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Post by LauraJean on Nov 16, 2004 16:51:33 GMT -5
Scott, I asked this earlier but you may have missed it....
If Paradise and Heaven are not the same things, then what is Heaven for?
Thanks! LJ
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Post by TarueBeliever on Nov 16, 2004 19:06:16 GMT -5
Scott, I asked this earlier but you may have missed it.... If Paradise and Heaven are not the same things, then what is Heaven for? Thanks! LJ I have some things in mind to say, but it may take some time to get it down right.
Scott
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Post by LauraJean on Nov 17, 2004 14:50:23 GMT -5
Okay! I can be patient!
Blessings, LJ
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Post by TarueBeliever on Nov 18, 2004 7:03:08 GMT -5
Heaven is the throne of God. Isaiah 66:1, Acts 7:49
But God is not stuck in Heaven. The Holy Spirit dwells in all Christians here on earth. God is present everywhere throughout his creation. He is not his creation, but is everywhere in it.
Angels are in Heaven. Matthew 18:10, Matthew 22:30, Mark 13:32
A Christian's treasure (or reward) is now in Heaven. Matthew 5:12, 6:1, 6:20, 19:21, Mark 10:21, Luke 6:23, 12:33, 18:22
Christians don't go to Heaven to get their reward. Their reward comes down from Heaven. Revelation 21:2
A Christian's name is recorded in Heaven. Luke 10:20, Hebrews 12:23
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Post by AlphaOmega on Nov 21, 2004 8:47:51 GMT -5
I2AM4AndyChristianOmega7-11 - "I'm not saying that Traffic has ever spoken against God."But you have made such claims several times, and they have been false every time. "The issue is this: Does He take what God says seriously?"And the answer is yes. "He doesn't seem to."No, I don't take you seriously. If you haven't noticed, you are not God, there is a difference between not taking you seriously and not taking Him seriously. "Yes, the ability to seek knowledge is a gift from God."Then why do you reject it when that ability leads us to conclusions that contradict what you would hope to be true. "But false knowledge doesn't add to the knowledge we already possess"That's nice. All you have to do now is show that any of my scientific claims actually are false; merely claiming that they are false doesn't cut it. --El Traf Bad like Jim Jones, I'll take you out with one punch Traffic, You have said that the historical events mentioned in Genesis 1-11 are "figuratively true". How can "figurative truths" be as real as "literal truths"? There's no physical evidence for their existence so they can't be real. And nowhere in the Bible is it written that Gen. 1-11 is only "figuratively true", and nowhere is it written that it consists of parables, except that you like to believe they are. Calling them "figurative truths" is better than calling God a liar. Am I right? I believe something is either true or false. Christian.
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Nov 21, 2004 12:09:24 GMT -5
Traffic, You have said that the historical events mentioned in Genesis 1-11 are "figuratively true". How can "figurative truths" be as real as "literal truths"? There's no physical evidence for their existence so they can't be real. And nowhere in the Bible is it written that Gen. 1-11 is only "figuratively true", and nowhere is it written that it consists of parables, except that you like to believe they are. Calling them "figurative truths" is better than calling God a liar. Am I right? I believe something is either true or false. Christian. Examples of "figurative truths" spoken by Jesus or about Jesus: 1. I am the vine and you are the branches 2. Behold the lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. 3. I am the door, whoever enters through me will be saved. etc, etc. All of these "figurative truths" because they are not literally true. Jesus is not literally a vine, and we are not literally branches, but through the figurative truth behind this is that Christ is our foundation, and without Him we cannot live. Jesus is not literally a lamb, but figuratively he was the sacrifice that took our sins upon Himself for our salvation. Jesus is not literally a door, but figuratively, it is only by faith in Him that we can be saved. See? Figurative truth is not literal truth, but it is still truth. In the same way, the story of God creating the universe can be figurative truth, that being that the universe was not created literally as it is written, but the figurative truth behind it is that God did indeed create the universe. That is the message the Traffic Demon is trying to demonstrate.
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Post by Traffic Demon on Nov 21, 2004 13:01:05 GMT -5
I2AM4AndyChristianRockOmega7-11 - "You have said that the historical events mentioned in Genesis 1-11 are 'figuratively true'."
Actually, I've done more than that, through the physical evidence, I've shown that they must be interpreted figuratively if they are to remain true at all.
"How can 'figurative truths' be as real as 'literal truths'?"
Because as PhilipDC78 just showed, truth is truth, regardless of how it is conveyed.
"There's no physical evidence for their existence so they can't be real."
I just broke another irony meter with this one. Anybody else having trouble with theirs?
"And nowhere in the Bible is it written that Gen. 1-11 is only 'figuratively true', and nowhere is it written that it consists of parables, except that you like to believe they are."
It is also written nowhere in The Odyssey that the events of that book are not historical, but just as with the fantastic events of Gen. 1-11, we have far more information than the book itself. That's the problem with ignoring other sources of information, it leads to bad conclusions. Despite the fact that the Bible never specifically indicates that the fantastic events of Gen. 1-11 are meant to be interpreted figuratively (hey, you mean just as there isn't any indication that they are meant to be interpreted literally either?), when one examines all the evidence on the topic, it becomes clear that they must be if they are to reman true at all.
"Calling them 'figurative truths' is better than calling God a liar. Am I right?"
Absolutely, since the former allows the truth of God's Word to mesh seamlessly with the truth of His Creation, and since I have no desire to do the latter.
"I believe something is either true or false."
It must be a very small and boring world that you live in, where everything must be spelled out in black and white, rather than allowing for more creative means of conveying a message.
