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Post by RealistState on Aug 1, 2003 18:45:13 GMT -5
Moses himself was the first to be raised from the dead. Romans 5:14 ‘…death reigned from Adam to Moses…’ death ceased to reign with the resurrection of Moses. He died and was buried (Deut 34:5-6). Just when he was raised from the dead we do not know but there is recorded a struggle between Michael the Archangel and Satan over the body of Moses as to whether the Archangel had the right to bring him from the grave. Jude 9. ....Moses represents the cpkmtyoll resurrected from their graves. I believe the reference is that Michael was sent to bury Moses. In Deuteronomy it would appear that God arranged his burial. Deuteronomy 34:5-6So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
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Post by Protestant on Aug 1, 2003 18:58:20 GMT -5
The quotation used by Jude comes from a book called "The Assumption of Moses" which refers to his resurrection from the grave.
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Post by Jan on Aug 1, 2003 19:05:46 GMT -5
Protestant said He hasn't been bodily raised from the dead yet. Only Christ has been - He's (Christ) the first fruits of the bodily resurrection. Others have been raised from the dead, but died again. This pkmtyolpage (Rom 5:14) along with 1 Cor 15:45 is speaking of Adam and Moses as a "type of Christ". <><
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Post by RealistState on Aug 1, 2003 19:10:41 GMT -5
The quotation used by Jude comes from a book called "The Assumption of Moses" which refers to his resurrection from the grave. I've heard this arguement before, so I did a search on the so-called Assumption of Moses. I would be interested to know how you know that Jude was quoting from it. Apparently it was Origen who attributed Jude's reference to this book but there seems to be no evidence that has survived to back this up. Clement Aexlandrinas gives an account of the burial of Moses quoted from the same book, and while there are several references to the book up to the 6th century only a fragment of it has been found since. From what I have been able to dig up it is full of blunders, some due to transcription, proving that the last scribe had but an imperfect knowledge of the tongue in which he wrote. Some of the blunders seem to have gone even further back and seem to have been attributed to the scribe who translated it from the Greek. In the fragment which has been preserved the pkmtyolpage allegedly found found in Jude is not to be found.
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Post by Pietro on Aug 7, 2003 8:46:21 GMT -5
Protestant and Genesda, are you now saying that there is no Sheol even though the Bible speaks of it? Or that it is only a metaphore for death? or that it is only a later invasion of pagan myth into the Bible?
Isaiah is probably from around 742 bc
Isaiah 14:9-11 "Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones. 10 "They will all respond and say to you, 'Even you have been made weak as we, You have become like us. 11 'Your pomp and the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering.'
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Post by Pietro on Aug 7, 2003 13:50:48 GMT -5
What and where is Paradise? Paul was caught up, in vision, to the third heaven, which in verse 4 is expressly affirmed to be Paradise. The first heaven is the atmosphere; the second heaven is outer space and the third heaven is where God is. Revelation 2:7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."' Paradise or the third heaven is clearly where the tree of life is. And in Revelation 21&22 in the description of the New Jerusalem we read:- Revelation 22:1-2 “And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month.” So the tree of life grows in the midst of the paradise of God, the New Jerusalem, on the banks of the river of life, which proceeds from the throne of God. That is the paradise of the New Testament- the third heaven, where the tree of life is, and where God maintains His throne. Whoever, therefore goes to paradise goes into the presence of God. Paradise is not under the earth in Hades, as some believe. You understand all this literally? God is some place above outer space where a tree grows? I throw in the towel and agree with you. If one goes the Sola Scriptura route and accepts only the protestant canon then one seems forced to also adopt the OT understanding of death and soul sleep in a place (if only as metaphor) such as Sheol/hades/netherworld, an understanding of death shared with Mesopotamian pagan mythology. It seems to be Paul’s understanding as well with resurrection added as a hopeful conclusion. This seems to be the only possibility supported by scripture of the protestant canon. I thank God I am Catholic and not restricted to such an arcane notion. We welcome the influence of Greek philosophy particularly in regard to soul theory that was in much need of development. And thank God for the early apologists who were able to express Christian faith in philosophic terms, articulating it in its own developing orthodox system such that it could spread to the ends of the earth. And thank God also for the Deuterocanonical books of the Bible that take the OT concept of soul sleep in Sheol and lift it to God’s presence for the just even before bodily resurrection. This begs the question: Was Paul and those who shared his world view wrong about the soul in that period after death before resurrection? Well, he was certainly wrong about the proximity of the second coming of Jesus. These issues draw attention to the need to distinguish between the human input and the divine input in the Bible, inputs that are too often blurred and confused attributing human input to God. The Word of God is not in our hands so much to be a description of how things work as it is to be a light for meaning, purpose and inspiration. Whether talking about creation, flood gates in the sky, the netherworld, or the second coming of Jesus if one fixates on the technical how, treating the Bible as though it were a cook book with handy recipes for answers to any question, one misses the whole point. That point being the goodness, orderliness, love, hope and life that come from God alone. And I am glad that we don't read the Bible for its scientific or cosmological instruction. So yes, I thank God that as a Catholic not only am I not restricted to a Sola Scriptura approach to the protestant Canon but I am not restricted to a world view of several thousand years ago. And I don’t expect the Bible to tell me how the cosmos is structured, when it will end, or how it will end. We understand God to be operative through philosophy, science and orthodoxy, a living and active God bringing us to a fullness of truth that is otherwise unavailable. You may find soul sleep in Hades satisfactory and take it as a revealed truth but I and orthodox Christianity do not. Thank you for the discussion though. I never realized that soul sleep is the logical conclusion of Sola Scriptura. I wonder how many Protestants do.
