - we are also spiritual beings. And how do you explain King Saul talking to the deceased Samuel as mentioned in 1 Samuel, chapter 28? Do you believe witches can bring the dead back to life?
They can, if God allows it. And in this case He allowed it.
Do you believe they "come up" when they are called?
It's possible.
Do you believe witches have supernatural powers and that that particular witch over ruled God?
No. But God allowed it.
After all, the bible also says God refused to answer Saul, so that means a witch could get Samuel to appear after God refused to answer Saul?
God isn't Samuel. Samuel was a prophet of God. God answered Saul by allowing the witch to summon Samuel to speak to Saul.
No, Samuel didn't appear, it was Satan impersonating Samuel as he so often does to trick those weak in the scriptures. [/color] It doesn't say in the scriptural pkmtyolpage that Satan was impersonating Samuel.When Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb, Lazarus had no idea of how much time pkmtyolped while he was dead. There is only a short Biblical account of Lazarus being raised from the dead. There is no mention of the conversation afterwards between he and Christ. So we don't know. Right, but don't you think Lazarus would have come out screaming about being called back from heaven or rejoicing being called back from "hell"? Just face the facts we do know as given to us. Lazarus came from the tomb where he was laid. [/color] Why would Lazarus have necessarily "come out screaming" about having been called back from Heaven by his Lord and Master, Jesus Christ? And there is no mention in the scriptural pkmtyolpage that Lazarus had been called back from Hell. Lazarus and his sisters were blessed by the Lord that day.Don't you know that angels are spirit beings, not flesh and blood like us? What does this have to do with what we're discussing here? Angels are a different order of being than we. [/color] And angels also have souls (personalities), just like us.What was the point of Him giving you a mind, will and emotions (soul), without which you would have no personality? Your mind, will and emotions are what makes you a person. But these things aren't your physical body. Of course they are. Without the physical, there would be no mental or spiritual. [/color] The brain is a physical organ, the soul is not. The body is physical, the spirit is not.The Satanic counterfeit for healing is not the same as the true healing which comes from God. I believe in a God who heals as well as saves. You're mixing apples and oranges here. Not at all. I say that because satan can bind and loose. [/color] Satan is in the business of binding, not loosing.The woman who was loosed by Christ - which one are you talking about? If it's the prostitute, Mary Magdalene, He delivered her of demons. She believed and accepted Him as Lord, repented of her sins, was healed and was saved. Yes, and Jesus told her "go and sin no more". Now I have a question for you: do you believe that deliverance from evil spirits is demonic? No, but there is a false deliverance that Satan will use to deceive also. I'll keep an open mind about that. This is very simple to understand. I'll give an example so you'll see what I mean. Let's say that there is a man who constantly indulges in theft, illegal drugs, whores, and cheating people regularly as a lifestyle. This man has a heart attack and is rushed to the hospital. While he is being worked on, he has a near death experience and is shown the "tunnel of light". He starts to go through and is told, "no, not now, I have things for you to do before you can come through". That man is then revived. Do you really think that man will see any need to repent or change his life.
Who knows? - he may very well do.
Do you think he'll tell his friends and the friends will see a need to repent?
It's quite possible, if he saw Christ and repented himself.
That's a Satanic deception and an example of Satanic healing. Satan is keeping that man in a lost state while letting him believe he's saved. [/color] You don't know that. You're making an assumption.If so, then please give me the relevant scriptural pkmtyolpages to back up your claim. Andy. Satan will work miracles in the last days, and he will appear as an angel of light. True. I don't have the ch and vs right now, but I'm sure that you are aware of these verses. A good example is the one I gave. satan will allow demons to appear to flee from one who is living in sin to re-enforce that person's belief that repentence isn't necessary so that person can influence others. Deliverance requires repentence. No repentence, no deliverance. If that person isn't genuinely repentent, he will soon end up in a far worse state than he previously was. All miracles aren't necessarily from God. Only by the strength of the scriptures can one discern which is from God. Knowledge of the scriptures is important, but so too is having the spiritual gift of discernment which comes from God. Without it you cannot discern what is going on in the spiritual realm. Andy. What you wrote above here shows that you're confused about what "spiritual" means. This last bit has noting to do with the makeup of a man. Even the wickwed have God's spirit/breath of life/power of life in them.
