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Post by Shirley on Dec 27, 2003 8:53:31 GMT -5
Its been averted...those prophecies won't be fulfilled...
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Post by SonWorshiper on Dec 31, 2003 12:06:07 GMT -5
Deception is running amuck in these last days. The Lord Jesus Christ foretold of these days in Matthew 24. The world cannot help but be deceived. It has no truth to fight with.
But what about people in the church? Why do people who have spent years in the Christian religion come to a point in their lives when it doesn't make sense any more and end up rejecting the Bible as truth?
The answer to this is quite simple. First, we must separate those who know Jesus intimately through The Holy Spirit, and those who are simply partakers of the religion of Christianity.
The first group of people have received salvation as a "little child," given the Gift of The Holy Spirit, and the resurrected life of The Lord Jesus Christ is manifested in them. Their relationship with God is far more than just ink written on a Bible page. For these people, The Lord Jesus Christ has been illuminated in them and manifest in them through His Spirit and confirmed by His Word. They literally have a relationship with The Living, Loving Saviour!
The second group of people, although very churchy, never experienced true conversion. They only experienced the religion of Christianity. Millions fit into this mold today.
These people are trying to live and believe in The Lord through their carnal mind. They have doubts, they have questions. They have things that pop up that have no reasoning or logic. Eventually, because they do not possess The Spirit of Truth, deception sets in, and they reject The God of The Bible and Christianity as a whole.
These people were never Christian to begin with. Yes, they were members of a church or denomination, but they never experienced The Life of Christ in them, for if they had, they could never come to the conclusion that Jesus Christ is not the resurrected Saviour that He is. I mean, how could they? If they had a relationship with The Lord Jesus Christ all these years, how could they eventually come to the conclusion that He's no longer alive in their hearts today?
Yes, indeed, The Bible says the spirit of deception would be strong in these last days. II Thessalonians 2:10-12 says this:
"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be ***ed, who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
Jesus Christ died for our sins and is alive forever more! This is "the love of the truth," and acceptance of His finishing work on The Cross is the only thing that can save us.
Church membership cannot bring about true, spiritual conversion. Neither can water baptism, infant baptism, good works, communion, or any other ceremony or ritual.
Many people, including those in the church, will succomb to spiritual deception in these last days. Only those who have experienced true conversion through a relationship with The Living, Loving Saviour through The Holy Spirit, will be spared this deception.
Come to The Lord Jesus Christ and experience His wonderful life inside you! The religion of Christianity can never give life. But a true relationship with The Lord Jesus Christ can!
In His Service, SonWorshiper
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Post by k8reader on Jan 1, 2004 11:51:42 GMT -5
Its been averted...those prophecies won't be fulfilled... Hi SJudy, I'm confused. What as been "averted", and by who? Are you under the impression that somehow humanity controls God's will? Why are you so convinced of the preterist interpretation of prophesy? Why not the pre-trib premillennialism, post-trib premillennialism, postmillennialism or (the most widely accepted) amillennialism? To me, so many different ideas about the end times just underscores the truth of Jesus' words when He said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
(Mark 13:32) If God, the Son did not have the hour, why would you believe any of us do? The fact that the proponents of each theological stance so vehemently defend their position causes me to see pride behind the theology as much as anything else. You must see beyond theology and ask if those of differing views then rejected Christ because they believe He already returned. No they didn't. Do you know why? Because Jesus Christ is real. He makes a difference in your life every day. So, no matter if we face a rapture, a tribulation, a transformation or just plain death with no physical return of Christ, we still have Him in our lives now, every day. We know that when we die we will meet Him face to face. Personally, I do not follow the preterist position because the Bible says that Jesus will return, and everyone will see Him. The Bible says that there will be a new heaven and a new earth, and that the old order of things will be gone. The Bible says that Satan will be destroyed. I don't believe that Satan has been destroyed, there is too much evidence of his existence. That is just my view. You are welcome to believe whatever you want. If you believe the preterist view is true, then how do you explain the last two chapters of the Revelation? How do you explain Matt. 24:30-33? The preterist focuses so much on Matt. 24:34, and that is understandable except that the Greek word used for generation means : the period of a person's: age, generation, NATION, or TIME. How can one know which was mean? I don't know, but only the Father in Heaven, so it makes no difference. I agree with what SonWorshiper and Ben, and many others have said. You still have a choice. But don't choose to avoid some tribulation. Choose because Jesus is the Truth.
