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Post by genesda on Aug 1, 2003 0:30:23 GMT -5
[quote author=Pietro
: 14 Like sheep they are destined for the grave, and death will feed on them. The upright will rule over them in the morning; their forms will decay in the grave, far from their princely mansions. 15 But God will redeem my life from the grave; he will surely take me to himself.
Other translation use ‘Sheol” instead of “the grave”
Clearly there is the hope of something of the self going to God. Yes, the whole self at the resurrection. Nothing goes to God before that time.
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Post by genesda on Aug 1, 2003 0:36:20 GMT -5
[quote author=Pietro
This is all a fine exercise if we are interested in exploring how the ancients reflected on death and what lies beyond, what there hopes and fears were. But I believe we do a serious disservice to Holy Scripture if we attribute to it teaching God never intended to impart. The Bible is a theological masterpiece not a scientific text book. It is not intended to teach us cosmology (Paul’s third heaven) or how nature works, “he makes lightening produce the rain”. Nor is it intended to make a definitive statement on “man’s makeup”.[/u]
It certainly does give the definitive makeup of man. The dust of the ground and God's spirit are a living soul. That is not a parable, but a descriptive event.
It is intended to inspire hope in the goodness and ultimate mercy of God. To extract quotes to support various arguments is often a degrading process for the inspired texts. And yes, even the Catholic Church is guilty of that.
If Greek “immortal soulism’ influenced Hebrew thinking perhaps it was because it made sense to them. I can find no indication that Jesus did not ascribe to it something like it. His whole message is eternal life. The concept of “soul sleep’ sounds more like a metaphor for the mysterious reality of death with which we must all grapple.
We need to give the human authors whom God inspired some degree of literary freedom. There is hyperbole, metaphor, exhortation, parable, history, and theology all expressed through humans of a particular time and world view. To fixate on objective facts one tries to justify with a scriptural reference is to miss the main point of scripture, its subjective witness to the power of God in the lives of the inspired authors. Not that it is devoid of historical information or definitive statements. But that only accentuates the need for guidance when reading scripture.
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Post by genesda on Aug 1, 2003 0:37:54 GMT -5
Is a lying website the best you can do?
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Post by genesda on Aug 1, 2003 0:48:46 GMT -5
There's that term again. genesda back in post 13 of this thread seem to indicate that Alexandrian pharisees is not found in the Bible and is an interpreptation of SDA. BTW, genesda has indicated in another thread on the Discussion board that he does not trust any early writings as they may have been corrupted by the Catholic Church. Correction. We were speaking of the "early fathers" of the Roman church who wouldn't think anything of lying to advance Rome, which they did at every turn. There are many documents that are not in Rome's hands, and why do you try to switch this to me? Are you saying you can't answer Protestants reply, therefore you switch to something else?
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Post by genesda on Aug 1, 2003 0:56:29 GMT -5
I differ with you. And that still does not explain the idea of Jesus using false theology to teadch a truth. He presents the story of Abraham's bosum as existing. If He didn't believe such a place existed, He wouldn't have used it. He didn't use lies to teach. The writings of Josephus are not inspired, not canon. He had many flaws in his writings, and had a bad habit of exaggerating things and promoting his own views. Whether the Alexandrian Jews had a unique view of immortal souls, it still does not mean that is who Jesus was talking to. That is unfounded. No one has referred to Joephus as being inspired, but he certainly was capable of relating history. That doesn't take inspiration, only knowledge. So what's your point? Your argument is getting ridiculous. There is no teaching of an immortal soul in the scriptures and the scriptures state plainly that "only God hath immortality". They also state plainly that souls die, and that means NO IMMORTALITY.
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Post by Protestant on Aug 1, 2003 3:53:00 GMT -5
The inconsistencies of a literal interpretation of the imagery of the parable and the teachings of Jesus are set forth as follows.
PARABLE Imagery (1) Death = conscious living. (2) Wicked punished in Hades before the judgement. (3) Rewards given at death. (4) Man has an immortal soul. (5) The lost have life without Christ. TEACHINGS OF CHRIST (1) Death = unconscious sleep. (2) Wicked destroyed in Gehenna after the judgement. (3) Rewards given at the resurrection. (4) God alone is immortal. (1 Tim 6:15-16) (5) Only he who has the Son has life.