It's you who is confused about what "spiritual" means. It is part of the make-up of Man. Man's spirit is not the Spirit of God. To suggest that is to say that the Holy Spirit of God is wicked, because Man is wicked.
All living things have God's spirit/breath of life/power of life in them.
While it's true that all living things have God's breath in them, that doesn't mean that they have God's Holy Spirit in them. And yes, all life must have energy in it, otherwise it would be dead.
The Breath of life/spirit/power of life is what returns to God when death occurs and the bible makes no distinction between the wicked and the righteous or the animals.
First of all, we have been "created in the image of God" - so that means we're not animals. And secondly, God makes a distinction between the righteous and the unrighteous - the unrighteous go to Hell and the righteous return to Him.
Genesis 2:7 tells us that in order for man to live, God gives us His spirit/breath of life.
God gave each one of us a soul and spirit of our own at the moment of conception.
Before that man is mud.
I wasn't mud. I was a sperm and an egg before I was conceived. ;D
The breath of life/spirit plus the mud equals a living soul. If you separate them, all you have left is what was there originally.
Which is extremely bad news if you've just been cremated. All that remains of you is ash. Resurrection? - forget it! What use is ash to God?!
Jesus nor any apostle ever taught that there was a soul or spirit that lived on after the death of the body.
Really? So His warnings of eternal punishment in Hell for the wicked was just so much hot air? No need for repentance, no need for salvation. Christ's death on the cross was all in vain.
Andy, I used to believe as you until I was shown the truth of what the bible actually says. The first thing you have to get over is the simpkle fact that the phrase "immortal soul" is not found anywhere in the body. The second is that the bioble does say "only God hath immortality".
What if the word "immortal" means an eternally abundant life with Christ? And "eternal" can mean the everlasting destiny of the soul.
Satan has deceived many with has twists on what the bible actually says about things. That's why I maintain the whole bible should be used to get a proper consenus on a subject for proper TEACHINGS and not just a verse here or there. I have no problem with that, but doesn't it also say in the Bible "Lean not on your own understanding"? Be careful that you don't do that!
[/color] Andy.
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Post by I2AM4GOD on Jun 18, 2004 9:13:55 GMT -5
Gene,
How do you know that the folks who have taught you the Holy Scriptures haven't been pulling the wool over your eyes?
Andy.
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Post by genesda on Jun 18, 2004 11:12:32 GMT -5
Gene, How do you know that the folks who have taught you the Holy Scriptures haven't been pulling the wool over your eyes? Andy. Because the scriptures are the teacher, not men. I agree that things are pointed out and questions are answered by using the bible, not men's opinions. The studies in the SDA church are structured so that individual study opens the doors to the truth.
For instance. Col.2:16 says some things that seems to be saying it is alright to disregard the sabbath day. Through proper study it becomes clear that there are other sabbath days besides the commandment sabbath. The commandments were never part of that "which was against us". It was the sacrificial law and it's sabbaths that were a witness against the people. Those sabbaths were what was "nailed to the cross". No one has the authority chop a commandment off of the tablets. The ten commandments are referred to as the "royal law" that man is to be judged by. Rev. 12 (?) tells us that the remnant church is that which keeps the commandments of God. Rev. also says that "doers" of the commandments will have the right to the tree of life. God's tablets are eternal and that's why God spoke those words and then wrote them Himself so there would be no confusion over them. I could go on because the list of reasons why the commandments haven't changed is long, buit I believe I've made the point using the bible, not men to learn why I have the truth in this matter.