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Post by Kee on Jan 1, 2004 16:54:12 GMT -5
funda Deception is running amuck in these last days. The Lord Jesus Christ foretold of these days in Matthew 24. The world cannot help but be deceived. It has no truth to fight with. Truth? Leave it to a Fundamentalist to try and imply that facts are something other than facts. I always find it so amusing when Christians on these boards feel this need to present themselves as some authority on the lives and thoughts of people they don't even know. I am sure this may be convincing for those individuals who must rationalize and provide themselves with some fabricated explanation for what they can't understand. However, don't expect that strategy to have any credibility with anyone else. Any person with reasonable intelligence would expect you to at least use a little common sense here. That means you should be able to comprehend that making up your own reasons (or spouting off some erroneous tenet you've been taught) is never going to do anything more than expose this kind of doctrine for the false belief that it is. As for the supposed end days prophecy, the problem is that Christ obviously didn't realize the world would continue another 2,000 years, and is still going strong mind you. Thus his reportedly making a remark about the way it WAS and IS with respect to religion, that is to say that other beliefs DO and have ALWAYS existed for MILLENNIA, shows it to not be a prophecy at all, or a failed one. Most anything you choose to complain about in human beings, or civilizations for that matter, has been complained about and said to be proof of the end days in the very same way for thousands and thousands of years. This hasn't changed and it certainly is nothing new. Sorry SW, but history does refute both you and your beliefs. No Sonworshipper, the vast majority of the human race will not agree to materializing your visions of Armageddon. Society has just grown too sophisticated to believe in or want to create this fairy-tale ending. These myths may have worked back when mankind thought the earth was the center of the universe. But, the religious myth that sustained such notions can no longer be held. Think of how things were spoken about without the knowledge of our universe that we now possess. Joshua stopped both the sun and the moon to have time to finish a slaughter? We are to believe that God handed this down but couldn't get the facts right? The ancient man of the Bible looked up and the sky and believed that the Earth and the heavens were divided. Modern man can now look at Earth from space. Earthrise - Apollo 8/NASA What we see is that Earth is IN the heavens. There are so many other examples. Next time you want to present an argument about why people don't agree the Bible is accurate or literal, you might try choosing one that matches reality, instead of musing like the ancient men who wrote the Bible did.
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Post by SonWorshiper on Jan 2, 2004 0:07:44 GMT -5
To my sadness, you have only proved my point.
