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Post by parousia70 on Jul 27, 2003 17:25:37 GMT -5
There is nothing to indicate Adam could not have died physically if he had never eaten from the tree of knowledge.
Adam was required to access the tree of Life if he wanted to live physically forever. There is nothing to indicate Adam didn't have the choice to abstain from accessing the tree of life if he wanted while he was in the garden.
God did not force Adam to access the tree of Life, infact God gave Adam the choice to access it OR NOT.
Physical death was not a result of the fall, rather it became an insurmountable barrier between God and man after the fall. Jesus Christ has conqured that barrier and now physical death has been restored to it's original purpose; As Gods servant to bring man into a deeper level of Human existance, an existance that was ordained from the foundation of the world.
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 27, 2003 20:29:02 GMT -5
It is also possible it is speaking of the new heaven and the new earth although I have always heard it as to refering to the Millenium there is this pkmtyolpage: Isaiah 65 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. 24 And it shall come to pkmtyolp, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. again there are children so where are they coming from? upon further study of this pkmtyolpage I believe this is refering to the Millenium. that God would create a new order of things in heaven and on earth whereby animals are tame and people live to be at least one hundred. but when people still choose to sin in this perfect world God will create an actual new heaven and earth where there will be no sinners as all will have recieved glorified bodies.. another case of partial and then later fullfillment. I think that a lot of preterists see some of these partial fulfillments and say it is The fullfillment even though everything in the prophecy did not happen. like for example God did create a new order of things in the lives of believers and that has affected the world but not to the extent that it will in the Millenium. God likes to create pictures for us of things to come like Abraham sacrificing Isacc and Moses lifting up the servent in the wilderness. I remember my father telling me once that Moses's life was a picture of things to come and that when he struck the rock instead of speaking to it as God had told him to he messed with God's picture and that is why he was not alowed to enter the promised land. So God will make this world beutiful and sinners will still mess with it so he will send them to hell and take the rest of us to a new and completely perfect world where no sin at all is allowed.
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 27, 2003 23:46:37 GMT -5
upon further study of this pkmtyolpage I believe this is refering to the Millenium. that God would create a new order of things in heaven and on earth whereby animals are tame and people live to be at least one hundred. but when people still choose to sin in this perfect world God will create an actual new heaven and earth where there will be no sinners as all will have recieved glorified bodies.. another case of partial and then later fullfillment. I think that a lot of preterists see some of these partial fulfillments and say it is The fullfillment even though everything in the prophecy did not happen. like for example God did create a new order of things in the lives of believers and that has affected the world but not to the extent that it will in the Millenium. God likes to create pictures for us of things to come like Abraham sacrificing Isacc and Moses lifting up the servent in the wilderness. I remember my father telling me once that Moses's life was a picture of things to come and that when he struck the rock instead of speaking to it as God had told him to he messed with God's picture and that is why he was not alowed to enter the promised land. So God will make this world beutiful and sinners will still mess with it so he will send them to hell and take the rest of us to a new and completely perfect world where no sin at all is allowed. Hmmm except that Jesus came to make a way for us to live in this world. He prepared the way for us to gain eternal life through His sacrifice not so that all sinners would go to hell... What about if Adam had never sinned? What would happen? He would just stop the earth and let Adam and Eve get off? We have to look at God's purpose in creating Man. Why did He create Man? God is love, He created Man to show His love. How does He show this love? Believe on Him who was sent and you will have a personal relationship with the Living God...
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Post by Heart4Him on Jul 27, 2003 23:58:36 GMT -5
Yes, he did exaggerate, alot!, and write to glorify the Roman side. He became a historian for the Flavian family, which included Vespasian and Titus before the seige of Jerusalem. He was a beneficiary of the Flavian family, and was given Roman citizenship, and gained a priviledged position in Rome.
He did not believe in a messiah, and did not believe in Jesus Christ. I brought this up because such weight is given to his writings, exaggerations and all, and I see folks try to fit scripture to his writings, not see if his writings fit scripture. That is an important point to consider when reading the interpretations of others.
You didn't answer my question, though, regarding the quote. When, in the course of the Jewish war, did this quote take place? I had been referring to the 2 witnesses and that an earthquake occurs at their resurrection. If Josephus is writing about an earthquake and 8000 dying, when was that?
Are you trying to create a smokescreen here?
Pliny the elder, who died investigating the quake of Vesuvius in 79A.D. wrote 37 books (I may have said a different no. before) in his 'Natural History'. In 77 A.D., he wrote that the 'greatest' quake in human memory occurred when Tiberius was emperor, in A.D. 17, which destroyed a portion of western Turkey. Now, in scripture, when the 2 witnesses are resurrected in Jerusalem, there is an earthquake there, and 1/10 of the city falls and 7000 die. Pliny the elder did not write of an earthquake in Jerusalem around 70 A.D. We know of one in 48 A.D. and of course, of one written in scripture when our Lord was crucified.