Now let's look at this same question from those who believe the commandments have changed. I'm aware of the reasons cited such as the resurrection, new birth, etc., but there are no scriptures connecting the sabbath with any other event besides creation and that God made that ONE DAY holy. The Sunday is a common work day, according to God. God never said to change it if you have a good reason. He never said "one day in seven". He never said it was a "Jewish sabbath." In fact, there is no nation mentioned in the commandment. It is called a sabbath of God, not certain people.
You see, I am not citing a man at all, only the bible teaching on the subject. This is how we study in the SDA study sessions.
Here's another. The "immortal soul". The bible never calls a "soul" immortal. In fact, the bible never speaks of a separate soul that exists apart from the body. The bible teaches that man is moprtal and that he is a living soul, not that he has one. Jesus nor any apostle ever taught such a thing. Now we do know where this false teaching originated. Some Jews went to Greece and studied under the pagans Plato and Aristotle. They learned this lie from them and brought it back to Jerusalem and started teaching this. They fouind itchy ears that were receptive and this lie spread. It's still being taught in the churches today. As I said, we KNOW where this lie originated and it wasn't with the apostles or Jesus or any prophet or other writer of the scriptures. If you wish to cite man as a reason, then I ahve no dispute with you, but the bible clearly doesn't state, indicate, or hint of any change in God's sabbath.
[/color]
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Post by Pietro on Jun 18, 2004 11:46:14 GMT -5
In fact, the bible never speaks of a separate soul that exists apart from the body. [/b][/color][/quote] but you read so selectively. Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. How would it be possible for anyone to kill the body but not the soul if , as you say, the soul is simply some mixture of the body and God's spirit?
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Post by genesda on Jun 18, 2004 11:48:32 GMT -5
If you don't believe in the eternal soul, you cannot believe in salvation, as the two go together. This is a false belief. A "soul" is nothing more than a living being as Genesis 2:7 explains. There is no such thing as a naturally eternal soul. Salvation and the pagan belief of a naturally eternal soul most certainly DON'T go together. If that is the case, then no-one need fear Hell. There's no such thing as eternal punishment, even though it is mentioned in the Bible. Of coursde the wicked will pay for their sins in the lake of fire as the bible says. Why do you insert foolish statements in your posts? [/color] You're contradicting yourself, Gene.I haven't contradicted anything. Where is the contradiction? The bible plainly says that some will be raised to everlasting life and some will be raised to destruction. Raised from where? [/color] When you die, do you simply cease to exist or do you go to your eternal destination? Exactly! one ceases to exist UNTIL the resurrection,. The bible never says anything contrary to this. Nowhere in the Bible is there mention of people ceasing to exist once they have physically died. You and I are more than just flesh and blood - we are also spiritual beings. And how do you explain King Saul talking to the deceased Samuel as mentioned in 1 Samuel, chapter 28? Do you believe witches can bring the dead back to life?
They can, if God allows it. And in this case He allowed it.
There is no example of God allowing any such thing! That would require resurrecting power and only God has that!
Do you believe they "come up" when they are called?