If you accept the parable as literal you have to reject the rest of the bible. If you accept the truth of the bible you must reject a literal interpretation of the parable. The truth of the bible and the illustrations of the parable are not only contrary to each other they are mutually destructive. If one is true the other is false. Why would Christ construct a moral lesson that teaches us that our wealth is not evidence of divine favour and that our destiny is forever fixed at death? And use as a background to it, illustrations that are diametrically opposed to the rest of the bible? The answer to this question lies in an understanding of the beliefs of the people he was talking to. This parable was specifically addressed to the pharisees.(Luke 16:14)
The Alexandrian Pharisees beliefs regarding the state of the dead. To find out what the pharisees believed we must ask a pharisee. A pharisee and historian by the name of Josephus has recorded for posterity part of an address he gave to the Greeks concerning the pharisees belief about hades and the state of the dead. Josephus - Antiquities of the Jews Book 18 ch1 sec 3. “They (the pharisees) also believe that souls have an immortal vigour in them and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life, and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and to live again.”
It must be noted that it was only the Alexandrian Pharisees who accepted the pagan Greek idea of the immortality of the soul. These pharisees believed that man had an immortal soul that lived inside a mortal body. When the mortal body died the immortal soul went to a subterraneous cavern to be punished or to paradise to receive rewards. The souls in paradise will eventually be raised from the dead when there will be a resurrection of the body. This body will be raised immortal and the immortal souls will be reunited with their bodies.
It must be noted that the Alexandrian pharisees did not obtain these beliefs on the state of the dead from the Old Testament. They obtained it from the writings of the Apocrypha, the Pseudepigrapha, and from a Jewish Platonic philosopher named Philo of Alexandria. Over a period of some two hundred years prior to Christ, tangent positions had been developing under the impact of Platonic philosophy. Thus the concept that Hades contained two chambers appeared in 4Esra 4:41 along with the idea that the righteous inhabit one chamber (Wisdom of Solomon) while the wicked are accursed, scourged, and tormented in the other (1 Enoch 22:9-13). The Midrash on Ruth 1:7 likewise assigns one chamber to the righteous with the wicked to the other. The visibility of one company to the other in the respective chambers is similarly in the Midrash on Eccl 7:14 and the wicked see the angels guard the righteous (4 Ezra 7:86).
4 Ezra: 85-95 tells of the welcoming of the righteous by companies of ministering angels. 4 Maccabees13: 17 mention the righteous as welcomed in Hades by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And finally the righteous are privileged to sit in Abrahams lap (The Talmud).
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Post by Protestant on Aug 1, 2003 4:04:40 GMT -5
HOW DID PAGAN PLATONIC PHILOSOPHY ENTER GOD’S CHURCH? After the close of the Old Testament canon about 425 BC a series of Apocryphal and pseudopigraphical Jewish writings began to appear. These ranged in time between 200 BC and 100 AD. In these writings are found two distinctly opposing views on the origin, nature, and destiny of man. These two views are: (1) Conditionalism: Man is a candidate for immortality but does not possess it naturally. Mans body, mind, soul, and spirit are mortal and that death is an unconscious sleep. Immortality is a gift from God given to His followers on the day of the resurrection on the condition that man has accepted the God’s covenant of salvation. The wicked that reject this condition suffer the punishment of eternal death. Fire being the method of execution. (2) Immortal-soulism: the idea that man has an immortal soul living inside a mortal body. That man is naturally immortal apart from God and therefore man is conscious in death. God’s true followers enter paradise at death while the immortal wicked suffer for eternity in an underground pit of fire. Philo of Alexandria. (20BC – 47AD) This famous Alexandrian scholar became the most conspicuous champion of the immortality of the soul concept that he derived chiefly from Plato. Flourishing at the beginning of the Christian era he contributed materially to the acceptance of the immortal soul concept among both Jews and Christians. He was the most distinguished of all Hellenic Jewish scholars. He was a native and life long resident of Alexandria. His life completely spanned the 33-year life of Jesus and he was contemporaneous with the early activities of the apostles as well. Philo came from a rich and influential priestly family and had a Pharisaic background. He received the highest Jewish and Greek education of the times and was intimately acquainted with Platonic philosophy, so much so that he was called the ‘Jewish