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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 26, 2003 17:58:51 GMT -5
I'm still waiting...... Why the discrepancy between what you believe and what scripture says in the above verses? And who or what were/are/willbe the two witnesses in your view? I thought I had answered it. That was my intention when discussing all these things about the resurrection. I don't get what you are saying. My view is because of those scriptures and how they didn't fit with the Pre-trib view. How many comings does it take for the Lord to come back? I found that no more ridiculous then a person dying to be raised incorruptible each in our own time, and that the coming of the Lord was signified by the coming of the Holy Spirt (John 14-16). And that the New Jerusalem was set up once the destruction of the Old Jerusalem was completed. I believe that in three days Jesus raised up the Temple! If that doesn't answer your question can you be more specific as to what part of my view conflicts with the pkmtyolpage you posted?
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Post by Shirley on Jul 26, 2003 19:48:45 GMT -5
I don't know about the first part of her question but the second part. The two witness, who prophecy for 1262 days. Rev 11:3-14. They prophecy, they have the power to withold the rain, if anyone tries to harm them, fire comes out of their mouths and kills them....after they are done prophecying they are killed and left in the street for 3 days and everyone sees their bodies, rejoices, has a big party, gives gifts...then they are resurrected and taken up to heaven. You know, the two witness....
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 26, 2003 20:35:26 GMT -5
guidemeLord says "Yeah, so we don't all sleep (die/sleep) now we resurrect."
Translation : christians do not die we resurrect.
Yet the below verse clearly states that christians do die/sleep in Christ but their bodies will ressurect later. (see previous posts for more context) ...they also which are fallen asleep in Christ....
"Resurrection by definition is a re-embodiment. Because you don't want to admit that we have bodies in eternity, you grossly distort the meaning of the word in order to get arround the clear teaching of Scripture. How or when the resurrection takes place is a separate issue from what the resurrection IS."
I can see it is going to be hard for me to leave this subject but I think it is fair that I clarify what I meant but I will leave the arguing to others.
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 26, 2003 20:36:44 GMT -5
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. o.k..... just one more clarification do you believe the unbelievers emediately go to the second death as well?
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 27, 2003 0:44:49 GMT -5
guidemeLord says "Yeah, so we don't all sleep (die/sleep) now we resurrect." Translation : christians do not die we resurrect. Yet the below verse clearly states that christians do die/sleep in Christ but their bodies will ressurect later. (see previous posts for more context) ...they also which are fallen asleep in Christ.... "Resurrection by definition is a re-embodiment. Because you don't want to admit that we have bodies in eternity, you grossly distort the meaning of the word in order to get arround the clear teaching of Scripture. How or when the resurrection takes place is a separate issue from what the resurrection IS." I can see it is going to be hard for me to leave this subject but I think it is fair that I clarify what I meant but I will leave the arguing to others. Christ came to repair the "death" of Adam and Eve. In Genesis 2:15-17 God told man concerning the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil "in the day you eat thereof you will surely die." Man and woman ate of the fruit. Did they die that day? Amazingly, most people will say "No!" because Adam and Eve did not die physically after they ate the forbidden fruit. But this is not the whole story.
Death means separation, not annihilation. And Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden the day they ate the fruit. Thus, Adam and Eve died spiritually because they were cast out of the presence of God. If Adam and Eve did not die the day they ate then Satan told the truth and God lied! God said you will die in the day you eat, Satan said you will not surely die, Genesis 3:1ff. Who told the truth to Adam and Eve? Unless one can find Adam and Eve physically dead in Genesis 2-3, then the death they died was spiritual and not physical.
If we regain in Christ, in resurrection, what was lost in Adam, 1 Cor. 15:22, and if spiritual life, not physical, is what was lost, then physical resurrection is not what the Bible means by resurrection from the dead. Instead, the focus of Bible teaching about resurrection is the spiritual restoration of man from sin-death.A Study of the Resurrection by Don K. PrestonIf you think that God lied then you must assume that Jesus did to for He said that death was conquered and those that believe in Him shall never die.. yet we still physically die... Is Christ/God a liar..Hardly
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 27, 2003 1:29:29 GMT -5
I don't know about the first part of her question but the second part. The two witness, who prophecy for 1262 days. Rev 11:3-14. They prophecy, they have the power to withold the rain, if anyone tries to harm them, fire comes out of their mouths and kills them....after they are done prophecying they are killed and left in the street for 3 days and everyone sees their bodies, rejoices, has a big party, gives gifts...then they are resurrected and taken up to heaven. You know, the two witness.... Here is my take on the two witnesses.. Before going further notice the following remarks of Dr. Alford on the subject: ‘The two witnesses, etc. No solution has ever been given of this portion of the prophecy. Either the two witnesses are literal,---two individual men,---or they are symbolical,---two individuals taken as the concentration of principles and characteristics, and this either in themselves, or as representing men who embodied those principles and characteristics. . . . The article toiz seems as if the two witnesses were well known, and distinct in their individuality. The dusin is essential to the prophecy, and is not to be explained away. No interpretation can be right which does not, either in individuals, or in characteristic lines of testimony, retain and bring out this dualism.’Therefore you are asking me for an explanation that as of yet no one has answered so I would like to note that this is just my opinion and I will try to show as much evidence as I can. As of yet, I have not been able to determine whether these are 2 figurative witnessess or two literal witnesses so I will give my 'guesses' in both cases. The Criteria for the witnesses: - They are witnesses of Christ
- They are two in number.
