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Post by Kee on Jan 3, 2004 17:24:34 GMT -5
Just glancing your other comments here a little too, k8, let me add,
you can quote scripture all day, point to this remark or that remark as your proof. The thing is when it doesn't match up to what is real about people, the only ones who believe what you will accept as evidence are the ones who WANT to be convinced.
Basically it is lying to yourself in my opinion.
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Post by k8reader on Jan 3, 2004 17:50:13 GMT -5
Just glancing your other comments here a little too, k8, let me add, you can quote scripture all day, point to this remark or that remark as your proof. The thing is when it doesn't match up to what is real about people, the only ones who believe what you will accept as evidence are the ones who WANT to be convinced. Basically it is lying to yourself in my opinion. Kee, I didn't quote scripture to proove anything to you. I was trying to promote understanding, tolerance and harmony! You seemed to take SW's comments personally. I didn't see them that way. In addition, I saw your comments as an attack (just like Michael). I generally like to know when I've been misunderstood (It happens all the time!) Next time, I'll just mind my own business
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Post by michaeldark on Jan 3, 2004 23:59:28 GMT -5
Yeah,but it's hard to find the silver lining anymore. I was refering to the environment too,the life in general sums it up as well. We've taken this once green and lush earthy and turned it into pollution and crap. We've forced so much to die,just to suit our "needs". Thats the main reason I did my sting in Wicca. The Catholic and Christian churches don't seem to give a dang about the Environment,but the Wiccans worship and revere it. The Earth is God's first true daughter and we've treated her in our 6,000 years on her with less and less dignity every year. And then to make it sadder,there are people even in the highest ranks of our government that want to undermine her even more. It saddens and sickens me. You see my point then, Michael. I stopped watching the news..except perhaps for the weather and the traffic, which in my town can be bad..the traffic that is. But, don't you see? If you focus constantly on what is negative, what is depressing...that is where you will be also. There are 5 members in my family. Three of them are always looking at the problems and adversity that comes. They are not generally happy people. My oldest son and I tend to look for the solution..the end that is in sight..and we are generally happy people. That's not to say I don't get down. I do. And usually when I come out the other side, I am much stronger for it with new insights that will simply amaze me. Each step through the valley takes me closer to the next mountaintop...but to reach each succeeding mountaintop, you have to go through each valley. Stop looking at the cloud, Michael. Look deeper into it. Find the silver lining...its there and you can see it. You just have to look past the darkness of the cloud. Blessings and Love to you! Shirley
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Post by heathen76 on Jan 4, 2004 2:42:32 GMT -5
Yeah,but it's hard to find the silver lining anymore. I was refering to the environment too,the life in general sums it up as well. We've taken this once green and lush earthy and turned it into pollution and crap. We've forced so much to die,just to suit our "needs". Thats the main reason I did my sting in Wicca. The Catholic and Christian churches don't seem to give a dang about the Environment,but the Wiccans worship and revere it. The Earth is God's first true daughter and we've treated her in our 6,000 years on her with less and less dignity every year. And then to make it sadder,there are people even in the highest ranks of our government that want to undermine her even more. It saddens and sickens me. Hey Mike - Two things: 1.) The environment is not as bad as you may think. This "old girl" that we all live on is an amazingly resilient lady. She will be just fine. 2.) Environmental protection, research, and understanding is getting stronger all the time. I am an environmental engineer, and I can tell you that clean technologies are getting more advanced all the time. Want to help out? Stop electing people that insist that petroleum products are the best way to go. Have a great weekend!
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Post by Shirley on Jan 4, 2004 8:55:02 GMT -5
Yeah,but it's hard to find the silver lining anymore. I was refering to the environment too,the life in general sums it up as well. We've taken this once green and lush earthy and turned it into pollution and crap. We've forced so much to die,just to suit our "needs". Thats the main reason I did my sting in Wicca. The Catholic and Christian churches don't seem to give a dang about the Environment,but the Wiccans worship and revere it. The Earth is God's first true daughter and we've treated her in our 6,000 years on her with less and less dignity every year. And then to make it sadder,there are people even in the highest ranks of our government that want to undermine her even more. It saddens and sickens me. It is there Michael. But yes, you have to look for it. Life, all life is more sturdy than you give it credit for. I see it in my own plants...I'm terrible with plants. I forget them outside when it freezes..I forget to water them..but as soon as I do, as soon as I take the time to give them just a small amount of care...they bounce right back.. As heathen mentioned...there is hope..gaia is stronger than you think. She will bounce back. To help, why not go into a field and become part of the solution? Instead of crying over it, give it a little care and time..