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Post by michaeldark on Jan 2, 2004 1:02:21 GMT -5
funda Truth? Leave it to a Fundamentalist to try and imply that facts are something other than facts. I always find it so amusing when Christians on these boards feel this need to present themselves as some authority on the lives and thoughts of people they don't even know. I am sure this may be convincing for those individuals who must rationalize and provide themselves with some fabricated explanation for what they can't understand. However, don't expect that strategy to have any credibility with anyone else. Any person with reasonable intelligence would expect you to at least use a little common sense here. That means you should be able to comprehend that making up your own reasons (or spouting off some erroneous tenet you've been taught) is never going to do anything more than expose this kind of doctrine for the false belief that it is. As for the supposed end days prophecy, the problem is that Christ obviously didn't realize the world would continue another 2,000 years, and is still going strong mind you. Thus his reportedly making a remark about the way it WAS and IS with respect to religion, that is to say that other beliefs DO and have ALWAYS existed for MILLENNIA, shows it to not be a prophecy at all, or a failed one. Most anything you choose to complain about in human beings, or civilizations for that matter, has been complained about and said to be proof of the end days in the very same way for thousands and thousands of years. This hasn't changed and it certainly is nothing new. Sorry SW, but history does refute both you and your beliefs. No Sonworshipper, the vast majority of the human race will not agree to materializing your visions of Armageddon. Society has just grown too sophisticated to believe in or want to create this fairy-tale ending. These myths may have worked back when mankind thought the earth was the center of the universe. But, the religious myth that sustained such notions can no longer be held. Think of how things were spoken about without the knowledge of our universe that we now possess. Joshua stopped both the sun and the moon to have time to finish a slaughter? We are to believe that God handed this down but couldn't get the facts right? The ancient man of the Bible looked up and the sky and believed that the Earth and the heavens were divided. Modern man can now look at Earth from space. Earthrise - Apollo 8/NASA What we see is that Earth is IN the heavens. There are so many other examples. Next time you want to present an argument about why people don't agree the Bible is accurate or literal, you might try choosing one that matches reality, instead of musing like the ancient men who wrote the Bible did. Why do you attack Christianity? Do have a belief in ANY kind of higher power? There has to be something more than this crap-hole we've turned this once lovely planet into.
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Post by Kee on Jan 2, 2004 13:45:01 GMT -5
Why do you attack Christianity? Do have a belief in ANY kind of higher power? There has to be something more than this crap-hole we've turned this once lovely planet into. Michael, challenging the validity of the erroneous assertions SW writes is in no way attacking Christianity. SW thinks he has it all figured out, and more importantly that he has some perceptive knowledge about other people's thoughts, what and why they believe what they do, and on and on. What a bunch of nonsense. The very fact that he boast someone was never a Christian in the first place is a dead giveaway that he hasn't a clue what he is talking about. It's the old, "I believe the Bible to be truth, but I don't have to apply it to myself if I'm using it against you." Your scripture tells you than only God can judge another's heart, and yet Christians repeatedly stand there like an authority -- playing God and judging other hearts all the time. Not everyone does this of course, but you hopefully get my point. The other thought I want to add here about this is that people who do this kind of thing don't really realize how poorly they are speaking of Christian beliefs in making these kinds of judgments about others. I mean, let's face it....if someone spends 15,20,30,40 plus years believing as you Christians DO, and yet it was never real as SW is contending here -- then you have yourself a pretty crappie set of beliefs. You are told to believe that people didn't really get it... in all that time and all that investment of their thoughts, their hearts and their souls?? The commitment was meaningless after all?? Sure doesn't speak highly of the religion, now does it? As for my beliefs....I simply look at the whole scheme of things a lot differently than Christians do. Definitely my worldview is not as cynical as yours seems to be. Life should be joyfully celebrated and embraced. Not hated. I don't hate my flesh, nor my mind, nor my spirituality, nor the human experience. Sure we have problems -- lots of them. But is that any excuse to point our collective finger of blame at everybody else, then say that ancient man's personifications of fear in evil spirits, an external head demon more powerful than God is responsible for ruining the human condition? Heck no! We are the creators here on Earth, and what we create is what we believe. Think about the middle east Michael. What are they creating there? In the city of Beirut you have the world's three major religions - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - all stuck like concrete in their religious metaphors so much that they can't and don't even realize it's reference. Each insist that their view of God and spirituality is the right one. You think that if every human on this planet was a Christian that we wouldn't have the problems that we have? Think again. The biggest problem that we face today is a spiritual one. It's focal point is our beliefs about God, in the way we think about and treat others as a result of what we believe about him.
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Post by Shirley on Jan 2, 2004 14:06:43 GMT -5
You know, reading this part here, got me to thinking about Ireland:
There you have two groups of Christians fighting, each insisting they are right. Its definately a spiritual problem...but I don't think Christianity or any other religion will fix it.