- They are endowed with miraculous powers.
- They are symbolically represented by the two olive trees and two candlesticks seen in the vision of Zechariah. (Zech. 4)
- They prophesy in sackcloth, i.e. their message is one of woe.
- They die a violent death in the city, and their dead bodies are treated with ignominy.
- After three days and a half they rise from the dead, and are taken up to heaven.
Literal witnesses:1. St. James We know as a matter of fact and of history that in the last days of Jerusalem there lived in that city a Christian teacher eminent for his sanctity, a faithful witness of Christ, endowed with the gifts of prophecy and miracles, who prophesied in sackcloth, and who sealed his testimony with his blood, being murdered in the streets of Jerusalem towards the closing days of the Jewish commonwealth. This was ‘James, a servant of God, and of the Lord Jesus Christ.’ There was a necessity for the ministry of James. If any could win over the ancient covenant people it was he. It pleased God to set so high an example of the Old Testament piety in its purest form among the Jews, to make conversion to the Gospel, even at the eleventh hour, as easy as possible for them. But when they would not listen to the voice of this last messenger of peace, then was the measure of the divine patience exhausted, and the fearful and long-threatened judgment broke forth. And thus was the mission of James fulfilled. He was not to outlive the destruction of the Holy City and the temple. According to Hegesippus, he was martyred in the year before that event, viz. A.D. 69.’ 2. The other I would guess is St. Peter who's home was in Jerusalem and who was martyred shortly before the destruction of Jerusalem.. There isn't any proof one way or the other for Peter and James being the two witnesses so I can only guess. Now if the witnesses are not literal (and there could be dual meaning here) then I propose that they are the heavens and the earth as rendered in Deut. 4:26 and Micah 6:2 both of which talk of God's dealings with Israel (the Jews). Hope that gives you some food for thought...
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Post by Heart4Him on Jul 27, 2003 2:14:22 GMT -5
I would add some things to your list regarding the 2 witnesses.
They could destroy those who would harm them with fire from their mouths. They could cause the rain not to fall for the 1260 days they prophesi, and could turn water into blood, and "smite the earth with every plague" (Rev. 11:6) When they are resurrected, an earthquake will shake the city of Jerusalem, and 7000 will die. They are taken up to heaven in a cloud.
Hasn't happened yet. James, Bishop of Jerusalem, who wrote the book of James, was martyred in 62 A.D. Paul and Peter were martyred in 68 A.D.
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 27, 2003 3:12:52 GMT -5
I would add some things to your list regarding the 2 witnesses. They could destroy those who would harm them with fire from their mouths. They could cause the rain not to fall for the 1260 days they prophesi, and could turn water into blood, and "smite the earth with every plague" (Rev. 11:6) When they are resurrected, an earthquake will shake the city of Jerusalem, and 7000 will die. They are taken up to heaven in a cloud. Hasn't happened yet. James, Bishop of Jerusalem, who wrote the book of James, was martyred in 62 A.D. Paul and Peter were martyred in 68 A.D. Oh I am quite sure it has happened already. The more and more I read the early Church historians and the recorded history of the Destruction of History, (of course the Bible is included with those both) I become aware at how similar the accounts are to those in the biblical prophecies.. for example... Rev.6:13.---‘ And in the same hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and there were slain in the earthquake seven thousand men, and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.’ ‘During the night a terrific storm arose; the wind blew with tempestuous violence, and the rain fell in torrents; the lightnings flashed without intermission, accompanied by fearful peals of thunder, and the quaking earth resounded with mighty bellowings. The universe, convulsed to its very base, appeared fraught with the destruction of mankind, and it was easy to conjecture that these were portents of no trivial calamity.’ Taking advantage of the panic caused by the earthquake, the Idumeans, who were in league with the Zealots, who occupied the temple, succeeded in effecting an entrance into the city, when a fearful pkmtyolmacre ensued. ‘ The outer court of the temple,’ says Josephus, ‘ was inundated with blood, and the day dawned upon eight thousand five hundred dead.’ I don't neccessarily show this example because I think it is dogmatic proof of fulfillment and it could be, but I wanted to show how interesting it is that most pastors will tell you that the way to interpret a biblical prophecy is to look at history. Even those faced with the prophetic events would only recognize it's fulfillment upon seeing it or experiencing it. So the only way to know for sure is for it to happen, yet there are so many events from the destruction of Jerusalem that sound as if they are fulfillment of the pkmtyolpages in the Bible concerning the Jesus' coming and more specifically the Day of the Lord.
