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Post by Traffic Demon on Jun 18, 2005 17:45:31 GMT -5
beth - "Hey traf, what about the human appendix? If our 'nearest' relative are monkeys and apes, how come they don't have one?"I'd love to know where you got your information, as all the modern apes, gibbons, and many species of monkeys possess appendices. From The vestigiality of the human vermiform appendix at The Talk.Origins Archive, Now, if it actually were the case that humans were unique in possessing an appendix, it would certainly be possible for the organ to have evolved in the 7-10 million years since our lineage diverged from the chimpanzees', but since your question is based on a false premise, it's really a moot point. --Y2Traf sparty
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Post by babysis on Jun 18, 2005 18:07:31 GMT -5
beth, what do you expect me to do? I have no power other than the power of prayer and love. It saddens me that you put stipulations of salvation that even God does not put on. Traff trusts his salvation in Jesus Christ alone, that makes him your brother whether you like it or not. You may not like the topics he talks about but they in NO WAY determine his salvation.
That is the why I stick up for Traff. Whether I agree with what he says or not (and I don't know if I do) I will defend my brother or sister's salvation. I know A LOT of Christians who are cruel and mean and do not show very many fruits (at least on the net) and there are times when Traff is mean it what he says as well and I don't like it. But even the mean people are my Christian brothers and sisters, they just haven't found the way to express Christ's love in a loving way. I just pray for those people and don't antagonize them causing them to sin again by being mean.
I pray you will find it in your heart to do the same. I will point it out once to them and then pray. If they are still behaving that way weeks or months down the road, I'll bring it to their attention again (usually always in private if possible) and then continue to pray. But I refuse to be mean about it and I refuse to not acknowledge them as my Christian brother or sister just because they aren't shaped into the mold I "think" Christians should be in. If I find myself having such a mold, I do what I can to shatter it because there is no mold. Christians come in all shapes and sizes and with different opinions and thoughts than our own. That doesn't make them less Christian.
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Post by babysis on Jun 18, 2005 18:09:45 GMT -5
beth,
I would also suggest you do more research on the founding fathers. Not all of them were Christians. If I recall correctly, they were all deist, but not all recognized God (meaning the God of Christianity which we know is the only True God)
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beth
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Post by beth on Jun 18, 2005 19:19:56 GMT -5
Traf, You had better check your facts again. The human appendix serves a purpose and apes and monkeys still don't have them.
You make an illogical conclusion, if our supposed mutual ancestors had them, and we have them, then monkeys and apes should have a true vestigal organ hanging out in their abdomens, but they don't.
So traf take your little post, print it and use it for toilet paper.
Have a nice life being rude to yourself and other real Christians and creationists.
Babysis, girl, you need to learn a few things.
Being nice and doing the right thing is not always synonymous. Being gentle doesn't mean being a pushover. Love and discipline go hand in hand, you are not going to find one without the other. And sometimes, whether you like it or not, you have to call a spade a spade. Now believe it or not, there are people who falsely claim to be Christian. Going to Church doesn't make you a Christain, neither does singing songs. Prayer doesn't make you one either. Satan believes in God and Jesus, so does that make him a Christian? No it doesn't. And just because a person says they accepted Christ as Lord, doesn't really mean they did. Did not Jesus himself say that their are people like that? And those same people that claimed to be His, that are not, are still going to hell.
I don't put stipulations on Gods Salvation, He does. When a person comes to the Lord in honesty, and accepts the Saving Grace of Jesus shed blood, that person belongs to God, not vice versa, God makes the rules, and it is all His deal. That newly saved soul is going to do whatever it takes to please God. They are going to WANT to follow Gods law so they don't sin anymore. They accept the Truth when it finds them, especially when said truth proves them wrong and in error. Such a person, while they may not like it, accepts it, learns and moves on, hopefully avoiding what ever difficulty they were having.
I don't really care what you think of me, but the above DOES NOT describe traf.
A person cannot and may not pick and choose what part of the Bible and Gods Word they want to believe or not believe, its the whole enchilada or nada. Do you really think that God Almighty is going to change His mind about His Law and His Word? I hate to tell you this, but He is not about to change anything for anyone for any reason. Not even an act of congress will accomplish that.