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Post by michaeldark on Jan 4, 2004 13:36:47 GMT -5
It is there Michael. But yes, you have to look for it. Life, all life is more sturdy than you give it credit for. I see it in my own plants...I'm terrible with plants. I forget them outside when it freezes..I forget to water them..but as soon as I do, as soon as I take the time to give them just a small amount of care...they bounce right back.. As heathen mentioned...there is hope..gaia is stronger than you think. She will bounce back. To help, why not go into a field and become part of the solution? Instead of crying over it, give it a little care and time.. But what about Bush scaling back over 200 evironmental laws,and all the fools has as his environmental advisers,half of them having ties to the petroleum industry(you can learn alot from Rolling Stone magazine),or him appointing the governor of New Jersey the head of the EPA? How can scientists and sych do their job if the government is just going to do everything to underplay their efforts? Or anbout Bush saying there's no Global Warming,despite all the evidence for it? I know Gaia is strong,but I'm not sure if she can last if society as a collective doesn't open their eyes.(as you can tell,I do feel strongly about this) I also can't do anything to change it yet since I'm only 17. And my birthday will come about 3 weeks AFTER the next election.
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Post by michaeldark on Jan 4, 2004 13:37:19 GMT -5
It is there Michael. But yes, you have to look for it. Life, all life is more sturdy than you give it credit for. I see it in my own plants...I'm terrible with plants. I forget them outside when it freezes..I forget to water them..but as soon as I do, as soon as I take the time to give them just a small amount of care...they bounce right back.. As heathen mentioned...there is hope..gaia is stronger than you think. She will bounce back. To help, why not go into a field and become part of the solution? Instead of crying over it, give it a little care and time.. But what about Bush scaling back over 200 evironmental laws,and all the fools has as his environmental advisers,half of them having ties to the petroleum industry(you can learn alot from Rolling Stone magazine),or him appointing the governor of New Jersey the head of the EPA? How can scientists and sych do their job if the government is just going to do everything to underplay their efforts? Or anbout Bush saying there's no Global Warming,despite all the evidence for it? I know Gaia is strong,but I'm not sure if she can last if society as a collective doesn't open their eyes.(as you can tell,I do feel strongly about this) I also can't do anything to change it yet since I'm only 17. And my birthday will come about 3 weeks AFTER the next election.
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Post by heathen76 on Jan 4, 2004 14:36:54 GMT -5
But what about Bush scaling back over 200 evironmental laws,and all the fools has as his environmental advisers,half of them having ties to the petroleum industry(you can learn alot from Rolling Stone magazine),or him appointing the governor of New Jersey the head of the EPA? How can scientists and sych do their job if the government is just going to do everything to underplay their efforts? Or anbout Bush saying there's no Global Warming,despite all the evidence for it? I know Gaia is strong,but I'm not sure if she can last if society as a collective doesn't open their eyes.(as you can tell,I do feel strongly about this) I also can't do anything to change it yet since I'm only 17. And my birthday will come about 3 weeks AFTER the next election. Mike- Believe it or not, the US environmental laws are actually much more stringent than most of the world's laws. The EPA director actually doesn't really determine what EPA works on so much as just administrate it. Environmental policy comes from the feds. EPA also spends a lot of time doing research in various areas. Right now, a lot of the focus is on homeland security issues (I work at EPA indirectly). The world will be a cleaner place by the time you are an old man, Mike. I guarantee it.
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Post by Kee on Jan 4, 2004 14:51:03 GMT -5
Kee, I didn't quote scripture to proove anything to you. I was trying to promote understanding, tolerance and harmony! You seemed to take SW's comments personally. I didn't see them that way. In addition, I saw your comments as an attack (just like Michael). I generally like to know when I've been misunderstood (It happens all the time!) Next time, I'll just mind my own business k8, Quite honestly I haven't had enough time to read all of your post, but I will get back to them as soon as I can. Still, my point is the same and I'll get back to that in a minute. Now, if you and Michael consider my challenging the validity of beliefs as attacking, then you both should examine within yourself why that is. Back to my position of the presumptions being made here. Namely those are: that Satan is out there deceiving the world into believing differently than you do, that it's God's grand scheme to have Armegeddon, and that Christians leave this religion because they were never Christians in the first place. The reasons people believe as they do are as many and as varied as there are people with experiences. Whereas some will look up scripture they feel supports what THEY believe about other people and this world, I on the other hand will look to the individuals and inquire as to what it is they themself believe. Why it is they believe what they do. You look to a book for explanation, and I look to the person. You can point to scripture to promote understanding of you and what you believe, and that is perfectly fine. But the thing is.... We are not talking about YOU here. We are talking about non-Christians and what THEY believe, and Shirley too. Unless you are them or HER, then your belief is just that -- YOURS. You understand the difference here?
