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Post by Pietro on Jul 30, 2003 9:09:25 GMT -5
I don’t know if it has been 72 hours or not but I figured since I started this thread I better chip in. There is no difference in man's makeup between the old and new testaments, so the O.T. is valid as a learning tool for understanding the N.T.
I have no doubt that there was a Hellenistic influence on the development of an “immortal soul” concept in Judaism. I think though that it might go back further than intertestamental times. For example Psalm 49 : 14 Like sheep they are destined for the grave, and death will feed on them. The upright will rule over them in the morning; their forms will decay in the grave, far from their princely mansions. 15 But God will redeem my life from the grave; he will surely take me to himself. Other translation use ‘Sheol” instead of “the grave” Clearly there is the hope of something of the self going to God. This is all a fine exercise if we are interested in exploring how the ancients reflected on death and what lies beyond, what there hopes and fears were. But I believe we do a serious disservice to Holy Scripture if we attribute to it teaching God never intended to impart. The Bible is a theological masterpiece not a scientific text book. It is not intended to teach us cosmology (Paul’s third heaven) or how nature works, “he makes lightening produce the rain”. Nor is it intended to make a definitive statement on “man’s makeup”. It is intended to inspire hope in the goodness and ultimate mercy of God. To extract quotes to support various arguments is often a degrading process for the inspired texts. And yes, even the Catholic Church is guilty of that. If Greek “immortal soulism’ influenced Hebrew thinking perhaps it was because it made sense to them. I can find no indication that Jesus did not ascribe to it something like it. His whole message is eternal life. The concept of “soul sleep’ sounds more like a metaphor for the mysterious reality of death with which we must all grapple. We need to give the human authors whom God inspired some degree of literary freedom. There is hyperbole, metaphor, exhortation, parable, history, and theology all expressed through humans of a particular time and world view. To fixate on objective facts one tries to justify with a scriptural reference is to miss the main point of scripture, its subjective witness to the power of God in the lives of the inspired authors. Not that it is devoid of historical information or definitive statements. But that only accentuates the need for guidance when reading scripture.
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Post by Pietro on Jul 30, 2003 10:52:48 GMT -5
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Post by Protestant on Jul 30, 2003 21:47:26 GMT -5
On the contrary the "sdaoutreach" web site is run by people who believe and teach satan's lie told in the garden of Eden "you shall not die" the first sermon on the immortality of the soul. To find the truth on the state of the dead have a read of this www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_05.html
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Post by Pietro on Jul 31, 2003 8:41:06 GMT -5
Carefully selected texts to prove a point. A use of scripture that is basically self serving. I can do it also. We still have not seen adequate explanation of:
LuKe 24:43 "Amen I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
Revelation 6:9 'When he broke open the fifth seal, i saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God."
2 Cor 5:8 "Yet we are courageous, and we would rather leave the body and go home ot the Lord."
Phil 1:23 'I am caught between the two. I long to depart this life and be with Christ, for that is far better."
What have we accomplished?
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Post by Protestant on Jul 31, 2003 17:59:44 GMT -5
These verses have all been answered before2 Cor 5:8 "Yet we are courageous, and we would rather leave the body and go home ot the Lord."
2 Corinth 5:1-9 “For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed [Physical death], we have a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens [An immortal body]. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven [An immortal body]. If indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked [Dead without a body]. For we who are in this tent [Mortal body] groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed [Dead without a body] , but further clothed, [with an immortal body] that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing [Transformation from mortal flesh to immortal flesh] is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the [mortal] body we are absent from the Lord [Living here on earth]. For we walk by faith [Believing what God tells us], not by sight. We are confident, yes well pleased rather to be absent from the [mortal] body and to be present with the Lord [In heaven, not unclothed without a body but clothed with an immortal body].”
There is nothing in this pkmtyolpage that teaches that man is conscious in death or has life as a disembodied spirit. To the contrary, Paul wants to be in heaven with an immortal body.