And whether you like it or not, there are times when one must be harsh and they may seem mean, especially when dealing with the hard headed and hard hearted. The fact is Christiantiy is not touch feely, lovey dovey, gooey eyed religion. It gets in your face, in your space, and it is going to CHANGE people. Sometimes that change isn't pleasant and fun, often times its hard, frustrating and yes even painful, as it forces, yes forces, one to contemplate their life choices, it forces one to take a long hard look at themselves, and then that same intolerant God demands that the individual change into what HE wants them to be, yes He accomplishes much of that change, but they have to WANT to change in the FIRST place.
Drunks must give up alcohol, drug addicts must give up their drugs, pagans must give up their old religion, all of it. Here again, one cannot pick and choose what part of the old life to keep in conjuction with the New Life in Christ. It doesn't work that way. No matter how much you want it to.
The description of a True Christian is in the Bible, for all to see, and it doesn't fit traf. Call him your brother if you like.
He who corrects a scoffer gets dishonor for himself, And he who reproves a wicked man gets insults for himself. Do not reprove a scoffer, lest he hate you, Reprove a wise man, and he will love you. Give [instruction] to a wise [man], and he will be yet wiser: teach a just [man], and he will increase in learning. The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding. Proverrbs 9:7-10.
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Post by babysis on Jun 18, 2005 19:33:43 GMT -5
Beth I will be praying that your heart will soften.
I am very aware that not everyone who goes to church or sings songs is a Christian. But it is not my place to claim they are not unless I see them worshipping Satan or "dissing" God or Jesus. Just because you don't like that Traff thinks God used evolution does not make him a non-Christian. I pray that some day you will come to understand that.
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Post by donkeydude on Jun 18, 2005 19:38:49 GMT -5
Donkeydude, I hate to aquaint you with reality, but I guess someone has to. Liberalism is what is wrong with America. Would you mind backing this up with a little evidence? Also, please don't fall back on abortion rights and gay rights...they are not a part of the liberal progessive agenda that is crucial to pull America forward. I strongly resent the fact you dare to suggest that liberal Americans are against the US Military. I buried my father in the Arlingtion National Cemetery just over a year ago. He was US Army Green Beret and the man who made the liberal I am today. I too joined the Army on my 17th birthday with his blessing and just last week I attended the funeral of another liberal who also happened to be a fraternity brother that was killed by a roadside bomb in Iraq. His mother wants an opportunity to speak with President George W. Bush. “I would give him a piece of my mind,” she said to me, sobbing, “and he wouldn’t like what I would tell him.” She blames Bush for the tragedy, a senseless death in a pointless war, she contends. I remember the oath I took very well and no where in that oath does it say that we are to fight an unjust war that causes some mother somewhere to lose a child each day.
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Post by Traffic Demon on Jun 19, 2005 1:17:06 GMT -5
beth - "Traf, You had better check your facts again."I need to check my facts? I not only made the claim that other primates have appendices, I backed it up with my source and the relevant literature. If you missed it, here's the link again - The vestigiality of the human vermiform appendix. All you've got on your side is your say-so, and as much as you creationists like to think otherwise, that means precisely zero. "The human appendix serves a purpose and apes and monkeys still don't have them."Funny, but the source I cited disagrees with you. Would you care to present the source for your claim? "You make an illogical conclusion, if our supposed mutual ancestors had them, and we have them, then monkeys and apes should have a true vestigal organ hanging out in their abdomens, but they don't."1. Humans have appendices. 2. The other species of modern apes have appendices. 3. Gibbons have appendices. 4. Many species of monkeys have appendices. 5. The best explanation for these facts is that those species share a common ancestry. 6. This common ancestry does not dictate that organs derived from the same tissues serve the same purpose in all species descended from that ancestor. If you're going to try to point out problems with any scientific principle, do make an effort to understand it first. "So traf take your little post, print it and use it for toilet paper."I'll do that, just as soon as you bring your evidence to the table. Smart money says the Earth crashes into the sun before that happens. "Have a nice life being rude to yourself and other real Christians and creationists."Oh, so now I'm a Christian, just not a "real Christian?" Care to cite chapter and verse where a Christian faith requires one to check their brain at the door when it comes to science? "When a person comes to the Lord in honesty"You're a fine one to be talking about honesty, you haven't even gotten that one down, as we've seen in this thread. "A person cannot and may not pick and choose what part of the Bible and Gods Word they want to believe or not believe, its the whole enchilada or nada."Have you been paying attention at all? I have never once expressed any measure of disbelief in even a single verse of the Bible. As always, if you disagree, you can feel free to sit at your computer making nasty faces at the screen, or if you'd like to have a change of pace and do something that carries weight, just point out the nearest relevant post. The same claim's been made by plenty of other creationists, and they've come up just as empty as you will if you go looking. --El Traffico Diablo Strong like bull
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beth
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Post by beth on Jun 20, 2005 16:27:01 GMT -5
Traf, When are you going to get tired of putting up the same old lame, wornout and tired old link? Why can't YOU post anything. Sitting behind your computer smugly pasting up links to someone elses stuff isn't very honest of you.
