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Post by Pietro on Jul 27, 2003 9:31:51 GMT -5
Genesda brought his up in another thread. What does the Bible teach about death? I find it a bit inconclusive.
The Old Testament does indeed seem to refer to it as sleep or rest in the netherworld, or Shaol, or Hades but the New Testament speak of it a little diferently;
Luke 16
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[1] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
And on the cross Jesus assures the thief:
Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Souls of martrys in heaven?
Revelation 6:9
When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. They cried in a loud voice, "How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgement and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?"
And Jesus made a visit to the lower regions:
Eph 4:9-10
9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[3] ? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
To preach to the dead:
1 Peter 4:6
6For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
Any thoughts?
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Post by Cohdra on Jul 27, 2003 11:41:08 GMT -5
I do not believe in the concept of soul sleep.
I think that souls rest, but this does not mean they are not aware of anything. There are some instances in scripture where the "dead" do communicate with the living. God is a God of the living. I'll contribute further as the thread deveolps. I would like to hear other views first.
God bless
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Post by Jan on Jul 27, 2003 11:50:43 GMT -5
I know of only one instance where the Lord God allowed someone dead (Samuel) to speak to the living (Saul). I don't recall that this happened any other time in the Bible. Soul sleep in not biblical  <>< |
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Post by Cohdra on Jul 27, 2003 11:59:40 GMT -5
Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah(?) in front of a few, select disciples.
The parable about the sinful man that goes to hell, and wants to return to warn his brothers (family). Christ would not give us misleading information, even in a parable.
God bless
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Post by Pietro on Jul 27, 2003 13:38:05 GMT -5
The Book of Wisdom has something to say though this is only in the Catholic Bible. I present it only for the acqaintance of those not familiar:
The Book of Wisdom was written about a hundred years before the coming of Christ. Its author, whose name is not known to us, was a member of the Jewish community at Alexandria, in Egypt. He wrote in Greek, in a style patterned on that of Hebrew verse. At times he speaks in the person of Solomon, placing his teachings on the lips of the wise king of Hebrew tradition in order to emphasize their value. His profound knowledge of the earlier Old Testament writings is reflected in almost every line of the book, and marks him, like Ben Sira, as an outstanding representative of religious devotion and learning among the sages of postexilic Judaism.
The primary purpose of the sacred author was the edification of his co-religionists in a time when they had experienced suffering and oppression, in part at least at the hands of apostate fellow Jews. To convey his message he made use of the most popular religious themes of his time, namely the splendor and worth of divine wisdom, the glorious events of the Exodus, God's mercy, the folly of idolatry, and the manner in which God's justice is vindicated in rewarding or punishing the individual soul. The first ten chapters especially form a preparation for the fuller teachings of Christ and his Church. Many pkmtyolpages from this section of the book, notably Wisdom 3:1-8, are used by the Church in her liturgy.
The Book of Wisdom
Chapter 3
1 But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them.
2 They seemed, in the view of the foolish, to be dead; and their pkmtyolping away was thought an affliction
3 and their going forth from us, utter destruction. But they are in peace.
4 For if before men, indeed, they be punished, yet is their hope full of immortality;
5 Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. 6 As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself.
7 In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble;
8 They shall judge nations and rule over peoples, and the LORD shall be their King forever.
9 Those who trust in him shall understand truth, and the faithful shall abide with him in love: Because grace and mercy are with his holy ones, and his care is with the elect.
10 But the wicked shall receive a punishment to match their thoughts, since they neglected justice and forsook the LORD.
11 For he who despises wisdom and instruction is doomed. Vain is their hope, fruitless are their labors, and worthless are their works.
12 Their wives are foolish and their children wicked; accursed is their brood.
13 Yes, blessed is she who, childless and undefiled, knew not transgression of the marriage bed; she shall bear fruit at the visitation of souls.
14 So also the eunuch whose hand wrought no misdeed, who held no wicked thoughts against the LORD- For he shall be given fidelity's choice reward and a more gratifying heritage in the LORD'S temple.
15 For the fruit of noble struggles is a glorious one; and unfailing is the root of understanding.
16 But the children of adulterers will remain without issue, and the progeny of an unlawful bed will disappear. 17 For should they attain long life, they will be held in no esteem, and dishonored will their old age be at last;
18 While should they die abruptly, they have no hope nor comfort in the day of scrutiny;
19 for dire is the end of the wicked generation.