The expression “absent from the body… present with the Lord” is one of the most commonly used statements made by Paul to try and prove that death is only a change of life for the believer – simply a transition, with the soul of the saint pkmtyolping out of the body and going straight into the Lord’s presence. This is because the accepted view of the Immortal - soulist is that the ‘dead in Christ’ are not dead at all. However the mortal body does not contain an immortal soul that is released by death and then flies away the heaven. That is thinly disguised Platonism. It must be noted that when Paul wrote his epistles, the Platonic philosophy of an immortal-soul had not yet penetrated the infant Christian church. This doctrine did not enter the church until nearly AD 200. None of the Apostles believed in it and when Paul wrote these words in AD 58 none of his early Christian readers would have read Immortal-soulism into it. It is interesting that Paul who was a tent maker (Acts 18:1-3) should refer to his body a tent. A tent and a body are similar in several respects – the materials of both are made of earthly elements, they are transient dwelling places, and may be taken down and moved at any time.
Speaking of death Paul says that if our tent or body is destroyed we have a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. So the hope of the believer is to be given a new body. One made by God, not of this creation, an eternal immortal body in the heavens. This body is given to Christians at the resurrection at the Second Advent of Christ. This body is also the same type of body as the one given to Christ at His resurrection.
1 Corinth 15: 42-49 “…so also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption...it is sown in a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam became a living being. The last Adam became a life giving spirit…The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second man is the Lord from heaven…And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly man.”
The new body given to Christians at the resurrection is called a Spiritual body, one that is incorruptible, ie one that will not grow old, decay or deteriorate. The Spiritual body that Christ was raised with and which we will be raised with is not an immaterial ghost or spirit as is clearly indicated when Jesus, after His resurrection, showed Himself to His disciples.
Luke 24:36–43 “Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, ‘Peace to you’ But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, ‘Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? ‘Behold My hands and my feet that it is I myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have’. When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. But while they still did not believe for joy, and marvelled, He said to them, ‘Have you any food here?’ So they gave Him a piece of broiled fish and some honeycomb. And He took it and ate it in their presence.”
Whatever this immortal, incorruptible, spiritual body is, it is clear that it has flesh and bones and has a stomach to hold food. This is the existence that Paul longed for when he said, “we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven.” Paul clearly says that he does not want to be naked. That is, he does not want to be dead or without a body. He wants to be clothed with the glorified immortal body that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
‘While we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.’ That is while we live here on earth in this mortal corruptible state we are not in the presence of Christ.
“ We are confident, yes well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.” That is to be absent from this mortal body and to be clothed with the new immortal body made without hands eternal in the heavens and be in the presence of Christ. Paul is not saying that he wants to be dead and be a ghost in the presence of Christ. He mentioned twice that he did not want to be unclothed, that is dead without a body. His desire was to be clothed with immortality with a glorified body and be in the presence of Christ. There is nothing in this pkmtyolpage that says that man is conscious in death or that man has an immortal soul. It is conceded that if man had never sinned against God in the Garden of Eden he would have reached this eternal state without having pkmtyolped through the experience of death. Then the notion of an inner immortal soul would never have come into being. It was in fact the second lie taught by Satan the devil in order to sustain the first lie – ‘You will not surely die’ Genesis 3:4. When man should fall in death, the original lie would be obvious, unless man could be persuaded that there is some invisible medium or entity (soul or spirit) through which he continues to live. Hence, such a theory was imperative, and was introduced into and through paganism, and became widely believed.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 31, 2003 18:01:54 GMT -5
Revelation 6:9,10 “When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying ‘how long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.”