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Post by Protestant on Aug 7, 2003 17:54:16 GMT -5
Isaiah 14: 4-11. “…you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say: ‘ How has the oppressor ceased, the golden city ceased! The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked, The sceptre of the rulers; He who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke, He who ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted and no one hinders. The whole earth is at rest and quiet; They break forth into singing. Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you, And the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since you were cut down, no woodsman has come up against us.’ Hell from beneath is excited about you, to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the dead for you, all the chief ones of the earth; it has raised up from their thrones, all the kings of the nations. They all shall speak and say to you: ‘Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us? Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, and worms cover you.”
This pkmtyolpage in the Old Testament is used to try to prove that the dead in their graves are infused with life. And the grave is a place of activity and life rather than silent death. There is no mention of heaven or hell here just the grave where decomposing bodies are turning back to the dust from whence they came. This pkmtyolpage is a taunt against the King of Babylon who has died and now is in his grave. The grave is seen as the great equaliser. All the riches and the splendour of Kings have turned to nothing. As the king of Babylon enters the grave, the other deceased kings that were killed by the king of Babylon taunt him saying you have now become like us, food for worms and maggots. This gives the distinct impression that the grave is full of life. But the cypress trees are also rejoicing over the downfall of the king of Babylon. The cedars of Lebanon talk and say ‘since you were cut down no woodsman has come against us’.
It is obvious that the story is all imagery not to be taken literally. The dead being infused with life in their graves is about as literal as talking cedars and singing cypress trees.
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Post by Protestant on Aug 7, 2003 17:58:31 GMT -5
well at least you admit that Roman theology is not in the bible but is just pagan Greek mythology.
Methodist-Congregationalist clergyman, Amos Phelps (1805-1874):
"This doctrine [of natural immortality] can be traced through the muddy channels of a corrupted Christianity, a perverted Judaism, and pagan philosophy, and a superstitious idolatry, to the great instigator of mischief in the garden of Eden. The Protestants borrowed it from the Catholics, the Catholics from the Pharisees, the Pharisees from the pagans, and the pagans from the old serpent who first preached the doctrine amid the lowly bowels of Paradise to an audience all too willing to hear and heed the new and fascinating theology: 'Ye shall not surely die."'
The apocrypha and the deuterocanonical books were rejected as uninspired and heretical because they contained statements contrary to the writings of the Hebrew Old Testament. ie, The immortality of the soul doctrine.
“...for while you believe that the soul is created and yet is made immortal by God according to the doctrine of Plato...” “Josephus’ discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades.” Kregal publications Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA. 49501. (1981).
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Post by RealistState on Aug 7, 2003 20:50:12 GMT -5
well at least you admit that Roman theology is not in the bible but is just pagan Greek mythology. Unfortunately, this "smacks" of Alexander Hislop theology. Hopefully I can come back later to discuss this fallacy.
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Post by RealistState on Aug 7, 2003 21:13:44 GMT -5
Protestant: I have reviewed the portion of "Josephus Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades", and there seems to be an important sentence preceding and following that was left out. You can find the full text here: www.doig.net/JHades.html[/i], and this in time, be not incredulous; but believe that God is able, when he hath raised to life that body which was made as a compound of the same elements, to make it immortal; for it must never be said of God, that he is able to do some things, and unable to do others. We have therefore believed that the body will be raised again; for although it be dissolved, it is not perished; for the earth receives its remains, and preserves them; and while they are like seed, and are mixed among the more fruitful soil, they flourish, and what is sown is indeed sown bare grain, but at the mighty sound of God the Creator, it will sprout up, and be raised in a clothed and glorious condition, though not before it has been dissolved, and mixed [with the earth]. So that we have not rashly believed the resurrection of the body; for although it be dissolved for a time on account of the original transgression, it exists still, and is cast into the earth as into a potter's furnace, in order to be formed again, not in order to rise again such as it was before, but in a state of purity, and so as never to he destroyed any more. And to every body shall its own soul be restored. And when it hath clothed itself with that body, it will not be subject to misery, but, being itself pure, it will continue with its pure body, and rejoice with it, with which it having walked righteously now in this world, and never having had it as a snare, it will receive it again with great gladness. But as for the unjust, they will receive their bodies not changed, not freed from diseases or distempers, nor made glorious, but with the same diseases wherein they died; and such as they were in their unbelief, the same shall they be when they shall be faithfully judged. [/size][/quote] I italisized the phrase you quoted to highlight it. As you can see, when read in context, it would appear to have a different meaning to what Josephus was expressing.
