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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 23, 2003 18:22:21 GMT -5
in continuation of topic in previous thread
I Cor. 15:12 resurrection. What is resurrection if there is no body because spirits cannot die?
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 23, 2003 18:52:08 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pkmtyolp the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 23, 2003 19:00:18 GMT -5
In a previous post GuidemeLord said:
Yeah, so we don't all sleep (die/sleep) now we resurrect. Our immortal bodies ascend to heaven they don't sleep in a holding position like before Christ. In an instant, right after you die.
My response
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
This is after Christ's death and resurection and yet it still says they fell asleep in Christ. That is their bodies that fell asleep their spirits went to heaven where they will at the rapture receive again their bodies which will be transformed into heavenly noncorruptable bodies.
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 23, 2003 19:02:03 GMT -5
In a previous post GuidemeLord said: Yeah, so we don't all sleep (die/sleep) now we resurrect. Our immortal bodies ascend to heaven they don't sleep in a holding position like before Christ. In an instant, right after you die. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. This is after Christ's death and resurection and yet it still says they fell asleep in Christ. That is their bodies that fell asleep their spirits went to heaven where they will at the rapture receive again their bodies which will be transformed into heavenly noncorruptable bodies. Hey! I didn't write that whole thing!!! Can you make it a little clearer so we don't start of confusing your point of view and mine... LOL |
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 23, 2003 19:06:41 GMT -5
1 Cor 15:22,23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. I think this is where we differ. I believe Christ's coming is a catalyst to each man being resurrected in his own order either to life eternal or to eternal aspodfija. I understand you believe that Christ resurrects, comes then all people everywhere are resurrected, some to eternal life and some to eternal (second) death. Right? |
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 23, 2003 19:10:20 GMT -5
KJV
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
New Li ving Translation
52 It will happen in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, the Christians who have died[9] will be raised with transformed bodies. And then we who are living will be transformed so that we will never die. 53For our perishable earthly bodies must be transformed into heavenly bodies that will never die.
and so at the last trump our bodies will change they will be transformed into heavenly bodies.
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 23, 2003 19:33:41 GMT -5
Hey! I didn't write that whole thing!!! Can you make it a little clearer so we don't start of confusing your point of view and mine... LOL sorry about that: Changed it |
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 23, 2003 19:39:13 GMT -5
I think this is where we differ. I believe Christ's coming is a catalyst to each man being resurrected in his own order either to life eternal or to eternal aspodfija. I understand you believe that Christ resurrects, comes then all people everywhere are resurrected, some to eternal life and some to eternal (second) death. Right? No I believe a rapture of New Testament saints (That is us) and perhaps Old Testament Saints. and then a later rapture post trib of Tribulation Saints and the unsaved. |
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Post by Jan on Jul 23, 2003 19:39:37 GMT -5
in continuation of topic in previous thread I Cor. 15:12 resurrection. What is resurrection if there is no body because spirits cannot die? The resurrection is of the body and not the spirit  <>< |
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 23, 2003 19:41:05 GMT -5
The resurrection is of the body and not the spirit <>< yes I agree but that is not what guidemelord is saying |
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Post by Jan on Jul 23, 2003 19:48:21 GMT -5
I thought that was what you were trying to say, Joyful  **Whew** <>< |
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Post by Ben johnson on Jul 24, 2003 3:15:17 GMT -5
Jesus had a "glorified body"; I really think we will be like Him. He ate, he had scars, and the people clearly recognized Him. (Of course, He could pkmtyolp through closed doors too; but He had a trace of that before --- Jn8:59 says "He was hidden from them, and pkmtyolping through their midst went His way...")
I'm curious, JoyufulHeart --- if you believe that the GREAT RESURRECTION occurs "pre-Trib", and then "later post trib rapture of Tribulation Saints", why do you think John calls that POST-TRIB-RAPTURE (of MARTYRED SAINTS), the First Resurrection? Do you find any grounds for understanding the First Resurrection ("protos anastasis") to happen in two STAGES? One stage seven years apart from the other? And if so, then how is it 1Thess4:15 says: "We who are ALIVE shall not PRECEDE the dead --- the dead are raised FIRST"? If the Rapture is PRE, then how can we precede the resurrection of the Trib Martyrs? Sorry, JH, I don't mean to be argumentative, I really am interested in your opinion...