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Post by Heart4Him on Jul 27, 2003 4:34:38 GMT -5
When is Josephus claiming this occurred?
One question is, was the writing of Josephus, a person who did not believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, inspired by God and totally accurate? Any personal bias and political motivation in his history? Answer is yes!
I had already given you an example of how Josephus exaggerated. He wrote with the desire to please Rome, who rewarded him. Looks to me like he was exaggerating again, taking literary license.
Now the second question is, was this in conjunction with the death and resurrection of the 2 witnesses ? Who could cause plagues and preached the gospel?
And the third is, were the 8,000 dead, if that number is accurate, from an earthquake or from fighting?
What I have seen when reading the interpretations by preterists is that they rely on Josephus very heavily and try to fit the scrip[ture to his writings. That is putting an interpretation into the scripture, not drawing the meaning from the scripture.
In addition, there was another Roman writer, Pliny, who wrote about the earthquakes and other events of nature. He did not include an earthquake in Jerusalem in the 60's A.D. in his 27 books. He included other quakes in Jerusalem, but none in the 60's.
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 27, 2003 5:08:40 GMT -5
Christ came to repair the "death" of Adam and Eve. In Genesis 2:15-17 God told man concerning the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil "in the day you eat thereof you will surely die." Man and woman ate of the fruit. Did they die that day? Amazingly, most people will say "No!" because Adam and Eve did not die physically after they ate the forbidden fruit. But this is not the whole story.
yThey began to die physically that day.
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 27, 2003 5:23:43 GMT -5
If you think that God lied then you must assume that Jesus did to for He said that death was conquered and those that believe in Him shall never die.. yet we still physically die... Is Christ/God a liar..Hardly I never call God a liar. just as spiritual death occured instantly and physical death was begun when Adam and Eve sinned so spiritual life begins instantly at salvation and physical resurrection occurs eventually. Just as in Adam all physically and spiritually die so in Christ all spirittually and physically live. In addition: By believing in Saten never being put in hell where he can not harm anyone anymore you are saying that God never has complete victory over Satan and Satan gets to torment God's creaton eternally. What a belief without hope! God does win. Satan does get totally defeated. Creation will one day no longer groan with the curse of sin. Some day we will plant and reap without sweating. The curse mentioned below will all be gone. In Christ is the Victory! 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
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Post by parousia70 on Jul 27, 2003 13:00:31 GMT -5
I ment no insult, just drawing the logical conclusion of your stated view. With all due respect, the Bible teaches none of this. I do not know where or how you draw this conclusion. Again, scripture does not teach that the Millennium is the "new heavens and earth". I do not know where or how you draw that conclusion for it certainly isn't biblical. (Jesus is ruling now BTW.) But you yourself quoted scriptures that teach that, in the New Heavens and Earth, sinners live on. I am confused by this apparant waffling.....What do you believe exactly?
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Post by parousia70 on Jul 27, 2003 13:05:21 GMT -5
On counsel from my older brother and father to drop the subject as you are unconvinceable and will not answer questions due to not having an answer, I am going to say one more thing than leave it alone. That sure is convienient for you. Well, he is wrong about me. I am no Christian Scientist. Please quote anything I have said that denies that we have Bodies in eternity. I have never denied nor ever will deny such. Jesus Christ IS the Resurrection. (John 11:25) Your brother does know that dosen't he?