Some believe that the saved live in heaven under an altar. This is a rather strange idea of paradise. This is not a literal event but is a part of a vision that uses symbolic language. In Genesis 4:10 God said to Cain after he had murdered his brother: “ What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground.” The saints’ cry to God in the same way the blood of Abel cried from the ground. It’s not real. The altar here is probably a picture of the bronze altar in the Hebrew sanctuary, and the martyrs may be thought of as sacrifices presented to God. As the blood of the victims was poured out at the base of the altar (see Lev 4:7), and the life (soul) of the flesh is in the blood (see Lev 17:11), so the souls of those who had been martyred may be thought of as being beneath the altar. Later Jewish tradition set forth the idea that Israel’s dead were buried under the altar and therefore were interred under the throne of glory. These souls are not the disembodied spirits of departed martyrs. The Apostle John was not given a view of heaven as it actually is. In this same vision the first four seals are the four horsemen of the apocalypse; a white, red, black and pale horse all with warlike riders. These do not literally exist in heaven. Likewise the souls under the altar in the fifth seal do not literally exist either. They are only figurative representations. In this case the symbolisation is presented to encourage those who faced martyrdom and death with the assurance that despite the seeming triumph of the enemy God’s people will eventually be vindicated.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 31, 2003 18:03:31 GMT -5
Philippians 1:20-24. “…Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit for my labour; yet what shall I choose I cannot tell. For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.”
Paul was in a dilemma; facing two alternatives he did not know which was best. To live or to die. “For me to live and to die is gain.,” he wrote. But whichever one I choose Christ will be magnified in my body whether by life or death. Paul had been beaten eight times and stoned once. He had been in perils of waters, robbers, the Jews, false Christians, the heathen, perils in the city, the wilderness, and in the sea and had been in weariness, pain, sickness, hunger, thirst, cold, and nakedness (2 Corinth 11:23-27). He had a desire to end this mortal life with its trials and tribulations. He could well say that to die is gain and then be at rest in a state of unconscious sleep in the grave. Like Job in the Old Testament he could say ‘O that you would hide me in the grave’ (Job 14 -13). But the cause of Christ and the preaching of the Gospel were his greatest joy in life. It’s little wonder that with these two alternatives Paul was unable to decide which was the better choice.
Unable to make up his mind Paul now adds a third alternative, ‘having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better.’ Better than what? Better than the other two choices: (living here or dying). The word translated ‘depart’ is the Greek word ‘analuo’. It means to depart immediately like a ship being loosed from its moorings and setting sail. This third choice cannot mean death but some event by which he could be in the immediate presence of Christ. That event is called ‘Translation’. Paul wanted to be translated physically either at the Second Advent of Christ or by a special translation as was Enoch or Elijah. Unable to make up his mind this third choice ended all indecision. ‘Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.’ That is to remain alive in this mortal condition and to oversee the churches. He did not live to see the fulfilment of his hearts desire; he suffered a martyr’s death instead. But he ‘died in faith’ waiting for the ‘crown of righteousness, which the Lord the righteous judge’, shall give him ‘on that day’, and not to him only but ‘to all them who have loved His appearing’. (2 Tim 4:8). There is nothing in this pkmtyolpage that refers to mans consciousness in death or to the Platonic Greek concept of an immortal soul. These ideas have to be believed first and then read into the verses but they cannot be gotten from them.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 31, 2003 18:07:40 GMT -5
Luke 23:43 “…Lord remember me when You come into Your kingdom. And Jesus said to him, ‘assuredly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.’ ”
Two thieves were taken to Calvary and were crucified along with Christ. One of the thieves said to Jesus ‘Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.’ He did not ask to go to heaven when he died. He asked to be remembered when Jesus returns to this earth with His Kingdom. An event that is still in the future. To this request Jesus replied ‘you will be with me in Paradise’. Many Christians infer that the thief and Jesus both went to Paradise that day. This cannot be because we know for sure that Jesus did not go to paradise that day. Also we aren’t certain that the thief died that day.
John 19:31-33 “Therefore, because it was the Preparation day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him. But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.”
It took days to die on the cross. This is why Pilate was astonished that Jesus was already dead so quickly. The thieves had their legs broken to hasten their deaths. As the Jews did not want the bodies to remain on the crosses on the Sabbath. But we aren’t told if they died before the Sabbath began.
Mark 15:43-45 “Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Pilate marvelled that He was already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him if He had been dead for some time.