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 24, 2003 5:52:22 GMT -5
Jesus had a "glorified body"; I really think we will be like Him. He ate, he had scars, and the people clearly recognized Him. (Of course, He could pkmtyolp through closed doors too; but He had a trace of that before --- Jn8:59 says "He was hidden from them, and pkmtyolping through their midst went His way...") I'm curious, JoyufulHeart --- if you believe that the GREAT RESURRECTION occurs "pre-Trib", and then "later post trib rapture of Tribulation Saints", why do you think John calls that POST-TRIB-RAPTURE (of MARTYRED SAINTS), the First Resurrection? Do you find any grounds for understanding the First Resurrection ("protos anastasis") to happen in two STAGES? One stage seven years apart from the other? And if so, then how is it 1Thess4:15 says: "We who are ALIVE shall not PRECEDE the dead --- the dead are raised FIRST"? If the Rapture is PRE, then how can we precede the resurrection of the Trib Martyrs? Sorry, JH, I don't mean to be argumentative, I really am interested in your opinion... actually I am mid-trib/pre-wrath. One of my reasons for this view of a 2 stage resurection is that there must be some non-transformed people in the millenium as there are children born during the millenium and there is no marriage or giving in marriage of people that have their heavenly bodies. So I think those tribulation saints that are alive at the second coming will not get heavenly bodies (although I also think they will not die). But scripture definately states that when we are caught up (raptured)we will be transformed into our heavenly bodies. Otherwise I might could agree with you on this. I am not dogmatic on this issue. However I do think it is an important issue to understand that our physical bodies are raised and transformed into heavenly bodies rather than thinking it is just our spirits that resurect. (since spirits don't die they can not resurrect) |
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Post by Ben johnson on Jul 24, 2003 13:08:44 GMT -5
The "pre-wrath" is my understanding too. I cannot find a single verse that even hints at a "pre-trib-rapture". Favorite ones used by pre-tribbers are Rev3:10 (but Jn15:17 affirms that "tereo ek" means GUARD-AMIDST, while "airo ek" means REMOVE FROM THE EARTH); and 1Thess 5:9 (which is SALVIC rather than RAPTURAL --- Jesus did not die on the Cross to save us from the Tribulation --- in Rom2:5-8 "orge-wrath" is HELL --- so too in "orge-wrath" HELL in 1Thess5:9, & 1Thess1:10).
In 1Cor15:52 it undeniably speaks of the RAPTURE, and says "last trumpet"; I see no grounds for assuming this is some "last trumpet" from an "unkown feast of trumpets" --- there is no reason to think it's not the SEVENTH TRUMPET of the TRIBULATION. Thus we fellowship with Jesus in the clouds for the duration of the SEVEN SEALS (be it weeks or even hours). That 1Cor15:50ff says "we will put on the immortal"; so you would appear to be right about us "not being given in marriage". I do not fully understand all of the eschatology of Scripture. Do some survive the seals? Evidently. What of Matt24:37-41 nand Luke 17:4-37? It places that "taking" to be AT Jesus' second coming, but the TAKEN ones are the EVIL people (their bodies are thrown to the vultures). Are the REMAINING then raptured? If so, who is left to have chi8ldren? Where does it speak of children in the Millenium?
Yes our physical bodies are raised; John describes in Rev6:9-11, the SOULS were complaining about justice, and they COME TO LIFE in 20:4. Definitely physical resurrection...
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 24, 2003 13:33:19 GMT -5
actually I am mid-trib/pre-wrath. One of my reasons for this view of a 2 stage resurection is that there must be some non-transformed people in the millenium as there are children born during the millenium and there is no marriage or giving in marriage of people that have their heavenly bodies. So I think those tribulation saints that are alive at the second coming will not get heavenly bodies (although I also think they will not die). But scripture definately states that when we are caught up (raptured)we will be transformed into our heavenly bodies. Otherwise I might could agree with you on this. I am not dogmatic on this issue. However I do think it is an important issue to understand that our physical bodies are raised and transformed into heavenly bodies rather than thinking it is just our spirits that resurect. (since spirits don't die they can not resurrect) This is exactly where I disagree. You are dogmatic in that there is a resurrection at the end with regards to physical bodies as the pkmtyolpages in 1 Thess and 1 Cor. portray but then you go ahead and split those two pkmtyolpages into three resurrections. It clearly states only one resurrection from earthly bodies to heavenly bodies. Since Jesus was able to eat, be seen, touched.. and He indeed had a heavenly body, isn't it reasonable to assume that either one must die or all that is needed to resurrect the corruptible into incorruptible is a change of heart and spirit? Ezekiel 37 talks of a resurrection of sorts. Ezekiel 36:24-26 For I will take you (Jews) from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.Put that pkmtyolpage together with Christ's claim of being our source of living water (John 4) and Christ's life restoring power in contrast with the pool at Bethsada (John 5) and this pkmtyolpage: Heb 10:19-22 talking to Jewish Christians says: Having therefor, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; and having a high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.To me this is further proof that a new resurrected body happens for each at the time they are saved by way of renewing the heart and puting God's Holy Spirit within us. Then do we have heavenly bodies ie bodies that are prepared or preparing to enter into heaven? Then at our death wouldn't there be an instant change from corruptible to incorruptible? And also this pkmtyolpage in Ezekiel being fulfilled in Hebrews means that Israel HAS returned to her own land and claimed her inheritance along with the grafted in Gentiles. CHRIST IS OUR ONLY SALVATION!! OUR CLEANSING WATER! I thank God every day for that! |
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**Whew**