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Post by Jan on Jul 27, 2003 13:56:14 GMT -5
Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah(?) in front of a few, select disciples. The parable about the sinful man that goes to hell, and wants to return to warn his brothers (family). Christ would not give us misleading information, even in a parable. God bless Christ spoke to the two on the Mount of Transfiguration - the disciples with Christ did not; just recognized them. In regards to the "sinful man"(which was the rich man)...both the "rich man" and the "poor man" they were both dead (bodily) but were conscious of each other. Which proves that we are in a conscious state after our body dies. The "rich man" is speaking to Abraham, who is also dead. <>< |
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Post by Cohdra on Jul 27, 2003 23:31:39 GMT -5
To Jan:
I never said the disciples spoke to them; merely that they were there. Jesus was (is) a living being, and he did speak to them.
God bless
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Post by genesda on Jul 29, 2003 4:48:14 GMT -5
Genesda brought his up in another thread. What does the Bible teach about death? I find it a bit inconclusive. The Old Testament does indeed seem to refer to it as sleep or rest in the netherworld, or Shaol, or Hades but the New Testament speak of it a little diferently; Netherworld? You mean the grave, don't you? That's where the dead are.Luke 16 22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[1] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' And on the cross Jesus assures the thief: Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." Souls of martrys in heaven? Revelation 6:9 When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. They cried in a loud voice, "How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgement and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?" And Jesus made a visit to the lower regions: Eph 4:9-10 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[3] ? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) To preach to the dead: 1 Peter 4:6 6For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. Any thoughts?
There is no difference in man's makeup between the old and new testaments, so the O.T. is valid as a learning tool for understanding the N.T.
Genesis 2:7 describes what is a man. The O.T. is not "inconclusive" death at all. Only if you accept the pagan teaching of a soul that survives the body and lives somewhere on it's own after the body dies, does death become "inconclusive. Below is some evidence of how the pagan teaching of a natural immortal soul came into Christianity:
The New Catholic Encyclopedia (bearing the imprimatur of the archbishop of Washington; published in 1967 by the Catholic University of America) admits (Vol. 13, page 467): otion of the soul surviving after death is not readily discernible in the Bible.”
So...How did the belief of an eternal soul come about ?
The fifth-century B.C.E. Greek philosophers Socrates and Plato are credited with being among the first to advance the belief that the soul is immortal. Yet, they were not the originators of the idea. Rather, they polished and transformed it into a philosophical teaching, thus making it more appealing to the cultured cpkmtyolles of their day and beyond. The fact is that the Zoroastrians of ancient Persia and the Egyptians before them also believed in the immortality of the soul. The question, then, is, What is the source of this teaching?
"In the ancient world," says the book The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, "Egypt, Persia, and Greece felt the influence of the Babylonian religion." Regarding Egyptian religious beliefs, the book goes on to say: "In view of the early contact between Egypt and Babylonia, as revealed by the El-Amarna tablets, there were certainly abundant opportunities for the infusion of Babylonian views and customs into Egyptian cults." Much the same can be said of the old Persian and Greek cultures.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was spoken to some alexandrian pharisees. These men had accepted pagan immortal-soulism while studing greek philosophy at Alexandria in Egypt. Immortal soulism was invading the jewish church during the intertestament period. At the time of Christ many had forsaken the OT doctrine of soul sleep and accepted Pagan greek immortal-soulism. Most jews including Christ and the apostles still held to the OT doctrine of soul sleep.
Josephus - Antiquities of the Jews Book 18 ch1 sec 3.
“They (the Pharisees) also believe that souls have an immortal vigor in them and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life, and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and to live again.”
It must be noted that it was only the Alexandrian Pharisees who accepted the pagan Greek idea of the immortality of the soul. These Pharisees believed that man had an immortal soul that lived inside a mortal body. When the mortal body died the immortal soul went to a subterraneous cavern to be punished or to paradise to receive rewards. The souls in paradise will eventually be raised from the dead when there will be a resurrection of the body. This body will be raised immortal and the immortal souls will be reunited with their bodies.
It must be noted that the Alexandrian Pharisees did not obtain these beliefs on the state of the dead from the Old Testament. They obtained it from the writings of the Apocrypha, the Pseudepigrapha, and from a Jewish Platonic philosopher named Philo of Alexandria.
Over a period of some two hundred years prior to Christ, tangent positions had been developing under the impact of Platonic philosophy. Thus the concept that Hades contained two chambers appeared in 4Esra 4:41 along with the idea that the righteous inhabit one chamber (Wisdom of Solomon) while the wicked are accursed, scourged, and tormented in the other (1 Enoch 22:9-13). The Midrash on Ruth 1:7 likewise assigns one chamber to the righteous with the wicked to the other. The visibility of one company to the other in the respective chambers is similarly in the Midrash on Eccl 7:14 and the wicked see the angels guard the righteous (4 Ezra 7:86).