Jesus died on the day of His crucifixion which was so unusual as to cause Pilate to investigate the matter due to astonishment. But we must answer the question. Did Jesus and the thief go to Paradise on the day of the crucifixion?
John 20:17 “…do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.”
Clearly neither Jesus nor the thief went into Paradise on the day of the crucifixion. On the third day after the crucifixion Jesus had not gone to Paradise to be in the Fathers presence. How then do we understand the words of Christ when He said that both He and the thief would be in Paradise today? Simple, Jesus did not say that. The translators added punctuation marks make it appear to say that. But the comma has been put in the wrong place. What Jesus actually said was this: - Luke 23:43 “And Jesus said to him, ‘assuredly I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.’”
I tell you today, you will be with Me in Paradise. Jesus did not say that the thief would be in Paradise that day. He said ‘I tell you today’. And at the resurrection the thief will be taken to Paradise as promised.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 31, 2003 18:48:11 GMT -5
What and where is Paradise?
The word Paradise occurs three times in the Bible. Luke 23:43; 2Corinthians 12:2; Revelation 2:7
2 Corinthians 12:2,4 “ 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven… 4how he was caught up into Paradise
Paul was caught up, in vision, to the third heaven, which in verse 4 is expressly affirmed to be Paradise. The first heaven is the atmosphere; the second heaven is outer space and the third heaven is where God is.
Revelation 2:7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."'
Paradise or the third heaven is clearly where the tree of life is. And in Revelation 21&22 in the description of the New Jerusalem we read:-
Revelation 22:1-2 “And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month.”
So the tree of life grows in the midst of the paradise of God, the New Jerusalem, on the banks of the river of life, which proceeds from the throne of God. That is the paradise of the New Testament- the third heaven, where the tree of life is, and where God maintains His throne. Whoever, therefore goes to paradise goes into the presence of God. Paradise is not under the earth in Hades, as some believe.
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Post by Heart4Him on Jul 31, 2003 19:42:43 GMT -5
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was spoken to some alexandrian pharisees. These men had accepted pagan immortal-soulism while studing greek philosophy at Alexandria in Egypt. Immortal soulism was invading the jewish church during the intertestament period. At the time of Christ many had forsaken the OT doctrine of soul sleep and accepted Pagan greek immortal-soulism. Most jews including Christ and the apostles still held to the OT doctrine of soul sleep. Josephus - Antiquities of the Jews Book 18 ch1 sec 3. “They (the Pharisees) also believe that souls have an immortal vigor in them and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life, and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and to live again.” There are several problems with this. One is that Scripture does not indicate at all that the Pharisees that questioned Christ were Alexandrian. Josephus wouldn't know who they were, for he was born AFTER Christ died, and did not believe in Christ or of any Messianic kingdom. The reason that Jesus told the story was because these pharisees sneered at the teaching of 'you can't love God and money." Two, IF Jesus believed in soul sleep, then He told a theologically false story to promote a truth about money. THAT is very inconsistent with all the rest of His teaching and life. Jesus always stuck with the truth. So, I do not believe that Jesus believed in soul sleep.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 31, 2003 19:53:19 GMT -5
John 11:11-14 “…Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up. Then His disciples said ‘Lord if he sleeps he will get well’ However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly ‘Lazarus is dead’.
Here we have Jesus own understanding about the state of the dead. Jesus believed death to be a state of unconscious sleep.
Josephus recorded a story about a discourse he gave to the Greeks concerning Hades. It is remarkably similiar to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. He says that the concept is based on Plato's immortal - soulism
“...for while you believe that the soul is created and yet is made immortal by God according to the doctrine of Plato...” “Josephus’ discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades.” Kregal publications Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA. 49501. (1981).
The Alexandrian pharisees believed in immortal-soulism which they learned from Greek philosophy not the hebrew bible.