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 27, 2003 14:23:32 GMT -5
When is Josephus claiming this occurred? One question is, was the writing of Josephus, a person who did not believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, inspired by God and totally accurate? Any personal bias and political motivation in his history? Answer is yes! I had already given you an example of how Josephus exaggerated. He wrote with the desire to please Rome, who rewarded him. Looks to me like he was exaggerating again, taking literary license. Now the second question is, was this in conjunction with the death and resurrection of the 2 witnesses ? Who could cause plagues and preached the gospel? And the third is, were the 8,000 dead, if that number is accurate, from an earthquake or from fighting? What I have seen when reading the interpretations by preterists is that they rely on Josephus very heavily and try to fit the scrip[ture to his writings. That is putting an interpretation into the scripture, not drawing the meaning from the scripture. In addition, there was another Roman writer, Pliny, who wrote about the earthquakes and other events of nature. He did not include an earthquake in Jerusalem in the 60's A.D. in his 27 books. He included other quakes in Jerusalem, but none in the 60's. First, Josephus did exaggerate and he was in the employ of Rome.. By the way.. Why would Rome want Jesus proven a prophet? and furthermore Josephus was a Jew that joined the Romans during the war. Second, I didn't write that quote in conjunction with the two witnesses, so it has no relevance there. Third, Pliny the younger wrote about Vesuvious' eruption in 79AD which had a hand in the death of Pliny the Elder, his uncle. The eruption supposedly started when the plates becan to shift around Rome in 63AD: "After the earthquake, Campania quivered with constant tremors. They were not violent, but still caused damage, because they "shook things already shaken". The emperor Nero, giving his debut performance on the lyre at a theatre in Naples in AD 64, was interrupted by a sudden earthquake. "The earthquakes probably didn't stop until after the eruption of 79AD. Mt. Vesuvious erupted and history tells us that those who slew the city of Jerusalem were overcome and that the smoke rose day and night... "Behind them another black cloud (second eruption hours after the first) was billowing across the earth and into the sky. Just as young Pliny and his mother struggled off the road, an awful darkness fell. It was "not the darkness of a moonless or cloudy night, but as if the lamp had been put out in a closed room."
Children cried, women screamed, and men shouted, trying to recognise loved ones by their voices. Some prayed to the gods, but others said there were no gods left, and eternal night had overwhelmed the world.
Now and again distant fires glowed. Ashes fell thickly, and Pliny and his mother had to shake themselves or else be buried. "I could boast that not a groan or cry of fear escaped me," young Pliny wrote later to his friend Cornelius Tacitus, "had I not derived some poor consolation in my mortal lot from the belief that the whole world was dying with me and I with it."
But the eruption was almost over. Young Pliny saw the darkness thin to a smoky gloom. Then the sun appeared, dim and yellow. The countryside around was buried deep in grey-white ash. Pliny and his mother returned home, though the earthquakes continued, and awaited news of the elder Pliny.
Mount Vesuvius was quiet. Centuries of accumulated energy had been expended in two terrible days. Over 2,000 feet of the vine-clad mountain was gone, pulverised and collapsed. Only a ridge was left. The ashes of the shattered cone had reached Libya, Syria and Egypt and had darkened the sky at Rome.
Terrified survivors spread rumours of what had been seen during the cataclysm. They said, "huge men quite surpkmtyolping any human stature" had appeared on the mountain, "wandering over the earth day and night and also flitting through the air…and, moreover, a sound of trumpets was heard."
Vesuvius was a ruin, but it refused to subside back into sleep. According to the Roman historian pkmtyolcius Dio, before the eruption, the mountain "was equally high at all points". Now it resembled an amphitheatre, and the collapsed centre sent up smoke by day and fire by night. "In fact, it gives the impression that quantities of incense of all kinds are being burned in it. This, now, goes on all the time…"Sounds to me like fulfillment to me.
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 27, 2003 14:42:53 GMT -5
I never call God a liar. just as spiritual death occured instantly and physical death was begun when Adam and Eve sinned so spiritual life begins instantly at salvation and physical resurrection occurs eventually. Just as in Adam all physically and spiritually die so in Christ all spirittually and physically live. In addition: By believing in Saten never being put in hell where he can not harm anyone anymore you are saying that God never has complete victory over Satan and Satan gets to torment God's creaton eternally. What a belief without hope! God does win. Satan does get totally defeated. Creation will one day no longer groan with the curse of sin. Some day we will plant and reap without sweating. The curse mentioned below will all be gone. In Christ is the Victory! 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. I know you didn't call God a liar that is why I said that. God didn't say that they would die eventually, He said they would die if they ate the fruit. Satan said they wouldn't. Satan must've been right because they didn't die. But Satan wasn't right. They did die spiritually, even before God confronted them with their sin. So, the repair between God and Man that Jesus came to do was a spiritual repair, not a physical one. Sure we will live in eternity with real heavenly bodies after our physical death. That curse of physical death is not mended, but spiritually we will never die. Jesus renewed our spirit unto Him and set us free from the power of the Devil. He has no hold on us. Whereas before the Devil was the accuser, now Jesus is the Mediator and Advocate and the devil has been cast out of heaven where no unclean thing shall enter. The gates of heaven are open night and day so that all who repent and believe on Him can enter. We can rest assured knowing that God is in total control!! The battle is already won. Now we should claim it. This isn't any different than I have ever been taught. Usually though there is a reference to the end of the world where we will live forever in a physical new kingdom but I say where is it told that there is a new spiritual kingdom and a new physical kingdom? The Lord God does not dwell in the buildings of men but in the hearts of men.
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