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Post by Traffic Demon on Oct 20, 2004 17:04:53 GMT -5
marysia - "why does it matter when the grand canyon 'became'? why does it really matter in regards to creation and the arguments for or against this theory or that?"It matters because there are some who attempt to claim it as evidence of a recent global flood in spite of the evidence (see delusion). Demonstrating the true age of the canyon and the length of time it took to form helps show those claims to be the garbage they are. "Isn't that what faith is all about -- belief period."But not belief contrary to reality if that belief were to be regarded as true. --Traffic X Selling the Drama
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Post by marysia on Oct 21, 2004 6:28:13 GMT -5
marysia - "why does it matter when the grand canyon 'became'? why does it really matter in regards to creation and the arguments for or against this theory or that?"It matters because there are some who attempt to claim it as evidence of a recent global flood in spite of the evidence (see delusion). Demonstrating the true age of the canyon and the length of time it took to form helps show those claims to be the garbage they are. "Isn't that what faith is all about -- belief period."But not belief contrary to reality if that belief were to be regarded as true. --Traffic X Selling the Drama thanks TD! i'm thankful to stay naively engrossed in the point blank beauty of the canyon and the gift it is from God - no matter when or how - I'm just glad it's there. in regards to belief contrary to reality i'm a little perplexed... I can't help but think of all the miracles listed in the bible - they are contrary to reality. sorry to not "get it" it's just there are somethings i "feel" in my heart - even though I know there is scientific "fact" as to how and why. with it now being fall - my heart is full. i see the color change not as a process of science but a gift of God - the glorious change in the scenery by nothing more than a shift in temps to start the change in each living tree. that scene is my gift from God that -- you did well, relax a moment and remember I am here - everywhere. sure it can be explained away by some process - but where did that whole process come from... I think it was God's own chemistry set thanks for your kind reply to my earlier "lame" post. i always enjoy your words!
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Post by Traffic Demon on Oct 21, 2004 15:50:31 GMT -5
marysia - "in regards to belief contrary to reality i'm a little perplexed... I can't help but think of all the miracles listed in the bible - they are contrary to reality."
Actually most of them are not if one accepts the possibility of supernatural intervention, since there exists no evidence that would contradict them. It is only a very few, such as the possibility of a global flood that are contrary to reality, since the evidence clearly indicates that such an event never occurred.
"thanks for your kind reply to my earlier 'lame' post"
No problem, always happy to answer questions where science is concerned, glad you're enjoying my posts.
--TDv2.0 1:4:9
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Post by keikikoka on Oct 26, 2004 17:07:04 GMT -5
It's Moderatin' Time!
Basically, I removed all the posts 93+ because this is not the appropriate forum to discuss issues with the moderators. If you have a problem with an action taken by a moderator, contact him/her or snottitude. Don't hijack a thread to express your personal feelings about members of the board.
I'll unlock the thread now. Keep it civil.
2 Tim 2:24 23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. 24 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
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Post by mook2357 on Oct 27, 2004 2:48:03 GMT -5
It's Moderatin' Time! Basically, I removed all the posts 93+ because this is not the appropriate forum to discuss issues with the moderators. If you have a problem with an action taken by a moderator, contact him/her or snottitude. Don't hijack a thread to express your personal feelings about members of the board. I'll unlock the thread now. Keep it civil. 2 Tim 2:24 23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. 24 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. Thank you K, I was just coming to clean it up myself. Contrary to popular belief, there are other mods around...Ronda just happens to be the only one around full time. If you guys have a problem in general with the way something is being done, either pm the mods, or if you would like, I check my email regularly (far more regularly than I am able to check in here on the boards) so you could feel free to email me and I will TRY to come check it out (I work full time, go to school full time...so time is limited...) mook2357@hotmail.com And does ANYONE use the "report" feature? Just curious...if not, give it a try next time you see something that you feel is offensive and need of moderator attention. THANKS!
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Post by TarueBeliever on Oct 27, 2004 7:59:23 GMT -5
Back to the real subject ... What does the Bible have to say about what happens to the souls of Christians after they die?