Its the same as in Afghanistan, Iraq..all those places..fighting under a banner of GOD...never realizing they are really only fighting under their own banner. For their own desires, wants and percieved beliefs.
The sooner the human contingent on this planet realizes that, the sooner we can get to the real purpose of being here. And that day is coming...you can see the changes in people if you look around. You can see the beauty through the ugliness. We are so conditioned to only see the ugly, the horrid, the painful. When was the last time you saw a news story about something wonderful that happened?
Its all in the mindset...we ALL have to change our mindset...the jew, the moslem, the christian, the atheist and the pagan alike..and realize we are all part of a larger family...one that extends beyond these labels we place on ourselves.
Blessings Everyone...and love to ALL!!! Shirley
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Post by michaeldark on Jan 2, 2004 15:34:58 GMT -5
You know, reading this part here, got me to thinking about Ireland: There you have two groups of Christians fighting, each insisting they are right. Its definately a spiritual problem...but I don't think Christianity or any other religion will fix it. Its the same as in Afghanistan, Iraq..all those places..fighting under a banner of GOD...never realizing they are really only fighting under their own banner. For their own desires, wants and percieved beliefs. The sooner the human contingent on this planet realizes that, the sooner we can get to the real purpose of being here. And that day is coming...you can see the changes in people if you look around. You can see the beauty through the ugliness. We are so conditioned to only see the ugly, the horrid, the painful. When was the last time you saw a news story about something wonderful that happened? Its all in the mindset...we ALL have to change our mindset...the jew, the moslem, the christian, the atheist and the pagan alike..and realize we are all part of a larger family...one that extends beyond these labels we place on ourselves. Blessings Everyone...and love to ALL!!! Shirley I saw some good news around Christmas...but that tends to be the only time of year you see any.
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Post by michaeldark on Jan 2, 2004 15:35:29 GMT -5
You know, reading this part here, got me to thinking about Ireland: There you have two groups of Christians fighting, each insisting they are right. Its definately a spiritual problem...but I don't think Christianity or any other religion will fix it. Its the same as in Afghanistan, Iraq..all those places..fighting under a banner of GOD...never realizing they are really only fighting under their own banner. For their own desires, wants and percieved beliefs. The sooner the human contingent on this planet realizes that, the sooner we can get to the real purpose of being here. And that day is coming...you can see the changes in people if you look around. You can see the beauty through the ugliness. We are so conditioned to only see the ugly, the horrid, the painful. When was the last time you saw a news story about something wonderful that happened? Its all in the mindset...we ALL have to change our mindset...the jew, the moslem, the christian, the atheist and the pagan alike..and realize we are all part of a larger family...one that extends beyond these labels we place on ourselves. Blessings Everyone...and love to ALL!!! Shirley I saw some good news around Christmas...but that tends to be the only time of year you see any.