It's possible. No it isn't. The onl;y thing that's possible is Satan's impersonations. [/color] Do you believe witches have supernatural powers and that that particular witch over ruled God? No. But God allowed it.No, He didn't. It's easy to see why you're confused. [/color] After all, the bible also says God refused to answer Saul, so that means a witch could get Samuel to appear after God refused to answer Saul? God isn't Samuel. Samuel was a prophet of God. God answered Saul by allowing the witch to summon Samuel to speak to Saul.God REFUSED Saul!! [/color] No, Samuel didn't appear, it was Satan impersonating Samuel as he so often does to trick those weak in the scriptures. [/b][/color] It doesn't say in the scriptural pkmtyolpage that Satan was impersonating Samuel.Because the witch and Saul were deceived. Why do you think the bible forbids attempts to contact the dead? It's because God is fully aware of Satan's deceptions and man's willingness to accept what their senses tell them is right. Just look at all of the people who think they are seeing Mary around the world right now. [/color] When Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb, Lazarus had no idea of how much time pkmtyolped while he was dead. There is only a short Biblical account of Lazarus being raised from the dead. There is no mention of the conversation afterwards between he and Christ. So we don't know. Right, but don't you think Lazarus would have come out screaming about being called back from heaven or rejoicing being called back from "hell"? Just face the facts we do know as given to us. Lazarus came from the tomb where he was laid. [/color] Why would Lazarus have necessarily "come out screaming" about having been called back from Heaven by his Lord and Master, Jesus Christ? And there is no mention in the scriptural pkmtyolpage that Lazarus had been called back from Hell. Lazarus and his sisters were blessed by the Lord that day.Right, and Lazarus was simply resurrected by Jesus. He wasn't anywhere except in the tomb! That's the point. [/color] Don't you know that angels are spirit beings, not flesh and blood like us? What does this have to do with what we're discussing here? Angels are a different order of being than we. [/color] And angels also have souls (personalities), just like us.NO ONE HAS A SOUL!! Where does the bible say anyone has a soul?? Since you made that claim, where can I read of it? What was the point of Him giving you a mind, will and emotions (soul), without which you would have no personality? Your mind, will and emotions are what makes you a person. But these things aren't your physical body. Of course they are. Without the physical, there would be no mental or spiritual. [/color] The brain is a physical organ, the soul is not. The body is physical, the spirit is not.You've got a hard head. There is no "the soul". You ARE a living soul AS THE BIBLE SAID. [/color] The Satanic counterfeit for healing is not the same as the true healing which comes from God. I believe in a God who heals as well as saves. You're mixing apples and oranges here. Not at all. I say that because satan can bind and loose. [/color] Satan is in the business of binding, not loosing.I disagree. Satan's purpose is to seal the fate of those who refuse to repent and he'll use any method to do that. If it means a temporary healing, that's what he'll do. [/color] The woman who was loosed by Christ - which one are you talking about? If it's the prostitute, Mary Magdalene, He delivered her of demons. She believed and accepted Him as Lord, repented of her sins, was healed and was saved. Yes, and Jesus told her "go and sin no more". Now I have a question for you: do you believe that deliverance from evil spirits is demonic? No, but there is a false deliverance that Satan will use to deceive also. I'll keep an open mind about that. This is very simple to understand. I'll give an example so you'll see what I mean. Let's say that there is a man who constantly indulges in theft, illegal drugs, whores, and cheating people regularly as a lifestyle. This man has a heart attack and is rushed to the hospital. While he is being worked on, he has a near death experience and is shown the "tunnel of light". He starts to go through and is told, "no, not now, I have things for you to do before you can come through". That man is then revived. Do you really think that man will see any need to repent or change his life.
Who knows? - he may very well do. When satan gives a man reason to believe he has no faults that would doom him, why would you think he would ever see a need to repent? Look around today. Do you know anyone comfortable in their sinful ways?
Do you think he'll tell his friends and the friends will see a need to repent?
It's quite possible, if he saw Christ and repented himself. How would he ever see Christ if he sees no need to look? [/color] That's a Satanic deception and an example of Satanic healing. Satan is keeping that man in a lost state while letting him believe he's saved. [/b][/color] You don't know that. You're making an assumption.No, i recognize eveil when I see it. [/color] If so, then please give me the relevant scriptural pkmtyolpages to back up your claim. Andy. Satan will work miracles in the last days, and he will appear as an angel of light. True. I don't have the ch and vs right now, but I'm sure that you are aware of these verses. A good example is the one I gave. satan will allow demons to appear to flee from one who is living in sin to re-enforce that person's belief that repentence isn't necessary so that person can influence others. Deliverance requires repentence. No repentence, no deliverance. If that person isn't genuinely repentent, he will soon end up in a far worse state than he previously was. All miracles aren't necessarily from God. Only by the strength of the scriptures can one discern which is from God. Knowledge of the scriptures is important, but so too is having the spiritual gift of discernment which comes from God. Without it you cannot discern what is going on in the spiritual realm. Andy. What you wrote above here shows that you're confused about what "spiritual" means. This last bit has noting to do with the makeup of a man. Even the wickwed have God's spirit/breath of life/power of life in them.