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Post by k8reader on Jan 4, 2004 20:05:41 GMT -5
Now, if you and Michael consider my challenging the validity of beliefs as attacking, then you both should examine within yourself why that is. It was more the wording and Language you used that I found attacking. If you think I need to look into myself more, then I will certainly do that. Here is the crux of the problem right here. Those things that you call "presumptions" come from somewhere other then our hats. I could call your belief that " The reasons people believe as they do are as many and as varied as there are people with experiences." a "presumption" from my perspective. You said we were just lying to ourselves, when in fact our ideas don't come from ourselves. We don't make up our beliefs, they come from the Bible. So, it is, at best inaccurate to call our beliefs “presumptions”. Some scripture that supports what I believe? It can't get much clearer. We believe it because Jesus CLEARLY says that people will be deceived. Jesus CLEARLY says that some claim to be Christians who He never knew. I don't understand why you aren't completely and utterly amazed that this and every issue IS addressed by scripture. What an amazing, amazing Book. No, I don't understand. You are not making sense here. Are you saying that we can only address the scriptures to understand other Christians? That would be a very limited use of God's Word, wouldn't it? We use God's Word to understand EVERYONE and EVERYTHING. INCLUDING why some people leave Christianity. If you agree that the words of Jesus in Mark 4:14-20 are an explanation of why some people leave Christianity; and the words of Jesus in Matt. 24:10-12 also describes Christians leaving the faith because they have been deceived - then you were wrong to say that Son Worshipper was "playing God and judging other hearts". Your disagreement is with Jesus. He DID “play” God and judge people’s hearts.
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Post by Kee on Jan 5, 2004 1:14:18 GMT -5
Here is the crux of the problem right here. Those things that you call "presumptions" come from somewhere other then our hats. I could call your belief that " The reasons people believe as they do are as many and as varied as there are people with experiences." a "presumption" from my perspective. You said we were just lying to ourselves, when in fact our ideas don't come from ourselves. We don't make up our beliefs, they come from the Bible. So, it is, at best inaccurate to call our beliefs “presumptions”. I only have time for one quick comment. It doesn't matter where they come from if they don't match reality.
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Post by SonWorshiper on Jan 5, 2004 12:36:24 GMT -5
Greetings k8reader!
I just want to thank you for your wise and humble posts in regards to kee's perception of what happened between us in the past.
Indeed, in the past, I have challenged her on the sincerity of her supposed unconditional love. My comments were spawned during a time of great spiritual warfare on the original LBMB. kee was boasting of her great, unconditional love for everyone, and I commented that her "love" was cankered and motheaten, because the same hatred she is now showing toward me, was being aimed at other Christians at that MB back then.
She has never been able to let go of this, and brings it up every chance she gets.
There's another reason kee has such anomosity toward me. You see, kee loves to portray herself as a former Christian who has graduated or moved up to a higher echelon of spiritual enlightenment. By claiming to have already been a Christian (and finding it lacking), she can elevate herself to a position of superiority over us ignorant, unlearned, and unenlightened Christians, and even attempts to use her past "Christianity" to prove its falseness in dealing with those who may be looking for truth.
By exposing the fact that she was never a true Christian to begin with she no longer has her favorite weapon to use against Christianity, which is: "I've already been a Christian and found out it isn't true."
And by this revelation (that although she may have experienced the religion of Christianity, she never experienced The Life Of The Lord Jesus Christ inside her), she can no longer tout herself as a former Christian who has evolved into a much higher spiritual being, one that has grown too mature for the simpleton beliefs of Christianity.
The fact that she has never experienced true Christianity means she is simply like every other deceived non-Christian out there, one who has never experienced The Glorious Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ.
People have two choices when being exposed by the light of the truth. They can hate the messenger (as Herod's wife did when John exposed their marriage as adulterous). Or, they can be like King David and humble themselves when the prophet proclaims, "Thou art the man."
I think it's pretty obvious which route kee has chosen.
Anway, you are doing an incredible job of defending the truth of Jesus Christ, and am learning a great deal from you. May you continue to walk in The Wonderful Spirit of The Lord Jesus Christ!