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Post by k8reader on Jan 2, 2004 16:52:27 GMT -5
Michael, challenging the validity of the erroneous assertions SW writes is in no way attacking Christianity. SW thinks he has it all figured out, and more importantly that he has some perceptive knowledge about other people's thoughts, what and why they believe what they do, and on and on. What a bunch of nonsense. The very fact that he boast someone was never a Christian in the first place is a dead giveaway that he hasn't a clue what he is talking about. It's the old, "I believe the Bible to be truth, but I don't have to apply it to myself if I'm using it against you." Your scripture tells you than only God can judge another's heart, and yet Christians repeatedly stand there like an authority -- playing God and judging other hearts all the time. Not everyone does this of course, but you hopefully get my point. Oh Kee, you are just too funny! Don't you see that you are doing EXACTLY what you are accusing SW of? Aren't you judging SW's motives? Aren't you assuming that SW thinks he knows people's hearts, when in fact he is just paraphrasing a key parable told by Jesus? Kee, you have every right to reject Christian beliefs as "crappie", but you will be corrected when you make statements about where those ideas come from. Son Worshiper quoted scriptures to reference what was said. Spurious faith is something that was addressed by Jesus on several occasions. In Mark 4:13 Jesus told the disciples that if they didn't understand the parable of the soils, then how would they understand ANY parable? He further explains the parable so that it is ABUNDANTLY clear. SW's description of those who never really were Christians (No matter how long they thought they were) Directly parallels the parable of the soils, found in Matt. 13, Mark 4 and Luke 8. Or, how about this one from the mouth of JESUS: Matthew 7 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!Shall I continue with more? Do you really think that the idea of "real" and "false" Christians is something that SW made up? How do YOU interpret the parable of the soils? I would really like to know, since Jesus Himself explained what it meant. No, some people never really got it. You are still coming from the mindset of earning, working for or acquiring salvation. A person could go to church every day, memorize the Bible, give all of their money to charity and still NEVER get it. The Pharasees were perfect examples of this type of person. They were very religious, and probably really nice people, but Jesus called them hypocrites, and a brood of vipors. (Hypocrit means actors, by the way. An actor is a pretender such as SW was talking about) How do you know? Since you inaccurately describe the way Christians view things. You are again doing the assuming here: "Definitely my worldview is not as cynical as yours seems to be." "Life should be joyfully celebrated and embraced. Not hated." Christians hate life? Is this an accurate statement?"I don't hate my flesh, nor my mind, nor my spirituality, nor the human experience." Christians hate their flesh? I think you are confusing us with the gnostics, who by the way much more closely resemble YOUR beliefs. You think we hate our minds? Our Spirits, our human experiences??This is YOUR belief, not OURS. If you can have your belief, we can have ours. Just as YOU are insisting that YOUR view is the right one. As a matter of fact I happen to believe that if every human on this planet was a Christian we wouldn't have problems. It is NOT because of what I believe about God, but because I know God. Of all the countries of the earth Kee, where do you want to live? A Christian country? Or one that is predominantly some other religion? Or no religion?
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Post by Kee on Jan 2, 2004 19:15:17 GMT -5
Oh Kee, you are just too funny! Don't you see that you are doing EXACTLY what you are accusing SW of? Aren't you judging SW's motives? Aren't you assuming that SW thinks he knows people's hearts, when in fact he is just paraphrasing a key parable told by Jesus? How so? I'm sure you'd like to believe this, but it's not me that is telling anybody they were never really a Christian. I am however asserting that SW hasn't got the slightest clue about whether someone other than himself was or wasn't, is or isn't. Doesn't take rocket science to know that. Motive is obvious. And YES, k8, SW does think he knows people's hearts. He post about it all the time. The man even had the audacity to try and tell me once that my love for my family, others, etc., was insincere -- a fraud and a sham. That I didn't really know what love was at all BECAUSE I'm not a Christian. What a bunch of you know what! BTW, and this is perhaps the most telling thing about that incident, he posted that garbage in a thread I started relaying a lovely and touching moment I had one morning sending my daughter off to school. So, regardless of what parable he wished to play upon here, his record and posture proceeds him. I'll read the rest of this later.