It's you who is confused about what "spiritual" means. It is part of the make-up of Man. Man's spirit is not the Spirit of God. To suggest that is to say that the Holy Spirit of God is wicked, because Man is wicked. Again, you're mixing apples and oranges.
All living things have God's spirit/breath of life/power of life in them.
While it's true that all living things have God's breath in them, that doesn't mean that they have God's Holy Spirit in them. And yes, all life must have energy in it, otherwise it would be dead. That "energy" you speak of is the spirit of God that sustains life. Breath of life and spirit are interchangable words of the Hebrew original word. [/color] cont
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Post by genesda on Jun 18, 2004 11:49:29 GMT -5
[quote author=I2AM4GOD The Breath of life/spirit/power of life is what returns to God when death occurs and the bible makes no distinction between the wicked and the righteous or the animals.
First of all, we have been "created in the image of God" - so that means we're not animals. I have some bad news for you. Man and animals have the same origin, the udst of the ground. This has nothing to do with man's superority over animals. We all have the same beginning, MUD!
And secondly, God makes a distinction between the righteous and the unrighteous - the unrighteous go to Hell and the righteous return to Him.[/color] Where can I read of this because it isn't biblical. The spirit of all returns to God at death. Again, you're confused by all of this. That's why you need to have proper study. [/color]
Genesis 2:7 tells us that in order for man to live, God gives us His spirit/breath of life.
God gave each one of us a soul and spirit of our own at the moment of conception. No He didn't This is a pagan lie and not biblical. [/color]
Before that man is mud.
I wasn't mud. I was a sperm and an egg before I was conceived. ;D What do you become after you die and are buried? [/color]
The breath of life/spirit plus the mud equals a living soul. If you separate them, all you have left is what was there originally.
Which is extremely bad news if you've just been cremated. All that remains of you is ash. Resurrection? - forget it! What use is ash to God?! You have no idea of the power of God or what he can do. [/color]
Jesus nor any apostle ever taught that there was a soul or spirit that lived on after the death of the body.
Really? So His warnings of eternal punishment in Hell for the wicked was just so much hot air? No need for repentance, no need for salvation. Christ's death on the cross was all in vain. I never said any such thing. These are conclusions you've jumped to. [/color]
Andy, I used to believe as you until I was shown the truth of what the bible actually says. The first thing you have to get over is the simpkle fact that the phrase "immortal soul" is not found anywhere in the body. The second is that the bioble does say "only God hath immortality".
What if the word "immortal" means an eternally abundant life with Christ? And "eternal" can mean the everlasting destiny of the soul. There you are with that "the soul" again.Immortal means "without end" Eternal means "without end". It all depends on the context of the words. Sometimes "eternal" doesn't mean without end. The translators did a good job, but not a perfect one. [/color]
Satan has deceived many with has twists on what the bible actually says about things. That's why I maintain the whole bible should be used to get a proper consenus on a subject for proper TEACHINGS and not just a verse here or there. I have no problem with that, but doesn't it also say in the Bible "Lean not on your own understanding"? Be careful that you don't do that!
[/b][/color]
Andy. Be back Monday.
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Post by I2AM4GOD on Jun 19, 2004 5:36:13 GMT -5
Gene,
It's interesting that you didn't answer Pietro's post concerning the body and the soul:
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Hell."
Thanks Pietro. I look forward to your answer on Monday, Gene.
Andy.