4 Ezra: 85-95 tells of the welcoming of the righteous by companies of ministering angels. 4 Maccabees13: 17 mention the righteous as welcomed in Hades by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And finally the righteous are privileged to sit in Abrahams lap (The Talmud
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Post by genesda on Jul 29, 2003 4:50:56 GMT -5
Christ spoke to the two on the Mount of Transfiguration - the disciples with Christ did not; just recognized them. In regards to the "sinful man"(which was the rich man)...both the "rich man" and the "poor man" they were both dead (bodily) but were conscious of each other. Which proves that we are in a conscious state after our body dies. The "rich man" is speaking to Abraham, who is also dead. <>< The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was spoken to some alexandrian pharisees. These men had accepted pagan immortal-soulism while studing greek philosophy at Alexandria in Egypt. Immortal soulism was invading the jewish church during the intertestament period. At the time of Christ many had forsaken the OT doctrine of soul sleep and accepted Pagan greek immortal-soulism. Most jews including Christ and the apostles still held to the OT doctrine of soul sleep. Josephus - Antiquities of the Jews Book 18 ch1 sec 3. “They (the Pharisees) also believe that souls have an immortal vigor in them and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life, and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and to live again.” It must be noted that it was only the Alexandrian Pharisees who accepted the pagan Greek idea of the immortality of the soul. These Pharisees believed that man had an immortal soul that lived inside a mortal body. When the mortal body died the immortal soul went to a subterraneous cavern to be punished or to paradise to receive rewards. The souls in paradise will eventually be raised from the dead when there will be a resurrection of the body. This body will be raised immortal and the immortal souls will be reunited with their bodies. It must be noted that the Alexandrian Pharisees did not obtain these beliefs on the state of the dead from the Old Testament. They obtained it from the writings of the Apocrypha, the Pseudepigrapha, and from a Jewish Platonic philosopher named Philo of Alexandria. Over a period of some two hundred years prior to Christ, tangent positions had been developing under the impact of Platonic philosophy. Thus the concept that Hades contained two chambers appeared in 4Esra 4:41 along with the idea that the righteous inhabit one chamber (Wisdom of Solomon) while the wicked are accursed, scourged, and tormented in the other (1 Enoch 22:9-13). The Midrash on Ruth 1:7 likewise assigns one chamber to the righteous with the wicked to the other. The visibility of one company to the other in the respective chambers is similarly in the Midrash on Eccl 7:14 and the wicked see the angels guard the righteous (4 Ezra 7:86). 4 Ezra: 85-95 tells of the welcoming of the righteous by companies of ministering angels. 4 Maccabees13: 17 mention the righteous as welcomed in Hades by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And finally the righteous are privileged to sit in Abrahams lap (The Talmud |
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Post by RealistState on Jul 29, 2003 4:53:50 GMT -5
genesda:
Have you found the New Catholic Encylopedia online yet? I see you've used it to quote, but I can only access the Catholic Enclyopedia (no New in the title) on line.
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Post by RealistState on Jul 29, 2003 4:59:34 GMT -5
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was spoken to some alexandrian pharisees. These men had accepted pagan immortal-soulism while studing greek philosophy at Alexandria in Egypt. Where did that come from? I'm flipping open my Bible now to find that term. |
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Post by genesda on Jul 29, 2003 8:09:17 GMT -5
Where did that come from? I'm flipping open my Bible now to find that term.
Dust of the ground plus God's spirit equals a living soul. When God's spirit is withdrawn, death occurs and all that is left is the dust of the ground.
1+1=2 If you take 1 away, all you have left is 1, not 2. [/color] |
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Post by RealistState on Jul 29, 2003 11:53:33 GMT -5
The intertestament period is when Joesephus wrote. I have some quotes from SDA sources, but since the bible never speaks of an "immortal soul" and also states that souls do die, I have no reason to doubt my source. Also, understanding what constitutes a "soul' helps me to know that there is no soul after death occurs. Genesis 2:7 explains that the combination of the dust of the ground becomes a living soul after God's spirit is added to it.
Dust of the ground plus God's spirit equals a living soul. When God's spirit is withdrawn, death occurs and all that is left is the dust of the ground.
1+1=2 If you take 1 away, all you have left is 1, not 2. [/color][/quote] So the this is an SDA interpreptation since there is nothing in the Bible that would indicate that there was an "alexandrian" pharasee. Do I have that correct? |
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Post by genesda on Jul 30, 2003 3:41:49 GMT -5
So the this is an SDA interpreptation since there is nothing in the Bible that would indicate that there was an "alexandrian" pharasee. Do I have that correct?
There is much history written that is not inspired text, besides the inspired words of the bible. |
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Post by RealistState on Jul 30, 2003 5:00:15 GMT -5
Correct. By understanding where this false teaching came from, we can understand whether it's false or not, especially when there is no biblical teaching concurring with it.
There is much history written that is not inspired text, besides the inspired words of the bible. So according to the Bible, there is no such thing as an "alexandrian pharisee". |
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