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Post by parousia70 on Jul 24, 2003 14:20:26 GMT -5
Jesus had a "glorified body"; I really think we will be like Him. He ate, he had scars, and the people clearly recognized Him. (Of course, He could pkmtyolp through closed doors too; but He had a trace of that before --- Jn8:59 says "He was hidden from them, and pkmtyolping through their midst went His way...") Jesus was not raised in a glorified body. It was the same body that was put on the cross. It had no supernatural powers it did not posess before the cross, save the fact it could no longer be put to death. Jesus did not receive his Glorified body until the ascention at the very earliest. Your mention of the scars is interesting. In your view, will we retain our death wounds in our resurrection bodies "like Christ" did? BTW, the resurrection of Jesus Christ on the 3rd day is "the first resurrection" Jesus Christ was the first to rise out of the dead. Jesus was, literally, the "first resurrection." This fact, well attested by the writings of the New Testament, forms the basis for understanding Revelation 20:5-6: "This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power" (Revelation 20:5-6) The first resurrection was Jesus Christ: Revelation 1:5 Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead Acts 26:23 Christ should suffer and...be the first that should rise from the dead Colossians 1:18 He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead 1 Corinthians 15:20 Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping he became Jesus Christ was, plainly, the first resurrection. This fact forms the basis of St. John's depiction of the tribulation martyr saints becoming full partakers of the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20--everything Christ received by his death and resurrection is granted to them. Revelation 20:4-6, therefore, depicts the reality of Pauline theology concerning the identity Christ's followers had "in Him." Paul had taught that the saints were to become partakers of Christ's own reign and victory over death. Paul, with his detailed theology of our baptism into the very death and resurrection of Jesus (Rom 6:3-14), taught that the saints had co-resurrection and co-enthronement in the realized resurrection and enthronement of Jesus Christ: The saints have co-resurrection in Jesus Christ:
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 24, 2003 15:13:42 GMT -5
yes I firmly believe in the future resurection of our bodies at the coming of Christ but whether that is pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib I am not so adamant. I came from a pre-trib view not so very long ago and now believe the middle of the trib is just before the seven bowls and that that is when the rapture happens.
I do however believe that the resurrection of our bodies is an important doctrine. It is however obvious that your spiritualized veiw of the resurrection stems from your spiritualization of all scripture. This I think is dangerous doctrine. It is important to believe that God can take a body long dead and restore it and remodel it into a heavenly body.
Spiritualizing all scripture tends to lead people to say things like God did not create the earth in 7 literal days and there was no literal flood and the miracles Christ did were spiritual not physical healing. I am NOT saying that is what you believe since I really do not know what you believe on this kind of thing but it is the logical way to think. If you are going to ramdomly say that this or that should be interpreted spiritually or figuratively with no context indicating that you should interpret it that way than why not interpret the whole of scripture that way?
I can almost see my mother-in-law nodding her head to your interpretation guidemelord only she would also say that Jesus is one way to God and the creation story is ijust that, a nice story and that there never was a great flood ect. Why does she believe this? She interprets scripture spiritually and figuritively. And no I do not believe she is a Christian although she certainly would claim to be. From your posts in other sections I do NOT believe you think this way guidemelord and in fact believe you are a very devout believer. I am just saying that this method of interpretation naturally leads to my mother-in-laws views and all sorts of other distortions since it is not interpreted literally than all kinds of meanings can be attatched to it.
Am I making any sence? I hope so.
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 24, 2003 15:50:43 GMT -5
[quote author=Ben johnson link=board=prophecy&thread=1059002541&start=13#0 date=1059070124 If so, who is left to have chi8ldren? Where does it speak of children in the Millenium?
.[/quote]
Isaiah 11 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the ***atrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
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Post by parousia70 on Jul 24, 2003 20:24:44 GMT -5
Isaiah 11 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the thingyatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. Where does the Bible teach you that this speaks of the Millennium?
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 24, 2003 20:43:58 GMT -5
Where does the Bible teach you that this speaks of the Millennium? It is also possible it is speaking of the new heaven and the new earth although I have always heard it as to refering to the Millenium there is this pkmtyolpage: Isaiah 65 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. 24 And it shall come to pkmtyolp, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. again there are children so where are they coming from?
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 24, 2003 20:48:51 GMT -5
In a previous post GuidemeLord said: Yeah, so we don't all sleep (die/sleep) now we resurrect. Our immortal bodies ascend to heaven they don't sleep in a holding position like before Christ. In an instant, right after you die. My response 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. This is after Christ's death and resurection and yet it still says they fell asleep in Christ. That is their bodies that fell asleep their spirits went to heaven where they will at the rapture receive again their bodies which will be transformed into heavenly noncorruptable bodies. guidemeLord you have yet to answer the above implied question. Why the discrepancy between what scripture says and your view?