Plato’. Philo taught that death was a separation of the immortal soul from the body. The unbodied soul does not die. It is inextinguishable and deathless. Philo did more than any other single individual of the Hebrew race to do away with the original teachings of the bible on the origin, nature, and destiny of man. Athenagorus (190 AD) The concept of the innate immortality of the soul as a ‘Christian doctrine’ did not appear in the writings of the church fathers until towards the close of the second century AD. The Christian church prior to that time did not believe this doctrine. This doctrine was introduced into the Christian church by a Greek philosopher named ‘Athenagorus’ (190.AD) He nominally accepted Christianity while still holding to the beliefs of Philos Neoplatonic philosophy on the nature and destiny of man despite its conflict with Christian doctrines. Athenagorus was the first church father to publicly embrace the immortal - soul doctrine and to advocate it on a purely Platonic basis. Tertulian of Carthage ( 240 AD) This theologian was the first man to introduce the doctrine of endless torment for the wicked into the Christian church. To sustain it he confessedly altered the sense of Scripture and the meaning of words so as to interpret death as eternal misery, destruction as pain, and consume as anguish. For the wicked, death became another phase of endless immortal life. Immortal suffering without ever ceasing to exist. Tertillian was the first to formulate the concept of universal immortality and endless torment into a coordinated system. St. Augustine of Hippo (430 AD) It was Augustine’s great influence that brought about the general acceptance by the church at large of the belief in the deathlessness of all souls and endless torment in fire for the wicked. His fundamental view was that death means endless life rather than cessation of existence. It was the powerful advocacy by Augustine of these two doctrines that they became generally accepted by the medieval church and became the dominant view for a thousand years. It should be noted that before his conversion to Christianity Augustine had written a book giving sixteen reasons for believing in the immortality of the soul. He was committed to this pagan doctrine before becoming a Christian. When he became a Christian he brought with him pagan doctrines he had adopted in his pre-Christian days. here is a good book to read on the subject. www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/
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Post by RealistState on Aug 1, 2003 4:44:40 GMT -5
Correction. We were speaking of the "early fathers" of the Roman church who wouldn't think anything of lying to advance Rome, which they did at every turn. There are many documents that are not in Rome's hands, and why do you try to switch this to me? Are you saying you can't answer Protestants reply, therefore you switch to something else? Absolutely not. Just trying to find out if what Joesphus has to say is acceptable.
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Post by Pietro on Aug 1, 2003 9:34:21 GMT -5
I agree that Paul’s understanding of the human person and the cosmos pretty much is as you or your source have stated, an Old Testament view of the universe with room for further development.
Ok, how many agree that this cannot be taken literally? Actually, I would be one. But then it would still say little about lwhat happens between death and resurrection.
That is a possibility but I do not think a single Bible has your suggested punctuation. More likely they are simply two different memories from two different sources.
Now we are back to a literal rather than symbolic meaning?
And when Jesus preached to the dead were they sleeping or conscious of what he said?
Eph 4:9-10 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[3] ? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
1 Peter 4:6 6For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
And just what was it that appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration prior to resurrection? Flesh and blood?What was the ghost of the prophet Samual doing talking to Saul. Is a ghost a spiritual entity? How would it be different from a soul?
The more time I spend at this forum the more grateful I am to have a living tradition, two thousand years of collective wisdom, to sort things out.
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Post by Pietro on Aug 1, 2003 9:56:09 GMT -5
Ok, Soul Sleepers, let me get this straight. Upon death the spirit leaves the body and returns to God. The body dies and turns to dust. The soul, which is produced by the combination of God's spirit and flesh basically ceases to exist until the resurrection. is that also then, personal identity and ego?
At the resurrection God's spirit returns to the dust, reconstituting it with the same soul for a judgement. As a result of that judgement the body is either burned and dies again with an extingushment of the soul or the body is glorified in some way with the soul and goes to God with the spirit.
Is this what you believe?