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Post by LauraJean on Oct 27, 2004 11:56:52 GMT -5
It's Moderatin' Time! Basically, I removed all the posts 93+ because this is not the appropriate forum to discuss issues with the moderators. If you have a problem with an action taken by a moderator, contact him/her or snottitude. As I recall, that route was tried to no avail. I've just about had it with the nanny culture around here. Sigh, LJ
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Post by LauraJean on Oct 27, 2004 11:59:30 GMT -5
Back to the real subject ... An excellent idea! What do we have besides Jesus's words to a dying man: LK 23:43b "Today you will be with me in paradise." ? Blessings, LJ
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Post by TarueBeliever on Oct 27, 2004 15:46:12 GMT -5
What do we have besides Jesus's words to a dying man: LK 23:43b "Today you will be with me in paradise." ? Blessings, LJ I'm not quite sure what you mean. While not answering your question just yet, allow me to comment on Luke 23:43.
When Jesus talked about Heaven, the authors of the Gospels used the Greek word "ourano'i" to denote what he said.
However, on the cross, Jesus didn't say to the thief, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Heaven." We know from John 20:17 that day, Jesus didn't go to Heaven. Jesus did say to the thief, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
The pkmtyolpage, in the original Greek is ...kai' ei'pen autô'i , Amê'n soi le'gô , sê'meron met' emou' e'sêi en tô'i paradei'sôi.Translating each word from Greek into English ...kai' (conj) andei'pen (v 3rd sg aor act ind) he saidautô'i (pn per/pos dat 3rd sg mas) to him, (punc) ,Amê'n (adv) trulysoi (pn per/pos dat 2nd sg) to youle'gô (v 1st sg pre act ind) I say, (punc) ,sê'meron (adv) todaymet' (prep) withemou' (pn per/pos gen 1st sg ) me {emphatically}e'sêi (v 2nd sg fut mid ind) you yourself will been (prep) intô'i (pn art dat sg mas) theparadei'sôi (n dat sg mas) garden or park. (punc) .Putting the translation together ...And he said to him, "Truly to you I say, today with me you yourself will be in the garden {or park}."Paradise" is not "Heaven." It's the Greek word for a walled-in garden, orchard, or park. The word is used only three times in the Bible: Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 12:4 and Revelation 2:7. Revelation 2:7 refers to the "Tree of Life" being in Paradise. This same "Tree of Life" is refered to in Revelation 22 as being in the New Jerusalem, a city which has come down from Heaven to the new earth. This is where all the resurrected Christians go to spend eternity with Jesus. They spend eternity with Jesus in Paradise in New Jerusalem in resurrected bodies, living eternally. They do not go to Heaven as disembodied souls or spirits. There's not one verse in the Bible that alludes to this.
Scott
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Post by Traffic Demon on Oct 27, 2004 18:19:58 GMT -5
LauraJean - "As I recall, that route was tried to no avail."
Why yes, yes it was.
--TDv2.0 1:4:9
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Post by LauraJean on Oct 28, 2004 2:08:19 GMT -5
"Paradise" is not "Heaven." It's the Greek word for a walled-in garden, orchard, or park. The word is used only three times in the Bible: Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 12:4 and Revelation 2:7. Revelation 2:7 refers to the "Tree of Life" being in Paradise. This same "Tree of Life" is refered to in Revelation 22 as being in the New Jerusalem, a city which has come down from Heaven to the new earth. This is where all the resurrected Christians go to spend eternity with Jesus. They spend eternity with Jesus in Paradise in New Jerusalem in resurrected bodies, living eternally. They do not go to Heaven as disembodied souls or spirits. There's not one verse in the Bible that alludes to this.
