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Post by Pietro on Sept 22, 2005 8:34:03 GMT -5
In speaking of what we know you said: Here's the problem: a book is not support for me. Especially when some of it (not all - much of it is just dandy) is obviously not of God. If you do not understand my meaning here, then I am sorry. I cannot say it any better than that. It sounds to me like you are saying that there are claims that cannot be strictly verified because this knowledge transcends all ordinary forms of consciousness and cannot therefore be properly expressed. If by "a book" you mean the Bible we must remember that the Hebrews, while holding God to be a sacred mystery, used anthropomorphic language about God. They thought in concrete images rather than metaphysical concepts. It wasn't until the church used greek philosophy to defend itself that a more developed understanding came about. And yet, as we have seen, some reject any such development in favor of these more concrete images. I remember some on this forum sticking with the belief that God has a throne next to a river on some heavenly planet beyond the sky somewhere. Still, the image of God as a moral being, a personal being of Justice has valuable truth to it. And this is where I think your understanding of sin needs some help. You basically do not believe in "sin" right? And yet ther are certainly acts, words, and deeds that are offensive to others and to this aspect of God as a moral being who loves justce. Though the image is anthropomorphic it also has strong value and I think validity. I sure hope so. I wish I still had it for Halloween or something. I think what we find is a provisional relative sort of truth that serves us and that is why we have so many different systems. They involve some aspects of particular relative truths and because they are incomplete they seem incompatible at times. I thought I did.
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Post by k8reader on Sept 22, 2005 16:24:03 GMT -5
Hiya k8! Long time no see! Going well, but busy busy busy! I know what you mean! Easy! You said "what Jesus taught has been changed or ignored" Mis-quoting someone, would be an inaccuracy, or missing the mark, the literal meaning of the word sin. Continuing to quote you, you said: " - and, by the very ones who claim to be Christians" Now you are suggesting that it is Christians who mis-represent our Lord, and perhaps make false claims, that of being a Christian. Making a false claim, again, is sin, or something other then perfection. HELLO? You are being COMPLETELY judgmental You said: "they use it as an excuse to cause further separation and strife"; and “use their beliefs as a platform to judge and alienate” Are you NOT placing motives in front of someone's behavior? Are you NOT being critical of YOUR fellow man?? Come on Mr. Science guy! A non-judgmental comment would be something ELSE, such as differing positions on Christian theological viewpoints has been shown to lead to debate, separation and strife OR When Christians proclaim their beliefs, other people claim to feel judged and alienated.See, it’s easy to state things in a non-judgmental way! Maybe you’re judgmental, maybe you’re not – but your statements sure are! I don't see how they could. I can; however, see how the Holy Spirit could convict you of something that would make you defensive about what Christians do or don't believe. Judging, and evaluating again I see! It takes one to know one Heathen! Halleluiah!
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Post by Shirley on Sept 22, 2005 17:28:55 GMT -5
Gnostic, huh? Going by the definition, that covers alot of people ;D Who was Jesus? I've wondered why no one else had a record of him, ya know? Isn't it odd that about the only reference to him is in the bible? I love Jesus MORE then my next breath. More then my mother, my children, my father. They love Him the same way, that's why. Isn't that what Jesus said? "My Father loves you because you love Me." There, now there is just one more reference to Jesus that is NOT from the Bible! Shirley, why would you consistently define Jesus based on who follows Him? Instead, define Jesus with Jesus - you know better. I do not any longer define anyone based on their "followers". I've learned that one, some time ago. I also know that Christians come in many flavors, just as all people do. "You know better"..hmm..perhaps. But, how does one "define Jesus?"
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Post by k8reader on Sept 23, 2005 6:10:58 GMT -5
I do not any longer define anyone based on their "followers". I've learned that one, some time ago. This topic is about fear isn't it? Who was it that made you afraid Shirley? Did Jesus speak to you, and say if you have doubts and question me, you're going to Hell? Did JESUS say that? I have reason to doubt that Jesus said that, because in the Bible He accepted Thomas' doubt, and rpkmtyoleured Him -proved Himself to Him. In Luke, Zechariah doubted God, but God kept His Word anyway, and gave him the son He promised. In Genesis, God allows Abraham to argue with Him and question Him. David wrestled with God, and David at another time "burned with anger" against God. No, Shirley, the Bible is pretty clear that God does not condemn us for having doubts or for questioning Him. But, when people come along and say "Shirley! Why are you questioning God? Then the accuser comes along and says "you can't question God, and you have to understand why God does everything He does OR else, you are going to Hell" then you become afraid. After all - who was it that told us we would become like God, knowing good from evil?? We certainly believe we know good from evil, don't we? But, since everyone's idea of good and evil is different - then we obviously don't know good from evil, nor do we understand why God does what He does. Satan IS a liar. A while back you asked how can you tell if what you hear comes from God? I will repeat what I said back then. Since the communication of the Holy Spirit, our minds and Satan all travel along the same pathway, we must be very careful about what we attribute to the Holy Spirit. We do have something that helps us check - the Bible. I reason that if God's Word demonstrates that Jesus does not condemn us for doubts, or questions - then it wasn't Jesus who condemned you to Hell. Jesus has defined Himself. What does He say about Himself? Thanks for getting back to me!