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Post by I2AM4GOD on Jun 19, 2004 6:14:49 GMT -5
Satan will work miracles in the last days, and he will appear as an angel of light. True. I don't have the ch and vs right now, but I'm sure that you are aware of these verses. A good example is the one I gave. satan will allow demons to appear to flee from one who is living in sin to re-enforce that person's belief that repentence isn't necessary so that person can influence others. Deliverance requires repentence. No repentence, no deliverance. If that person isn't genuinely repentent, he will soon end up in a far worse state than he previously was. All miracles aren't necessarily from God. Only by the strength of the scriptures can one discern which is from God. Knowledge of the scriptures is important, but so too is having the spiritual gift of discernment which comes from God. Without it you cannot discern what is going on in the spiritual realm. Andy. What you wrote above here shows that you're confused about what "spiritual" means. This last bit has noting to do with the makeup of a man. Even the wickwed have God's spirit/breath of life/power of life in them.
It's you who is confused about what "spiritual" means. It is part of the make-up of Man. Man's spirit is not the Spirit of God. To suggest that is to say that the Holy Spirit of God is wicked, because Man is wicked. Again, you're mixing apples and oranges.
No, I'm thinking clearly and pointing out to you where you are going wrong.
All living things have God's spirit/breath of life/power of life in them.
While it's true that all living things have God's breath in them, that doesn't mean that they have God's Holy Spirit in them. And yes, all life must have energy in it, otherwise it would be dead. That "energy" you speak of is the spirit of God that sustains life. Breath of life and spirit are interchangable words of the Hebrew original word. [/color] I prefer the words "breath of life". And while it is true that all spirits originally came from God, it isn't the case that they will all go back to him. Satan and his angels are spirits, but God is not going to welcome them back into his Kingdom.Andy.
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Post by I2AM4GOD on Jun 19, 2004 7:00:32 GMT -5
[quote author=I2AM4GOD The Breath of life/spirit/power of life is what returns to God when death occurs and the bible makes no distinction between the wicked and the righteous or the animals. First of all, we have been "created in the image of God" - so that means we're not animals. I have some bad news for you. Man and animals have the same origin, the udst of the ground. This has nothing to do with man's superority over animals. We all have the same beginning, MUD! While it is true that God's original creation was created from "mud" as you put it, that doesn't alter the fact that God has created us "in His image", to rule over the animals and care for them. Remember, it is we who have wilfully sinned against our Creator. Jesus Christ came into the world, in our likeness, to die on the cross, so that by faith in Him we can be reconciled to our Father in Heaven. And secondly, God makes a distinction between the righteous and the unrighteous - the unrighteous go to Hell and the righteous return to Him. [/color] Where can I read of this because it isn't biblical. The spirit of all returns to God at death.
It isn't Biblical to you because of what you have been taught. The spirits of the saved return to God, not the spirits of the wicked, otherwise Hell is irrelevant.
Again, you're confused by all of this. That's why you need to have proper study. [/color] And being confused yourself, you assume this about me.Genesis 2:7 tells us that in order for man to live, God gives us His spirit/breath of life. God gave each one of us a soul and spirit of our own at the moment of conception.No He didn't This is a pagan lie and not biblical. [/color] And this is true for you, as it's what you have been taught. Before that man is mud. I wasn't mud. I was a sperm and an egg before I was conceived. ;D What do you become after you die and are buried? [/color] My physical body turns to dust. Really, Gene, you shouldn't have needed to ask me that question! You did know, didn't you?The breath of life/spirit plus the mud equals a living soul. If you separate them, all you have left is what was there originally. Which is extremely bad news if you've just been cremated. All that remains of you is