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Post by Protestant on Aug 1, 2003 17:48:53 GMT -5
Ephesians 4:8-10 “ ‘When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men.’ (Now this, ‘He ascended’- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
After Jesus was crucified He was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea. This is what Paul means by ‘descended into the lower parts of the earth’. On the third day Christ was resurrected from the grave and then ascended into heaven in a physical form. But there was also a whole multitude of people who were resurrected from their graves when Jesus Himself was resurrected.
Matt 27:50-53. “And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. Then behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after the resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.”
When Jesus yielded up His spirit it simply means that He stopped breathing and died. At His resurrection many dead saints were resurrected with Him. These resurrected saints are a trophy and a testimony to the power of God and of the resurrection of Christ. They went into Jerusalem to report the resurrection of Christ at the same time that the Jewish priests and rulers were spreading lying reports saying that the body of Christ had been stolen. The priests even bribed the Roman soldiers who saw the resurrection, to admit to a capital offence by saying that the disciples had stolen the body of Christ while they were guarding it. (See Matt 28:11-15).
These resurrected ones were later taken to heaven in bodily form with Christ as a sample of all the saved that will be taken to heaven at the Second Advent of Christ. The apostle Paul when speaking of the return of Jesus to heaven says, “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive…” Ephesians 4:8. The saints who were held captive in death by Satan were recaptured by the greater power of Christ. At His ascension He led this recaptured group back to heaven. Thus there are a number of people who are in heaven with Christ. But the only way any of them have gotten there is by a special resurrection or translation. The rest of the saints are still in their graves asleep waiting for the resurrection at the return of Christ.
I Thessalonians 4:16-17 “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord”.
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Post by Protestant on Aug 1, 2003 18:01:13 GMT -5
death here could refer to spiritual death. dead in tresspkmtyolpes and sins.
Matthew 17:1-8 “Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, ‘Lord, it is good for us to be here; if you wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah’. While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!’ And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. But Jesus came and touched them and said, ‘Arise, and do not be afraid.’ When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.
The Bible makes it quite clear that there are a number of people who once lived on this earth who are now living in heaven. The Bible is also quite clear that there are only two ways to be taken to heaven: either by a physical resurrection from the dead where you literally get out of your grave, or by being translated bodily to without dying. There are no exceptions. There are no disembodied spirits or ghosts of men in heaven.
The earliest example of a person being translated is Enoch. Enoch was the seventh generation from Adam (Jude14). Heb 11:5 “By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him.” see also Gen 5:23-24. Moses himself was the first to be raised from the dead. Romans 5:14 ‘…death reigned from Adam to Moses…’ death ceased to reign with the resurrection of Moses. He died and was buried (Deut 34:5-6). Just when he was raised from the dead we do not know but there is recorded a struggle between Michael the Archangel and Satan over the body of Moses as to whether the Archangel had the right to bring him from the grave. Jude 9.
The next example of a person being translated is Elijah the prophet. Elijah did not die. He was transported to heaven alive by a fiery chariot. 2 Kings 2:11 “Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” We see Moses and Elijah later on in the gospels at a special meeting with Jesus. Jesus led Peter, James, and John to a high mountain by themselves. Jesus was transfigured before them. The face of Jesus shone like the sun and his clothes became as white as the light. The disciples saw Moses and Elijah talking with Christ. They were talking to Jesus about His death at Jerusalem (Luke 9:30-31). These two men represent the two cpkmtyolles of all humanity that make up the saved. Elijah represents the cpkmtyoll translated without dying and Moses represents the cpkmtyoll resurrected from their graves.