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Post by Shirley on Jan 3, 2004 7:23:41 GMT -5
I saw some good news around Christmas...but that tends to be the only time of year you see any. You see my point then, Michael. I stopped watching the news..except perhaps for the weather and the traffic, which in my town can be bad..the traffic that is. But, don't you see? If you focus constantly on what is negative, what is depressing...that is where you will be also. There are 5 members in my family. Three of them are always looking at the problems and adversity that comes. They are not generally happy people. My oldest son and I tend to look for the solution..the end that is in sight..and we are generally happy people. That's not to say I don't get down. I do. And usually when I come out the other side, I am much stronger for it with new insights that will simply amaze me. Each step through the valley takes me closer to the next mountaintop...but to reach each succeeding mountaintop, you have to go through each valley. Stop looking at the cloud, Michael. Look deeper into it. Find the silver lining...its there and you can see it. You just have to look past the darkness of the cloud. Blessings and Love to you! Shirley
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Post by k8reader on Jan 3, 2004 9:52:00 GMT -5
How so? I'm sure you'd like to believe this, but it's not me that is telling anybody they were never really a Christian. Neither was Son Worshiper. In the post you quoted he described a group (type) of people who were never Christians (I believe he said "these people"). This description is based on the Bible, which he - and I, believe is the Word of God. Again, I am at a loss. I don't see anywhere in the post you apparently were responding to, where SW said that he knew whether or not anyone IN PARTICULAR was or wasn't, is or isn't a Christian. SW, and in fact all Christians have an absolute right to believe what is written in the Bible, and to then make statements based on those beliefs. First he said that many would be deceived, based on Jesus' words in Matt. 24 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Then he described those who are and those who never were...again it looks just like Mark 4 to me. 3"Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. 8Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times." 9Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." ....... 13Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? 14The farmer sows the word. 15Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. 16Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 18Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. 20Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop--thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown." Compare SW's words with verse 18-19: "These people are trying to live and believe in The Lord through their carnal mind. They have doubts, they have questions. They have things that pop up that have no reasoning or logic. Eventually, because they do not possess The Spirit of Truth, deception sets in, and they reject The God of The Bible and Christianity as a whole." I am not familiar with your past history with SW, nor do I want to be. Perhaps that is why you took his comments personally. But, I for one, did see your words as an attack against Christianity, based on what you were responding to. It looks like you set out to purposely criticize Christians and Christian beliefs: "Leave it to a Fundamentalist to try and imply that facts are something other than facts." We're liars?"those individuals who must rationalize and provide themselves with some fabricated explanation for what they can't understand." We're stupid?"That means you should be able to comprehend that making up your own reasons (or spouting off some erroneous tenet you've been taught) is never going to do anything more than expose this kind of doctrine for the false belief that it is." Where to start? We can't comprehend? We make things up? Our tenets are in error? We believe what someone told us? Our doctrine is false? "Christ obviously didn't realize the world would continue another 2,000 years" Now Jesus was stupid? You know we believe He knows everything. I found this comment particularly OFFENSIVE. Christ obviously DID realize that the world would continue, because He is very much in it NOW, I talked to Him this morning.At the same time you criticize Christian's for stating their beliefs as facts, you have no problem enjoying the freedom to do the same: "We are the creators here on Earth, and what we create is what we believe." "the vast majority of the human race will not agree to materializing your visions of Armageddon" "to create this fairy-tale ending" "The biggest problem that we face today is a spiritual one. It's focal point is our beliefs about God, in the way we think about and treat others as a result of what we believe about him." These are all your own religious beliefs which YOU are stating as facts.If you are angry at SW for prior comments, it may be helpful to address those separately, so that you are not misunderstood. A side note about the parable of the sower. You may have noticed that I left out verses 10-12. In these verses Jesus is telling the disciples why He speaks in parables: 10When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'[1] " This 12th verse is a comparison to Isaiah (Jesus often quotes OT scriptures.) Anyway, I thought it was interesting that this parable AND it's explanation is found in Matthew, Mark and Luke. This parable is also found in the (non-canonical) Gospel of Thomas (1:9), but NO explanation is found with it. It looks like Jesus is calling the followers of the Gospel of Thomas "those on the outside". But that is just my belief, based on the words of My God.
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Post by Kee on Jan 3, 2004 17:16:27 GMT -5
SW, and in fact all Christians have an absolute right to believe what is written in the Bible, and to then make statements based on those beliefs. You are absolutely correct, you do have the right to believe anything you want. The problem for you in doing it however IS that you cannot make something truth when in reality it isn't. Spouting such things merely poves how wrong and false your belief is.
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