YBIC, SonWorshiper
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Post by marysia on Jan 5, 2004 14:54:04 GMT -5
Mike- Believe it or not, the US environmental laws are actually much more stringent than most of the world's laws. The EPA director actually doesn't really determine what EPA works on so much as just administrate it. Environmental policy comes from the feds. EPA also spends a lot of time doing research in various areas. Right now, a lot of the focus is on homeland security issues (I work at EPA indirectly). The world will be a cleaner place by the time you are an old man, Mike. I guarantee it. amen to that -- it WILL be cleaner - however i feel it's based upon the little "we the people" - not the big companies. thank goodness for the right to know laws/act. living outside detroit michigan you would be amazed how many people die of cancer or are plagued with it but are able to beat it. at one facility in particular -- 34 people in one year died from the same form of cancer -- hmmmmmmm. fortunately there was a group of "local yokals" that started a group to bring this to light and take action. heck we used to play in the "labraya tar pits" they were really checmical dumping grounds but didn't know! the dumping of carious toxins and carcinogens into the various streams and creeks which then dump into the detroit river adn then into the great lakes and so on was deplorable! again, local citizens action groups (no lawyers or big honcho's) lead by a teacher have called various "comapnies" on the carpet for their emissions. fortuantely many of us are becoming more and more aware and taking at least little steps. when i moved into my new neighborhood my mom colledted everyones addresses and called in our recycle bin requests. believe me if she comes over on a thursday night and doesn't see your bin in use and recyclables in the trash for too long the greed has taken charge of the earth, fortunately there is a new greed coming into play and that's the greed of those who enjoy nature and all it has to offer.
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Post by Kee on Jan 5, 2004 20:21:17 GMT -5
Greetings k8reader! I just want to thank you for your wise and humble posts in regards to kee's perception of what happened between us in the past. Indeed, in the past, I have challenged her on the sincerity of her supposed unconditional love. My comments were spawned during a time of great spiritual warfare on the original LBMB. kee was boasting of her great, unconditional love for everyone, and I commented that her "love" was cankered and motheaten, because the same hatred she is now showing toward me, was being aimed at other Christians at that MB back then. Oh goodie, I'll give ya half credit for personal responsibility in fessing up just a little bit. Now if ya really want to be truthful in full, what you'll admit is the warfare was because you and others were frankly ticked off at your brothers and sisters who didn't mind coming forward and telling you there was no reason to be hateful to the heathens. That's the crux of what your spiritual warfare was all about Lam. I see you haven't changed a speck, even though you hide it a little better and act really slick about it. And k8 as I said in the SW's other thread -- I know very well just who he was talking about. Does it matter? Shouldn't. ;D
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Post by Kee on Jan 5, 2004 20:35:26 GMT -5
She has never been able to let go of this, and brings it up every chance she gets. There's another reason kee has such anomosity toward me. You see, kee loves to portray herself as a former Christian who has graduated or moved up to a higher echelon of spiritual enlightenment. By claiming to have already been a Christian (and finding it lacking), she can elevate herself to a position of superiority over us ignorant, unlearned, and unenlightened Christians, and even attempts to use her past "Christianity" to prove its falseness in dealing with those who may be looking for truth. By exposing the fact that she was never a true Christian to begin with she no longer has her favorite weapon to use against Christianity, which is: "I've already been a Christian and found out it isn't true." And by this revelation (that although she may have experienced the religion of Christianity, she never experienced The Life Of The Lord Jesus Christ inside her), she can no longer tout herself as a former Christian who has evolved into a much higher spiritual being, one that has grown too mature for the simpleton beliefs of Christianity. The fact that she has never experienced true Christianity means she is simply like every other deceived non-Christian out there, one who has never experienced The Glorious Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ. People have two choices when being exposed by the light of the truth. They can hate the messenger (as Herod's wife did when John exposed their marriage as adulterous). Or, they can be like King David and humble themselves when the prophet proclaims, "Thou art the man." I think it's pretty obvious which route kee has chosen. Anway, you are doing an incredible job of defending the truth of Jesus Christ, and am learning a great deal from you. May you continue to walk in The Wonderful Spirit of The Lord Jesus Christ! YBIC, SonWorshiper Oh good, wonderful! You have just done an excellent job of proving every point I brought up earlier. SW, God's gift to humanity in judgment of other's hearts, ergo mine. You covered it ALL hon ;D Fantastic!!! It's all here....yep, from claiming I was never really a Christian to carrying your banner of Jesus Christ as the power to let ya do it, that was darn spectacular of you. I never dreamed you'd open mouth and insert your foot so darn well. ;D ;D ;D ;D And you wonder why people don't believe what you do? Get a clue.
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