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Post by christian on Sept 23, 2005 9:02:22 GMT -5
Of course Jesus still exists. We all do for all eternity. Is he still teaching? Sure. You don't need a book to learn, though. And yes, I DO know Jesus. Heathen, Truth is you know the false Christ. Would his name happen to be Lord Maitreya by any chance? If you know the true Christ, then you'll embrace His biblical teachings. You haven't done so far. If you are a true follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, then I suggest you change your username. God Bless, Andy.
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Post by heathen76 on Sept 23, 2005 11:39:01 GMT -5
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Post by christian on Sept 23, 2005 13:05:59 GMT -5
I am surprised that you have never heard of him, given your New Age background. He likes to be thought of as being the Christ, your Christ. I believe he has an Asian or Middle Eastern background. He is a false Christ.
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Post by heathen76 on Sept 23, 2005 14:05:07 GMT -5
I am surprised that you have never heard of him, given your New Age background. He likes to be thought of as being the Christ, your Christ. I believe he has an Asian or Middle Eastern background. He is a false Christ. Nope, can't say I've heard of him. After you listed the name I did a search to find out who he was. For the most part, I don't put a lot of stock in people that claim to be ascended masters incarnate. If they are or not, I don't really care. As for a New Age background, I would say this is true to an extent. I don't care about crystals, toning, astrology, candles, or the like very much. All that stuff is "fluffy" New Age stuff that makes for good newsprint and TV fare. It really has little to do with what I am interested in.
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Post by Shirley on Sept 23, 2005 16:16:05 GMT -5
I do not any longer define anyone based on their "followers". I've learned that one, some time ago. This topic is about fear isn't it? Who was it that made you afraid Shirley? I no longer have any fear..I let that go a long time ago..although I did briefly take it back. I cannot live with fear..nor guilt..it serves no purpose at this point in my life.. Also..I think I've mentioned this before too..Jesus has not spoken to me..
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Post by heathen76 on Sept 23, 2005 19:29:48 GMT -5
Hiya k8! Long time no see! Going well, but busy busy busy! I know what you mean! Easy! You said "what Jesus taught has been changed or ignored" Mis-quoting someone, would be an inaccuracy, or missing the mark, the literal meaning of the word sin. Continuing to quote you, you said: " - and, by the very ones who claim to be Christians" Now you are suggesting that it is Christians who mis-represent our Lord, and perhaps make false claims, that of being a Christian. Making a false claim, again, is sin, or something other then perfection. HELLO? You are being COMPLETELY judgmental You said: "they use it as an excuse to cause further separation and strife"; and “use their beliefs as a platform to judge and alienate” Are you NOT placing motives in front of someone's behavior? Are you NOT being critical of YOUR fellow man?? Come on Mr. Science guy! A non-judgmental comment would be something ELSE, such as differing positions on Christian theological viewpoints has been shown to lead to debate, separation and strife OR When Christians proclaim their beliefs, other people claim to feel judged and alienated.See, it’s easy to state things in a non-judgmental way! Maybe you’re judgmental, maybe you’re not – but your statements sure are! I don't see how they could. I can; however, see how the Holy Spirit could convict you of something that would make you defensive about what Christians do or don't believe. k8- I think that in order to be judgmental, there must be some judgment behind it. I am doing nothing of the sort. If you are reading what I am saying and filtering through your own judgmental process and thinking that I am being judgmental, then I can't do anything about that. I cannot help it if you put emotion into it. Seriously - do you honestly believe (with no sliver of doubt) that some christians (or members of any other religion) do not use their beliefs from that religion to judge and alienate others? Say for instance, the members of the US Senate and House of Representatives that consider themselves "good" christians by trying to pkmtyolp anti-gay legislature because of their beliefs? Or christians that bomb abortion clinics because they think Jesus wants them to? For Pete's sake, k8, the KKK considers themselves a christian organization! I am not judging anything - I am stating facts. If I were to say that all of these people were idiots or evil, then I would be judgmental. Read what I type and take it at face value. There is no emotion there save whatever you give it. I am not saying that all christians are lumped in with these folks. In fact, I have found the vast majority of christians that I know to be totally reasonable and loving people. People that marry their brains and sense of reason with their faith. It is those that use their religious beliefs to alienate and judge others in their day to day life that I consider to be the minority in any religion. Finally- Seriously, you are going to have to point out to me how I was judging anything there. Have a good weekend!