--Traffic X Selling the Drama
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Post by stevec on Nov 21, 2004 13:31:54 GMT -5
I just broke another irony meter with this one. Anybody else having trouble with theirs? I turn mine off when I click on these threads. It was getting too expensive.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Nov 22, 2004 8:55:05 GMT -5
Examples of "figurative truths" spoken by Jesus or about Jesus: 1. I am the vine and you are the branches 2. Behold the lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. 3. I am the door, whoever enters through me will be saved. etc, etc. All of these "figurative truths" because they are not literally true. Jesus is not literally a vine, and we are not literally branches, but through the figurative truth behind this is that Christ is our foundation, and without Him we cannot live. Jesus is not literally a lamb, but figuratively he was the sacrifice that took our sins upon Himself for our salvation. Jesus is not literally a door, but figuratively, it is only by faith in Him that we can be saved. See? Figurative truth is not literal truth, but it is still truth. In the same way, the story of God creating the universe can be figurative truth, that being that the universe was not created literally as it is written, but the figurative truth behind it is that God did indeed create the universe. That is the message the Traffic Demon is trying to demonstrate. Philip, I think "the penny has finally dropped". Thanks. Just one problem: Gen. 1-11 has never been described as being "figuratively true", or "consisting of parables" by anyone who is qualified to do so, including God who was there in the very Beginning. In Revelation He calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega" - the Beginning and the End. THE END. Shalom, Christian.
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Nov 22, 2004 9:29:09 GMT -5
Philip, I think "the penny has finally dropped". Thanks. Just one problem: Gen. 1-11 has never been described as being "figuratively true", or "consisting of parables" by anyone who is qualified to do so, including God who was there in the very Beginning. In Revelation He calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega" - the Beginning and the End. THE END. Shalom, ANDY. What do you mean by "the penny has finally dropped"? I am not familiar with this colloquialism. As far as who describes Genesis 1-11 as being qualified to describe it as figurative or literal, who would you say is qualified to make that sort of statement? The way you wrote the sentence, it sounds like you are saying that even God is not qualified to make that statement, which I know you did not intend to say. You need to be more clear about that.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Nov 23, 2004 6:44:40 GMT -5
What do you mean by "the penny has finally dropped"? I am not familiar with this colloquialism. It is an English saying for when a person finally understands something. But I already understood what you were saying anyway.As far as who describes Genesis 1-11 as being qualified to describe it as figurative or literal, who would you say is qualified to make that sort of statement? The way you wrote the sentence, it sounds like you are saying that even God is not qualified to make that statement, which I know you did not intend to say. You need to be more clear about that. The people best qualified, apart from God, are those who are willing to be taught by Him through His written Word. They are best placed to interpret correctly the physical evidence of His Creation. You start with the Bible, and then you study the evidence according to what is written, which provides the framework on which to build.
Christian.
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Nov 23, 2004 8:54:22 GMT -5
The people best qualified, apart from God, are those who are willing to be taught by Him through His written Word. They are best placed to interpret correctly the physical evidence of His Creation. You start with the Bible, and then you study the evidence according to what is written, which provides the framework on which to build. ANDY. So lets take a person we know as an example. Lets say this person, we'll call him TD, is willing to learn from God, through His written word. He reads the Bible, reads Genesis, and goes to study God's creation in order to see the truth there. He then sees that the evidence that is in God's creation is not lining up to his literal interpretion of Genesis 1-11. He knows that God would not lie, so he studies more. He studies the background of the book of Genesis. He learns who wrote it, when it was written, and under what circumstances. He then comes to the realization that God created the universe not literally in the way that it was presented in Genesis, but that he still created the universe. He sees that the Genesis account was given to people with little scientific understanding in order that the would see the work that God did, and be amazed by it, but that the text was never meant to be a scientific explanation of how the universe was created. As you can see, the Bible was always central, always the framework of his beliefs.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Nov 23, 2004 10:53:32 GMT -5
So lets take a person we know as an example. Lets say this person, we'll call him TD, is willing to learn from God, through His written word. He reads the Bible, reads Genesis, and goes to study God's creation in order to see the truth there. He then sees that the evidence that is in God's creation is not lining up to his literal interpretion of Genesis 1-11. He knows that God would not lie, so he studies more. He studies the background of the book of Genesis. He learns who wrote it, when it was written, and under what circumstances. He then comes to the realization that God created the universe not literally in the way that it was presented in Genesis, but that he still created the universe. He sees that the Genesis account was given to people with little scientific understanding in order that the would see the work that God did, and be amazed by it, but that the text was never meant to be a scientific explanation of how the universe was created. As you can see, the Bible was always central, always the framework of his beliefs. And, of course, he has gone on to deny the fact that God created Adam and Eve "in His image", both physically and spiritually. He has gone on to deny how God created them. He has gone on to deny how they rebelled against God. He has gone on to deny that there was a global flood in Noah's time. He has gone on to deny what happened during the building of the Tower at Babel, and how it became the birthplace of the international languages. He has gone on to deny the 200+ year lifespans of some of our earliest ancestors who are mentioned in Genesis. The Book of Genesis not only mentions their names, it mentions how old they were when they died, and God's dealings with them. Are these facts or "figurative truths" [lies in these instances] I have no doubt that all these historical accounts in Genesis are true. Where do you stand on this?
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Post by AlphaOmega on Nov 23, 2004 11:05:31 GMT -5
Philip,
Do you believe that the Holy Scriptures are Divinely inspired and Spirit breathed? Yes or no?
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Nov 23, 2004 11:46:25 GMT -5
Philip, Do you believe that the Holy Scriptures are Divinely inspired and Spirit breathed? Yes or no? As a matter of fact, I believe this whole heartedly. I also believe that it is complete and infallible.
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