Lets see you do this on your own.
Oh by the way, your still wrong!
Vestigial organs do not exist. The so- called "vestigial organs" are believed by evolutionists to be parts of the human body that are no longer needed. These body parts are presumed to be "left- overs" from our ancestors, the monkeys. The organs include the appendix, the coccyx (tail bone), the pineal gland, the plica semilunaris, the tonsils, and the ear lobes.
Many medical doctors now agree that all of these organs have important functions in the human body and aren't vestigial in any sense. The appendix contains a rich blood supply which serves as some defense against cancer. The tail bone isn't where a monkey tail used to be, as Darwinians believe, but it instead provides support for the muscles which control elimination. The pineal gland contains important hormones which the body needs. The plica semilunaris helps to keep the eye cleansed of foreign particles. The tonsils help to keep foreign particles out of your child's throat, and they also help in fighting infection. Even the ear lobe has a purpose, for it helps to keep our ears warm during cold weather by providing them with a good blood supply. There are no vestigial organs.
And monkeys and apes, your so called nearest relatives, still don't have appendices.
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Post by Traffic Demon on Jun 20, 2005 23:10:07 GMT -5
beth - "Traf, When are you going to get tired of putting up the same old lame, wornout and tired old link?"When you can do better than simply claiming it to be lame, wornout, and tired. Your inability to do anything more than making unsupported claims is a testament to the complete lack of substance of your position. "Why can't YOU post anything."You're kidding, right? Have you read anything on these threads? When it comes to evidence, I'm the only one posting it. "Sitting behind your computer smugly pasting up links to someone elses stuff isn't very honest of you."Or at least it wouldn't be if I didn't give credit to the authors I link to. Hey look at that, at the top of the page, it says "Copyright © 2003 by Douglas Theobald, Ph.D." Credit given to the author, so all is well. But posting stuff without giving credit to the original author is bad. Yeah, bad. "Lets see you do this on your own."Why, when there exists over a century's worth of evidence which demonstrates the validity of evolutionary theory? Why do you insist that I reinvent the wheel? "Oh by the way, your still wrong!"Your saying so doesn't make it true. I know this is a wacky idea to a young Earth creationist, but try backing up your words with evidence. Don't just claim that I'm wrong, if I am wrong, show me. As always, you won't, because you can't. "Vestigial organs do not exist."Care to explain why whales and snakes have leg bones then? "The so- called 'vestigial organs' are believed by evolutionists to be parts of the human body that are no longer needed. These body parts are presumed to be 'left- overs' from our ancestors, the monkeys. The organs include the appendix, the coccyx (tail bone), the pineal gland, the plica semilunaris, the tonsils, and the ear lobes."And if you had bothered to read the article I linked to, you would see it demonstrated that the appendix actually is vestigial. And as always, evolutionary theory does not claim that humans evolved from monkeys, but that we share a common ancestor. Amazing that you think you can argue against the validity of evolutionary theory when you don't have any idea of what it says! "Many medical doctors now agree that all of these organs have important functions in the human body and aren't vestigial in any sense."Really? Which ones? Appealing to an unnamed authority hardly backs up your argument. "The appendix contains a rich blood supply which serves as some defense against cancer. The tail bone isn't where a monkey tail used to be, as Darwinians believe, but it instead provides support for the muscles which control elimination. The pineal gland contains important hormones which the body needs. The plica semilunaris helps to keep the eye cleansed of foreign particles. The tonsils help to keep foreign particles out of your child's throat, and they also help in fighting infection. Even the ear lobe has a purpose, for it helps to keep our ears warm during cold weather by providing them with a good blood supply."Of course, you're working with an incorrect definition of what it means for an organ to be vestigial - the term simply means that the organ no longer serves its original purpose. If the organ is later co-opted to a new function in a species, this does not mean it is not vestigial. "There are no vestigial organs."Leg bones in snakes and whales, try explaining them as anything but