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Post by k8reader on Sept 24, 2005 9:25:18 GMT -5
I no longer have any fear..I let that go a long time ago..although I did briefly take it back. I cannot live with fear..nor guilt..it serves no purpose at this point in my life.. You didn't answer my question. WHO delivers fear? Who delivers guilt? WHO removes fear? Who removes guilt? You ALSO mentioned to me that you had forgotten that Jesus HAD spoken to you, and that you HAD heard His voice! So, I'll ask again. Was it Jesus who said you couldn't question Him? Was it Jesus who said you weren't allowed to have doubts? Was it Jesus who made you afraid? What does the Bible say about doubt? About fear? About guilt? I don't know you Shirley, but I see you. Where else can you go, Shirley?
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Post by k8reader on Sept 24, 2005 9:51:25 GMT -5
Easy! You said "what Jesus taught has been changed or ignored" Mis-quoting someone, would be an inaccuracy, or missing the mark, the literal meaning of the word sin. Continuing to quote you, you said: " - and, by the very ones who claim to be Christians" Now you are suggesting that it is Christians who mis-represent our Lord, and perhaps make false claims, that of being a Christian. Making a false claim, again, is sin, or something other then perfection. HELLO? You are being COMPLETELY judgmental You said: "they use it as an excuse to cause further separation and strife"; and “use their beliefs as a platform to judge and alienate” Are you NOT placing motives in front of someone's behavior? Are you NOT being critical of YOUR fellow man?? Come on Mr. Science guy! A non-judgmental comment would be something ELSE, such as differing positions on Christian theological viewpoints has been shown to lead to debate, separation and strife OR When Christians proclaim their beliefs, other people claim to feel judged and alienated.See, it’s easy to state things in a non-judgmental way! Maybe you’re judgmental, maybe you’re not – but your statements sure are! I don't see how they could. I can; however, see how the Holy Spirit could convict you of something that would make you defensive about what Christians do or don't believe. Ok Heathen, I'll try again. In the first instance you said they "use it as an excuse" what exactly does that mean? That means that someone wants to do a certain thing that they can't normally do without an excuse, such as missing cpkmtyoll. If you don't go to school, you need a note or excuse to do so. So, when you say they use it as an excuse, you are saying that they are doing something they should not do - THAT is making a judgment. If you believe judgments or being judgmental only involves emotional judgments, then you are not using the standard definition of the word. In order to communicate effectively, it is important to use the same definition. Here is one I found online. I bolded the definition of judgment and judgmental that I am referring to: judg•ment also judge•ment (jŭj'mənt) n. 1. The act or process of judging; the formation of an opinion after consideration or deliberation. 2. a. The mental ability to perceive and distinguish relationships; discernment: Fatigue may affect a pilot's judgment of distances. b. The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating: His judgment of fine music is impeccable. c. The capacity to assess situations or circumstances and draw sound conclusions; good sense: She showed good judgment in saving her money. See synonyms at reason. 3. An opinion or estimate formed after consideration or deliberation, especially a formal or authoritative decision: awaited the judgment of the umpire. 4. Law. a. A determination of a court of law; a judicial decision. b. A court act creating or affirming an obligation, such as a debt. c. A writ in witness of such an act. 5. An assertion of something believed. 6. A misfortune believed to be sent by God as punishment for sin. 7. Judgment The Last Judgment. judg•men•tal (jŭj-mĕn'tl) adj. 1. Of, relating to, or dependent on judgment: a judgmental error. 2. Inclined to make judgments, especially moral or personal ones: a marriage counselor who tries not to be judgmental.I also restated your judgmental statement, in a non-judgmental way to show what I meant. In science, I would liken judgment to opinion. In reporting laboratory findings, you certainly wouldn't state as a fact, that which is impossible to prove, would you? Therefore, how can you determine the motives of another person? How can you get into their heads or hearts to know WHY they act as they do? The definition of judgment and judgmental don't mention emotion at all, so I don't think the amount of emotion you or I put into a statement is at all relevant. Have great weekend yourself! I hope the sun is shing where you are!
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