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Post by RealistState on Jul 31, 2003 20:59:46 GMT -5
The Alexandrian pharisees believed in immortal-soulism which they learned from Greek philosophy not the hebrew bible. There's that term again. genesda back in post 13 of this thread seem to indicate that Alexandrian pharisees is not found in the Bible and is an interpreptation of SDA. BTW, genesda has indicated in another thread on the Discussion board that he does not trust any early writings as they may have been corrupted by the Catholic Church.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 31, 2003 21:18:32 GMT -5
The Essenes, a Jewish sect, existed but they arent mentioned in the bible either.
Thats understandable when it comes to theology. The writings of the church Fathers have been interpolated a fair bit.
“The book of Acts is an inspired history of the church. During the period which is embraced in its record, the apostles and their fellow labourers were upon the stage of action; and under their watch-care, the churches of Christ preserved, to a great extent, their purity of life and doctrine. These apostolic churches are thus set forth as examples for all coming time. This book fitly connects the narratives of the four evangelists with the apostolic epistles, and thus unites the whole New Testament. But when we leave the period embraced in this inspired history, and the churches which were founded and governed by inspired men, we enter upon altogether different times. There is, unfortunately, great truth in the severs language of Gibbon:- “The theologian may indulge the pleasing task of describing religion as she descended from heaven, arrayed in her native purity. A more melancholy duty is imposed on the historian. He must discover the inevitable mixture of error and corruption, which she contracted in a long residence upon earth, among a weak and degenerate race of beings.” What says the book of Acts respecting the time immediately following the labours of Paul? In addressing the elders of the Ephesian church, Paul said:- “For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Acts 20:29-30.” It follows from this testimony that we are not authorised to receive the teaching of any man simply because he lived immediately after the apostolic age, or even in the days of the apostles themselves. Grievous wolves were to enter the midst of the people of God, and of their own selves were men to arise, speaking perverse things. If it be asked how these are to be distinguished from the true servants of God, the proper answer is: Those who spoke and acted in accordance with the teachings of the apostles were men of God; those who taught otherwise were of that cpkmtyoll who should speak perverse things to draw away disciples after them.” “History of the Sabbath” J.N. Andrews Review and Herald pub association, USA. 1887, p 193-195. The traditions of the early church are considered by many quite as reliable as the language of the Holy Scriptures. A single instance taken from the bible will illustrate the character of tradition, and show the amount of reliance that can be placed upon it :- “John 21:20-23 “Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, "Lord, who is the one who betrays You?" 21Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, "But Lord, what about this man?" 22Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me." 23Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?" Here is the account of a tradition which actually originated in the very bosom of the apostolic church, which, nevertheless, handed down to the following generations an entire mistake. Observe how carefully the word of God corrected the error. “History of the Sabbath” J.N. Andrews Review and Herald pub association, USA. 1887, p 201-202.
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Post by RealistState on Jul 31, 2003 21:25:49 GMT -5
Thats understandable when it comes to theology. The writings of the church Fathers have been interpolated a fair bit. So do you trust that the writings of Josephus haven't been interpolated?
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Post by Heart4Him on Jul 31, 2003 22:19:08 GMT -5
John 11:11-14 “…Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up. Then His disciples said ‘Lord if he sleeps he will get well’ However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly ‘Lazarus is dead’. Here we have Jesus own understanding about the state of the dead. Jesus believed death to be a state of unconscious sleep. Josephus recorded a story about a discourse he gave to the Greeks concerning Hades. It is remarkably similiar to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. He says that the concept is based on Plato's immortal - soulism “...for while you believe that the soul is created and yet is made immortal by God according to the doctrine of Plato...” “Josephus’ discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades.” Kregal publications Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA. 49501. (1981). The Alexandrian pharisees believed in immortal-soulism which they learned from Greek philosophy not the hebrew bible. I differ with you. And that still does not explain the idea of Jesus using false theology to teadch a truth. He presents the story of Abraham's bosum as existing. If He didn't believe such a place existed, He wouldn't have used it. He didn't use lies to teach. The writings of Josephus are not inspired, not canon. He had many flaws in his writings, and had a bad habit of exaggerating things and promoting his own views. Whether the Alexandrian Jews had a unique view of immortal souls, it still does not mean that is who Jesus was talking to. That is unfounded.
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