vestigial. We're all waiting. "And monkeys and apes, your so called nearest relatives, still don't have appendices."Right. Unfortunately for you, all the evidence that's been posted so far says that they do. All you've got on your side is your word and your credibility, which we're about to see isn't all that hot. Yeah, at first this was just going to be the standard batch of me shooting down the drivel of another creationist, but then I got to thinking... some of beth's words sound familiar. Hmm, such a model member of this board surely wouldn't have plagiarized one of her arguments, particularly in a post where she accused me of dishonesty, would she? Right.....? Now, if you'd rather believe that beth is completely incapable of plagiarism, don't visit FABLES AND FACTS ABOUT CREATION AND EVOLUTION, don't even think about scrolling down to the ninth topic on the page, and whatever you do, don't read where it says That's right, identical word for word, all the way down to the space between the hyphen and the rest of the word in so-called and left-overs. The site's got nothing that even resembles an accurate representation of science on it, but apparently beth feels that it's good enough not only to use, but to steal. It's bad enough that the creationists can't even make an effort to understand basic science, even worse that they don't read anything but each other's writings, but it's simply pathetic that they can't even distingush between honesty and dishonesty. Thanks a ton, beth, you've made the case against the credibility of creationists far more succinctly than I ever could. --Big Daddy Traf 'spect yo' daddy!
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Post by christian on Jun 21, 2005 9:52:47 GMT -5
Beth,
Don't waste your time arguing with Traffic Demon. His goal is to create disharmony between the followers of Christ. Realistically he knows that he can no more prove to us that Darwinism is true than we can prove to him that Genesis 1-11 is true.
God Bless, Andy.
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Post by Traffic Demon on Jun 21, 2005 11:21:23 GMT -5
I2AM4AndyChristianOmega7-11 1984 - "Don't waste your time arguing with Traffic Demon."
Translation - stop before you do any more harm to your cause.
"Realistically he knows that he can no more prove to us that Darwinism is true than we can prove to him that Genesis 1-11 is true."
Do try to read a little of what I've read, as I have never once denied that Genesis 1-11 is true.
--Y2Traf Oh, you didn't know?
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Post by christian on Jun 22, 2005 5:01:55 GMT -5
I2AM4AndyChristianOmega7-11 1986 - "Realistically he knows that he can no more prove to us that Darwinism is true than we can prove to him that Genesis 1-11 is true."Do try to read a little of what I've read, as I have never once denied that Genesis 1-11 is true. --Y2Traf Oh, you didn't know? Okay, give me some examples of you stating that Genesis 1-11 is literally true.....
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Jun 22, 2005 9:37:29 GMT -5
He never said that Genesis 1-11 were literally[/u][/i] true. He said that Genesis 1-11 were TRUE. Can you tell the difference?
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Post by Traffic Demon on Jun 22, 2005 12:05:21 GMT -5
I2AM4AndyChristianOmega7-11 1984 - "Okay, give me some examples of you stating that Genesis 1-11 is literally true"
See Philip's post, and try to realize that the world is bigger than you hope to make it.
--Traffic Beamon Topdeck like a champ
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Post by heathen76 on Jun 22, 2005 12:37:00 GMT -5
I2AM4AndyChristianOmega7-11 1986 - "Realistically he knows that he can no more prove to us that Darwinism is true than we can prove to him that Genesis 1-11 is true."Do try to read a little of what I've read, as I have never once denied that Genesis 1-11 is true. --Y2Traf Oh, you didn't know? Okay, give me some examples of you stating that Genesis 1-11 is literally true..... How many times has this been explained before? You mistakenly assume that nothing can be figuratively true because you seem to think that all truth is literal. That is your first stumbling block. The next is that you think that acting incredulous about everything (especially what certain terms mean and how they are used) does not lend you any credibility. It makes you look like someone with an inability to learn. Your constant argument over what a theory is and what it means in the scientific community is a prime example of this. Take it from a non-Christian: speaking from ignorance or a nasty angry stance (like beth does) does not help your case. It only serves to weaken it.
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