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 24, 2003 20:49:23 GMT -5
yes I firmly believe in the future resurection of our bodies at the coming of Christ but whether that is pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib I am not so adamant. I came from a pre-trib view not so very long ago and now believe the middle of the trib is just before the seven bowls and that that is when the rapture happens. I do however believe that the resurrection of our bodies is an important doctrine. It is however obvious that your spiritualized veiw of the resurrection stems from your spiritualization of all scripture. This I think is dangerous doctrine. It is important to believe that God can take a body long dead and restore it and remodel it into a heavenly body. Spiritualizing all scripture tends to lead people to say things like God did not create the earth in 7 literal days and there was no literal flood and the miracles Christ did were spiritual not physical healing. I am NOT saying that is what you believe since I really do not know what you believe on this kind of thing but it is the logical way to think. If you are going to ramdomly say that this or that should be interpreted spiritually or figuratively with no context indicating that you should interpret it that way than why not interpret the whole of scripture that way? I can almost see my mother-in-law nodding her head to your interpretation guidemelord only she would also say that Jesus is one way to God and the creation story is ijust that, a nice story and that there never was a great flood ect. Why does she believe this? She interprets scripture spiritually and figuritively. And no I do not believe she is a Christian although she certainly would claim to be. From your posts in other sections I do NOT believe you think this way guidemelord and in fact believe you are a very devout believer. I am just saying that this method of interpretation naturally leads to my mother-in-laws views and all sorts of other distortions since it is not interpreted literally than all kinds of meanings can be attatched to it. Am I making any sence? I hope so. I understand what you are saying. I hope that you don't think I want to spiritualize the actual resurrection because I am not. What I said was: I think the Bible says this: We are born. We accept Christ and are born again. We die to this world and are resurrected as a new creature. Our treasures are stored up in heaven along with our "mansion" or heavenly body. We die, we receive a crown of glory, our stored up treasures, and our heavenly body... Each person individually at that time of their death. Now if that is spiritualizing then how do you figure? By the way: Thanks for the vote of confidence about my faith. I am just growing up in Christ myself and trying to get it right, you know?
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Post by parousia70 on Jul 25, 2003 8:37:47 GMT -5
It is also possible it is speaking of the new heaven and the new earth although I have always heard it as to refering to the Millenium Lets see......... the Bible teaches that these things (procreation, Birth , ageing, death, sinners) happen in the "new heavens and new earth" (Isaiah 65:17-21), but you "have always heard" this speaks not of the new heavens and earth but of the millennium. Which should we believe? What the Bible teaches, or what you have "always heard"? They are coming from Human Beings, on earth, living under the administration of the new covenant, the "new heavens and earth". This should come as no suprise, for the Bible teaches that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21). It seems to be your view that has the insurmountable task of interprating Isaiah 65:17-21 in harmony with a "futurist" belief of what the "New heavens and new earth" are, hense the need to assign these verses to the "millennium", in direct conflict with the Bible's explicit teaching.
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 25, 2003 9:55:43 GMT -5
WRONG! It does not hurt my futuerest views at all to consider that there are some people that continue to have children in the new heaven and the new earth. I just never have heard of it that way before.
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 25, 2003 10:11:56 GMT -5
In a previous post GuidemeLord said: Yeah, so we don't all sleep (die/sleep) now we resurrect. Our immortal bodies ascend to heaven they don't sleep in a holding position like before Christ. In an instant, right after you die. My response 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. This is after Christ's death and resurection and yet it still says they fell asleep in Christ. That is their bodies that fell asleep their spirits went to heaven where they will at the rapture receive again their bodies which will be transformed into heavenly noncorruptable bodies. I'm still waiting...... Why the discrepancy between what you believe and what scripture says in the above verses? And who or what were/are/willbe the two witnesses in your view?
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 25, 2003 11:30:18 GMT -5
This should come as no suprise, for the Bible teaches that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21). If I destroy my car and they melt it down to make a new car the old car is destroyed but still "exists". Is that the way God will make the new heaven and earth and have the old pkmtyolp away? I do not know but I do know that he said he would make a new one and that gives me much hope.
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Post by Ben johnson on Jul 25, 2003 14:03:47 GMT -5
This is about "walking after God" (IE being saved), rather than "being resurrected". That Ezk 36 pkmtyolpage simply repeats Ezk11:19-20; and verses 18 & 21 clearly show man's volition in pursuing God, or pursuing corruptness.
Now, Jesus has given us a NEW COVENANT (Lk1:20); commenced at the moment of His death, that enters within the veil for us (Mk15:38, Heb6:19-20). And that's the meaning of Heb10:19, Jesus has become the mediator, the bridge to behind the veil...
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Post by parousia70 on Jul 25, 2003 14:18:59 GMT -5
WRONG! It does not hurt my futuerest views at all to consider that there are some people that continue to have children in the new heaven and the new earth. I just never have heard of it that way before. Dosen't your view require that no one will be married in the New H&E? Therefore you believe that God will allow, indeed champion, sex outside of wedlock, for procreation in your view of the New Heavens and Earth? How does that work exactly?
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 25, 2003 14:52:39 GMT -5
Dosen't your view require that no one will be married in the New H&E? Therefore you believe that God will allow, indeed champion, sex outside of wedlock, for procreation in your view of the New Heavens and Earth? How does that work exactly? That is insulting! I specifically said that those who came out of the tribulation were not given glorified bodies but just bodies that did not die or perhaps they are given glorified bodies when they are one hundred years old so that their children still have natural bodies and can get married and have children. until they are one hundred. I do not know. I admit that in the millenium there will be a new order of things with Jesus ruling and that that is perhaps the new heaven and earth of the millenium and that since some still in this perfect world choose to follow Satan when he is released after a thousand years is why a brand new heaven and earth are made where no one can sin.
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 26, 2003 9:22:04 GMT -5
On counsel from my older brother and father to drop the subject as you are unconvinceable and will not answer questions due to not having an answer, I am going to say one more thing than leave it alone. What I am going to say is a quote from my brother (who by the way read your messages and thinks you are a christian scientist). He recumended I say this one last thing. "Resurrection by definition is a re-embodiment. Because you don't want to admit that we have bodies in eternity, you grossly distort the meaning of the word in order to get arround the clear teaching of Scripture. How or when the resurrection takes place is a separate issue from what the resurrection IS."
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