ash. Resurrection? - forget it! What use is ash to God?!You have no idea of the power of God or what he can do. [/color] Really, Gene, you can do much better than to make an untrue statement of that nature. I am well aware of what God can do and has done. I see the evidence of his handiwork every day - His Creation! But, unlike you, I choose to use my brain to understand what people are telling me. I don't believe in brainlessly taking in everything I'm told. Much of what I'm told I reject, but not everything.Jesus nor any apostle ever taught that there was a soul or spirit that lived on after the death of the body. Really? So His warnings of eternal punishment in Hell for the wicked was just so much hot air? No need for repentance, no need for salvation. Christ's death on the cross was all in vain.I never said any such thing. These are conclusions you've jumped to. [/color] Conclusions drawn from what you're saying.Andy, I used to believe as you until I was shown the truth of what the bible actually says. The first thing you have to get over is the simpkle fact that the phrase "immortal soul" is not found anywhere in the body. The second is that the bioble does say "only God hath immortality". What if the word "immortal" means an eternally abundant life with Christ? And "eternal" can mean the everlasting destiny of the soul.There you are with that "the soul" again.Immortal means "without end" Eternal means "without end". It all depends on the context of the words. Sometimes "eternal" doesn't mean without end. The translators did a good job, but not a perfect one. [/color] Oh, I love this. Now you are saying that you know better than the translators of the Holy Scriptures. And, according to you, the word "eternal" doesn't mean "without end".Satan has deceived many with has twists on what the bible actually says about things. That's why I maintain the whole bible should be used to get a proper consenus on a subject for proper TEACHINGS and not just a verse here or there. I have no problem with that, but doesn't it also say in the Bible "Lean not on your own understanding"? Be careful that you don't do that![/b][/color] Andy. Be back Monday. I look forward to seeing you then.
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Post by I2AM4GOD on Jun 19, 2004 7:08:43 GMT -5
If you don't believe in the eternal soul, you cannot believe in salvation, as the two go together. This is a false belief. A "soul" is nothing more than a living being as Genesis 2:7 explains. There is no such thing as a naturally eternal soul. Salvation and the pagan belief of a naturally eternal soul most certainly DON'T go together. If that is the case, then no-one need fear Hell. There's no such thing as eternal punishment, even though it is mentioned in the Bible. Of coursde the wicked will pay for their sins in the lake of fire as the bible says. Why do you insert foolish statements in your posts? [/color] You're contradicting yourself, Gene.I haven't contradicted anything. Where is the contradiction? The bible plainly says that some will be raised to everlasting life and some will be raised to destruction. Raised from where? [/color] Saying that the soul literally ceases to exist at the point of death, only to somehow rematerialize out of thin air as if by magic, to be judged by God, is a contradictory claim. The soul that appears after death cannot be the same one that ceased to exist after death. And so why would God judge the innocent soul that now exists for the sins of the wicked soul that no longer exists? That doesn't make sense to me! Surely the soul that no longer exists has already been punished by God. And the two souls are not one and the same. Once something ceases to exist, you can't bring it back, even if you are God!When you die, do you simply cease to exist or do you go to your eternal destination? Exactly! one ceases to exist UNTIL the resurrection,. The bible never says anything contrary to this. Nowhere in the Bible is there mention of people ceasing to exist once they have physically died. You and I are more than just flesh and blood - we are also spiritual beings. And how do you explain King Saul talking to the deceased Samuel as mentioned in 1 Samuel, chapter 28? Do you believe witches can bring the dead back to life?
They can, if God allows it. And in this case He allowed it.
There is no example of God allowing any such thing! That would require resurrecting power and only God has that!
Do you believe they "come up" when they are called?