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Post by keikikoka on Aug 7, 2003 21:52:20 GMT -5
I was under the impression that Gods city, where the river and tree of life are, is on the new earth?
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Post by Heart4Him on Aug 7, 2003 22:53:51 GMT -5
Protestant: I have reviewed the portion of "Josephus Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades", and there seems to be an important sentence preceding and following that was left out. You can find the full text here: www.doig.net/JHades.htmlI italisized the phrase you quoted to highlight it. As you can see, when read in context, it would appear to have a different meaning to what Josephus was expressing. Interesting how providing the text around a quote can change the apparent meaning! Obviously Josephus, a Jew from a priestly family, believed that the soul existed after death separate from the body until the future time that body is resurrected.
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Post by Protestant on Aug 7, 2003 23:42:33 GMT -5
i have the writings of Josephus and have read the statement in context. The Greeks did not believe in the resurrection. they believed that once the body was gone it was gone forever. But they held that the soul was deathless and survived the body. Josephus believed in the pagan Greek idea of the immortality of the soul which he forcefully says comes not from the scriptures but from Plato, and combind it with the hebrew bible doctrine of the resurrection of the dead. Most churches teach this same nonsence saying that at the resurrection the soul will be reunited with the body.
Notice the striking similarity between Joseohus discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades and the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.
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Post by Protestant on Aug 7, 2003 23:50:43 GMT -5
Yes and if you took the time to read the whole article you would have found that his belief on consciousness in death are from Plato not from scripture. Like many Pharisees in his day he had abandoned the doctrine of soul-sleep as taught in the bible and have accepted platonic philosophy instead. This heresy was largely brought into the jewish nation by Philo of Alexandria
Philo of Alexandria. (20BC – 47AD) This famous Alexandrian scholar became the most conspicuous champion of the immortality of the soul concept that he derived chiefly from Plato. Flourishing at the beginning of the Christian era he contributed materially to the acceptance of the immortal soul concept among both Jews and Christians. He was the most distinguished of all Hellenic Jewish scholars. He was a native and life long resident of Alexandria. His life completely spanned the 33-year life of Jesus and he was contemporaneous with the early activities of the apostles as well. Philo came from a rich and influential priestly family and had a Pharisaic background. He received the highest Jewish and Greek education of the times and was intimately acquainted with Platonic philosophy, so much so that he was called the ‘Jewish Plato’. Philo taught that death was a separation of the immortal soul from the body. The unbodied soul does not die. It is inextinguishable and deathless. Philo did more than any other single individual of the Hebrew race to do away with the original teachings of the bible on the origin, nature, and destiny of man.
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Post by genesda on Aug 8, 2003 4:59:28 GMT -5
You understand all this literally? God is some place above outer space where a tree grows? I throw in the towel and agree with you. If one goes the Sola Scriptura route and accepts only the protestant canon then one seems forced to also adopt the OT understanding of death and soul sleep in a place (if only as metaphor) such as Sheol/hades/netherworld, an understanding of death shared with Mesopotamian pagan mythology. It seems to be Paul’s understanding as well with resurrection added as a hopeful conclusion. This seems to be the only possibility supported by scripture of the protestant canon. I thank God I am Catholic and not restricted to such an arcane notion. We welcome the influence of Greek philosophy particularly in regard to soul theory that was in much need of development. And thank God for the early apologists who were able to express Christian faith in philosophic terms, articulating it in its own developing orthodox system such that it could spread to the ends of the earth. And thank God also for the Deuterocanonical books of the Bible that take the OT concept of soul sleep in Sheol and lift it to God’s presence for the just even before bodily resurrection. This begs the question: Was Paul and those who shared his world view wrong about the soul in that period after death before resurrection? Well, he was certainly wrong about the proximity of the second coming of Jesus. These issues draw attention to the need to distinguish between the human input and the divine input in the Bible, inputs that are too often blurred and confused attributing human input to God. The Word of God is not in our hands so much to be a description of how things work as it is to be a light for meaning, purpose and inspiration. Whether talking about creation, flood gates in the sky, the netherworld, or the second coming of Jesus if one fixates on the technical how, treating the Bible as though it were a cook book with handy recipes for answers to any question, one misses the whole point. That point being the goodness, orderliness, love, hope and life that come from God alone. And I am glad that we don't read the Bible for its scientific or cosmological instruction. So yes, I thank God that as a Catholic not only am I not restricted to a Sola Scriptura approach to the protestant Canon but I am not restricted to a world view of several thousand years ago. And I don’t expect the Bible to tell me how the cosmos is structured, when it will end, or how it will end. We understand God to be operative through philosophy, science and orthodoxy, a living and active God bringing us to a fullness of truth that is otherwise unavailable. You may find soul sleep in Hades satisfactory and take it as a revealed truth but I and orthodox Christianity do not. Thank you for the discussion though. I never realized that soul sleep is the logical conclusion of Sola Scriptura. I wonder how many Protestants do. I'm glad you're happy with your Rcc. By the way, Greek paganism is not the only thing that's accepted in the Rcc. VooDoo is practiced in it in some countries and other pagan practices are also allowed depending on where that particular church is located.
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