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Post by Protestant on Aug 1, 2003 18:04:37 GMT -5
1Samuel 28: 3-20 “Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had lamented for him and buried him in Ramah, in his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and spiritists out of the land. Then the Philistines gathered together, and came and encamped at shunem. So Saul gathered all Israel together and they encamped at Gilboa. When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly. And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets. Then Saul said to his servants, ‘Find me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and enquire of her.’ And his servants said to him, ‘in fact, there is a woman who is a medium at En Dor.’ So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, ‘Please conduct a séance for me, and bring up for me the one I shall name to you.’ Then the woman said to him, ‘Look, you know what Saul has done, and how he has cut off the mediums and the spiritists from the land. Why then do you lay a snare for my life, to cause me to die? And Saul swore to her by the Lord saying, ‘As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.’ Then the woman said, ‘Whom shall I bring up for you?’ And he said, ‘Bring up Samuel for me.’ When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, ‘Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!’ And the king said to her, ‘Do not be afraid. What do you see?’ And the woman said to Saul, ‘I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.’ So he said to her, ‘What is his form?’ And she said, ‘An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.’ And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Now Samuel said to Saul. ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ And Saul answered, ‘ I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.’ Then Samuel said; ‘ So why do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? ‘And the Lord had done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbour, David. Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amelek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.’ Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel.”
The Prophet Samuel was dead. He is in his grave waiting the resurrection when Jesus the life giver shall call him from the tomb at the second advent of Christ. In obedience to the law of God king Saul had put all the spiritists and mediums out of the land. Then the time came when the Philistines were attacking Israel again. Now Saul enquires of the Lord, not for the pardon of his sins but because of fear of the Philistines. God had ceased communicating with Saul. Because Saul had always rejected the words of Samuel God’s chosen messenger, he had exiled David who was the chosen of God to be the next king. And he had also killed the priests of the Lord at Nob. Therefore God refuses to answer him. If Saul had repented of his sins and enquired of the Lord the Lord would have answered him. So now Saul does the unthinkable. He tries to communicate with the dead prophet Samuel through a condemned agent of Satan.
A medium. - In the original Hebrew of the biblical texts, the woman is identified by the phrase, "There is at Endor a woman Behabalth-Ob." This phrase can be translated several different ways. In some translations, Ob means "python," which could refer to a literal serpent or an evil spirit. Therefore, Behabalth-Oh could mean that the woman "owns" a python or is "owned by" (i.e. possessed by) a python. The Latin Vulgate calls the witch of Endor a pythonissa or mulier pythonem habens, meaning a woman who tells fortunes by consulting a python or conjured spirit.
There are some people who take the position that the prophet Samuel was actually present at the interview with Saul. If as claimed by some, Samuel was in heaven, he must have been summoned there either by the power of God or by Satan. No-one for a moment would believe that a woman of Satan had the power to call a holy prophet of God down from heaven. Nor can we believe that God summoned Samuel to the witches cave; for the Lord had already refused to communicate with Saul by dreams, Urim or prophets which were Gods own means of communication. And God did not bypkmtyolp them to deliver the message through an agent of Satan. The message itself is sufficient to determine its origin. Its object was not to lead Saul to repentance for his sins but to tell him the lie that God had become his enemy and to urge him on to ruin. This is not the work of God but of Satan. This act of Saul is given as one of the reasons why God rejected Saul and abandoned him to destruction.
1 Chronicles 10: 13-14 “So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.”
Here it is clearly said that Saul consulted a medium for guidance and not of the Lord. If he spoke to the real Samuel he would have been enquiring of the Lord because prophets are God’s messengers. He did not communicate with the real Samuel the prophet of the Lord. But through a condemned agent of Satan, Saul held communication with a demon (one of Satan’s angels) pretending to be the prophet Samuel. Satan could not present the real Samuel, but he did present a counterfeit to serve his purpose of deception. This deception cost Saul his eternal life.
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Post by Protestant on Aug 1, 2003 18:09:56 GMT -5
Yes this is what the bible teaches.
The more i spend on this board the more grateful i am that i have the truth from the bible without the foolishness brought into the church over the past 2000 yrs by dumb thoelogians and other heretics to corrupt it.
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Post by RealistState on Aug 1, 2003 18:15:57 GMT -5
Matt 27:50-53. “And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. Then behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after the resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.” When Jesus yielded up His spirit it simply means that He stopped breathing and died. At His resurrection many dead saints were resurrected with Him. I think you're misinterprepting this pkmtyolpage. If this is your proof, re-read the pkmtyolpage. This pkmtyolpage says that as Jesus died, then the saints were resurrected. Are you saying that the saints resurrection preceded Jesus's own? I don't see the link between what Paul said and what Matthew said. Which where we get the theology of millennial dispensationalism.
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