Since you gave a quote of Josephus that makes it sound like an earthquake occurred in Jerusalem and 8000 died, and then write about earthquakes in Italy, I have to ask again - are you trying to create a smokescreen?
I guess this shows that we shouldn't try to make scripture fit scattered events in history, and instead, see if the historical account actually fits the scriptural account.
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Post by YIsrael on Jul 29, 2003 22:45:47 GMT -5
Nature of the resurrected body...
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Analogy of the Seed...
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Analogy of living and heavenly bodies...
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
Comparrison between the present body and resurrected body...
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Need for Resurrection...
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
"at the last trump" comes from breaking of camp during Roman times. First trump meant strike tents and prepare to leave, second meant to fall in line, and third and final trump meant march away...
Resurrection...the final defeat of death...
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pkmtyolp the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
So how should we live right now?...
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:35-58
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 30, 2003 6:42:43 GMT -5
Nature of the resurrected body... But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Analogy of the Seed... Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. Analogy of living and heavenly bodies... All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. Comparrison between the present body and resurrected body... So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Need for Resurrection... Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. "at the last trump" comes from breaking of camp during Roman times. First trump meant strike tents and prepare to leave, second meant to fall in line, and third and final trump meant march away... Resurrection...the final defeat of death... So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pkmtyolp the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. So how should we live right now?... Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 it is nice to see you YIsreal. What is your interpretation of this pkmtyolpage? I thought it was pretty obvious but was amazed to watch how preterists twist it. I do not know your doctrine but I would be interested to hear
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Post by semperfidelis on Aug 21, 2003 9:30:24 GMT -5
I think this is where we differ. I believe Christ's coming is a catalyst to each man being resurrected in his own order either to life eternal or to eternal aspodfija. I understand you believe that Christ resurrects, comes then all people everywhere are resurrected, some to eternal life and some to eternal (second) death. Right? How does this prophecy mesh with your viewpoints. Obviously this is speaking of a gathering unto Christ. It also mentions that before this happens the christians that have pkmtyolped away were in the ground asleep 1 thessalonians 4 13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.
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Post by guidemeLord on Aug 22, 2003 13:21:43 GMT -5
How does this prophecy mesh with your viewpoints. Obviously this is speaking of a gathering unto Christ. It also mentions that before this happens the christians that have pkmtyolped away were in the ground asleep 1 thessalonians 4 13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words. I guess I would have to see where it conflicts my view. Christians are born in the flesh, born again into the kingdom of heaven, Live out their days appointed for them on earth doing God's work, and in their last day are judged and resurrected (given glorified bodies) unto life eternal. And on and on and on ... world without end. Rejecters of Christ are born in the flesh, live out their appointed days, and in their last day are judged and resurrected unto second death for eternity. And on and on and on... world without end. How does that contradict or conflict with my views and/or biblical doctrine?
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Post by genesda on Jan 29, 2004 12:02:01 GMT -5
There is nothing to indicate Adam could not have died physically if he had never eaten from the tree of knowledge. Adam was required to access the tree of Life if he wanted to live physically forever. There is nothing to indicate Adam didn't have the choice to abstain from accessing the tree of life if he wanted while he was in the garden. God did not force Adam to access the tree of Life, infact God gave Adam the choice to access it OR NOT. Physical death was not a result of the fall, rather it became an insurmountable barrier between God and man after the fall. Jesus Christ has conqured that barrier and now physical death has been restored to it's original purpose; As Gods servant to bring man into a deeper level of Human existance, an existance that was ordained from the foundation of the world. I read this post and was amazed. I don't know where you're getting this from, but it isn't biblical at all.[/color]
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Post by genesda on Feb 19, 2004 8:50:05 GMT -5
In a previous post GuidemeLord said: Yeah, so we don't all sleep (die/sleep) now we resurrect. Our immortal bodies ascend to heaven they don't sleep in a holding position like before Christ. In an instant, right after you die. My response 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. This is after Christ's death and resurection and yet it still says they fell asleep in Christ. That is their bodies that fell asleep their spirits went to heaven where they will at the rapture receive again their bodies which will be transformed into heavenly noncorruptable bodies.[ It's nice to be able to build a doctrine on one verse. This is why there are so many different breliefs among those claiming to be Christians.
You obviously have taken this one verse out of context. Try reading more than one line.
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Post by genesda on Apr 7, 2004 10:20:11 GMT -5
In a previous post GuidemeLord said: Yeah, so we don't all sleep (die/sleep) now we resurrect. Our immortal bodies ascend to heaven they don't sleep in a holding position like before Christ. In an instant, right after you die. My response 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. This is after Christ's death and resurection and yet it still says they fell asleep in Christ. That is their bodies that fell asleep their spirits went to heaven where they will at the rapture receive again their bodies which will be transformed into heavenly noncorruptable bodies. The verses you quoted say nothing about spirits of the saved going to heaven while bodies go to the grave. [/color]
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