Hi, Scott! Maybe this is the rub you're looking for on this topic. I don't see the two terms, "paradise" and "heaven" as mutually exclusive but as one being descriptive of the other, thanks to your clarification from the Greek. I agree that there is no Biblical support for disembodied souls, but I also see nothing to lead me to conclude that the thief's resurrected, perfected body wasn't "fast forwarded" (remember, no linear time) to Paradise, which describes Heaven. Your thoughts? Blessings, LJ P.S. **just to clarify; you aren't saying Heaven and Paradise are two different places, are you?**
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Post by TarueBeliever on Oct 28, 2004 13:00:38 GMT -5
Hi, Scott! Maybe this is the rub you're looking for on this topic. I don't see the two terms, "paradise" and "heaven" as mutually exclusive but as one being descriptive of the other, thanks to your clarification from the Greek. I agree that there is no Biblical support for disembodied souls, but I also see nothing to lead me to conclude that the thief's resurrected, perfected body wasn't "fast forwarded" (remember, no linear time) to Paradise, which describes Heaven. Your thoughts? Blessings, LJ P.S. **just to clarify; you aren't saying Heaven and Paradise are two different places, are you?** That is exactly what I am saying. Heaven and Paradise ARE two different places. I’ll explain why. First, the Tree of Life will be in God’s Paradise (garden/park) … He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.Revelation 2:7 NASBSeccond, the Tree of Life will be in the New Jerusalem …1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.Revelation 22:1-2 NASBIf the Tree of Life is in the New Jerusalem and the Tree of Life is in God’s Paradise, then God’s Paradise must be in the New Jerusalem or it must be the New Jerusalem.
The New Jerusalem is not Heaven because it will come down from Heaven …1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth pkmtyolped away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:1-2 NASB Paradise is not Heaven because it’s at least a part of the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of Heaven from God.
Scott
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Post by TarueBeliever on Oct 28, 2004 20:03:43 GMT -5
Let’s look at this verse …
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:44 NASB
To get a better feel for what Paul intended, let’s look at this verse in Greek …
44 spei'retai sô'ma psuchiko'n , egei'retai sô'ma pneumatiko'n . ei e'stin sô'ma psuchiko'n , e'stin kai' pneumatiko'n . 1 Corinthians 15:44 NA26
Translating each word from Greek to English …
spei'retai [spei'rô] (v 3rd sg pre pas ind) <he/she/it> is sown sô'ma [sô'ma] (n nom sg neu) <a> physical body psuchiko'n [psuchiko's] (adj nom sg neu) natural , [,] (punc) , egei'retai [egei'rô] (v 3rd sg pre pas ind) <he/she/it> is awakened sô'ma [sô'ma] (n nom sg neu) <a> physical body pneumatiko'n [] (adj nom sg neu) spiritual . [.] (punc) . ei [ei] (conj) if e'stin [eimi'] (v 3rd sg pre act sg) <he/she/it> exists sô'ma [sô'ma] (n nom sg neu) <a> physical body psuchiko'n [psuchiko's] (adj nom sg neu) natural , [,] (punc) , e'stin [eimi'] (v 3rd sg pre act sg) <he/she/it> exists kai' [kai'] (conj) and/also/even pneumatiko'n [] (adj nom sg neu) spiritual . [.] (punc) .
Putting the translation together …
It is sown a natural, physical body, it is awakened a spiritual, physical body. If there exists a natural, physical body, there also exists a spiritual one.
The Greek word "sô'ma" didn't just mean "body." It meant something solid, having three dimensions. It was the opposite of the spirit. Literally the word meant "that which casts a shadow."
The natural body, controlled by the mind and soul, is "sown." It is awakened as a "spiritual body." It is still a physical body. Flesh and blood. Solid and three dimensional. However, instead of being controlled by the mind, the emotions, and the natual desires, it is then controlled by the spirit.
When Jesus was resurrected, his body was real. It was flesh and bone. He ate. People touched him.
When is this "awakening?" It is the resurrection before the final judgment before Jesus. There is no mention in this verse of the soul/spirit going to Heaven between the sowing and the awakening.
Scott
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Post by AlphaOmega on Nov 3, 2004 11:29:28 GMT -5
Philip, I neglected to answer this post of yours to me: That is the how Christians believe that God created the universe, out of nothing. He did not need the matter to rearrange, or use to build the universe. What do you think the matter was doing before God decided to create the universe? Just lying around in blocks? As I stated in a response to you, if matter and energy and the rules of physics and everything still existed, then it would severely limit what and who God is. What you are arguing is for a finite God, and as Christians we believe in an infinite God. And here is my answer: God created matter out of energy, and that energy came from Him. God inhabits infinite Time and infinite Space, and so is not reduced in any way. Christian.
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Nov 3, 2004 12:04:18 GMT -5
Philip, I neglected to answer this post of yours to me: And here is my answer: God created matter out of energy, and that energy came from Him. God inhabits infinite Time and infinite Space, and so is not reduced in any way. Christian. Yawn, wake me up when you have taken the time to learn physics before you start telling everyone that.
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