It's possible. No it isn't. The onl;y thing that's possible is Satan's impersonations. [/color] Do you believe witches have supernatural powers and that that particular witch over ruled God? No. But God allowed it.No, He didn't. It's easy to see why you're confused. [/color] Knowing what God can do and allows to happen is not the same as being confused, my friend. After all, the bible also says God refused to answer Saul, so that means a witch could get Samuel to appear after God refused to answer Saul? God isn't Samuel. Samuel was a prophet of God. God answered Saul by allowing the witch to summon Samuel to speak to Saul.God REFUSED Saul!! [/color] No, Samuel didn't appear, it was Satan impersonating Samuel as he so often does to trick those weak in the scriptures. [/b][/color] It doesn't say in the scriptural pkmtyolpage that Satan was impersonating Samuel.Because the witch and Saul were deceived. Why do you think the bible forbids attempts to contact the dead? It's because God is fully aware of Satan's deceptions and man's willingness to accept what their senses tell them is right. Just look at all of the people who think they are seeing Mary around the world right now. [/color] Why don't you give your obsession with Mary a rest?When Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb, Lazarus had no idea of how much time pkmtyolped while he was dead. There is only a short Biblical account of Lazarus being raised from the dead. There is no mention of the conversation afterwards between he and Christ. So we don't know. Right, but don't you think Lazarus would have come out screaming about being called back from heaven or rejoicing being called back from "hell"? Just face the facts we do know as given to us. Lazarus came from the tomb where he was laid. [/color] Why would Lazarus have necessarily "come out screaming" about having been called back from Heaven by his Lord and Master, Jesus Christ? And there is no mention in the scriptural pkmtyolpage that Lazarus had been called back from Hell. Lazarus and his sisters were blessed by the Lord that day.Right, and Lazarus was simply resurrected by Jesus.
That's correct. Lazarus was resurrected by Christ.
He wasn't anywhere except in the tomb! That's the point. [/color] His body was in the tomb to begin with, until Christ raised him from death.Don't you know that angels are spirit beings, not flesh and blood like us? What does this have to do with what we're discussing here? Angels are a different order of being than we. [/color] And angels also have souls (personalities), just like us.NO ONE HAS A SOUL!! Where does the bible say anyone has a soul?? Since you made that claim, where can I read of it? What was the point of Him giving you a mind, will and emotions (soul), without which you would have no personality? Your mind, will and emotions are what makes you a person. But these things aren't your physical body. Of course they are. Without the physical, there would be no mental or spiritual. [/color] The brain is a physical organ, the soul is not. The body is physical, the spirit is not.You've got a hard head. There is no "the soul". You ARE a living soul AS THE BIBLE SAID. [/color] The Satanic counterfeit for healing is not the same as the true healing which comes from God. I believe in a God who heals as well as saves. You're mixing apples and oranges here. Not at all. I say that because satan can bind and loose. [/color] Satan is in the business of binding, not loosing.I disagree. Satan's purpose is to seal the fate of those who refuse to repent and he'll use any method to do that. If it means a temporary healing, that's what he'll do. [/color] You can believe this lie as much as you like. Satan binds, he doesn't set the captive free! Andy.
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Post by Pietro on Jun 19, 2004 8:38:37 GMT -5
Gene, It's interesting that you didn't answer Pietro's post concerning the body and the soul: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Hell." Thanks Pietro. I look forward to your answer on Monday, Gene. Andy. Also, in light of Revelations: Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. Both texts speak of the living souls of people who have died. How could one see the soul of someone beheaded if the soul is the combination of flesh and spirit as Genesda claims? Does God have headless people sitting on thrones? And this vision is before the final resurrection so it is not like he is seeing these souls after their bodies had been resurrected. And then ther is Luke: Luke 16:22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' and Paul 2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know–God knows. Paul may not know but Genesda would claim it must have been in the body. I suggest that what is going on here is a development. Much of the Old Testament speaks of the soul as Genesda maintains and the dead are just plain dead. But then some of the latter psalms and prophets, especially Isaiah, speak of a survival of death. By the time of the New Testament survival of physical death is a slam dunk. Genesda will say such thinking is a contamination of pagan Greek philosophy. It seems more reasonable to look at it as maturation just as the Gosepl of John takes the concept of Logos from pagan Greek philosphy and gives it new meaning in application to Christ. In the same way even before the time of Jesus jews were beginning to reflect on their theology and anthropology with Greek concepts. That paved the way for the eventual spread of Christianity. Had not the early Christians attempted to speak of Christ borrowing Greek philosophical concepts and interpreting the meaning of the incarnation that way we would have gotten no where. But the Greek influence is already seen in the Gospels, Epistles and Revelation as well as the Deuterocanonical Apocrypha.
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