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Post by Archangelwolf on Jul 12, 2004 1:55:00 GMT -5
Ahhh, Protestant...
Seems we disagree yet on another thing. Jesus died for our sins 2000 years ago. They are already forgiven. It is a gift of grace. However, what we do with this gift is what can separate us from God; which is the second death.
This is where I part from my Southern Baptist upbringing, in that I believe that it is possible to "fall from grace." You see, Jesus died as atonement for the sins of all of humanity. That atonement went into effect IMMEDIATELY. But, just like a newborn baby, what we do with this gift of grace is our own choosing. We can take it and dump it in a trash can, like an unopened present on our doorstep. This is where our free will comes into play.
The second death is eternal separation from God. The doors to hell are locked from the inside. Those who experience the second death do so at their own choosing (at least, initially; although I bet they change their minds afterwards....when it is too late.).
You claim that we our sins our forgiven when we repent. I understand why you believe this way, for I did too at one time. The problem with this is that it is dependant on our actions rather than Jesus's action. It takes the focus off of the cross, and onto ourselves. Also, it is completely impossible for human beings to wholeheartedly repent, because our corrupted human nature still loves to sin; even after we believe.
I suppose that we will have to agree to disagree. I do not believe that observing a Lord's Day on Sunday or any other day is the mark of the beast. If I am wrong, then let judgment fall where it may.
Arch.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 12, 2004 2:38:31 GMT -5
Ahhh, Protestant... Rather stupid tragic descision to make. The Judgement against receiving the mark is the most fearful in the bible. Sunday sacredness is the mark of the beast. If you still are keeping this symbol of rebellion, the false sabbath, at the return of Christ then you are lost.
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Post by babysis on Jul 12, 2004 9:38:11 GMT -5
Protesant, how do you explain that going to church on Sunday is the mark of the beast when the mark will be a visible mark on the hand or the forehead?
Does a person get "I go to church on Sunday" tattooed to their head?
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Post by LauraJean on Jul 12, 2004 9:51:14 GMT -5
If you still are keeping this symbol of rebellion, the false sabbath, at the return of Christ then you are lost. The thing I can't get out of my mind is that every time Paul discusses how we are to act --what the Law boils down to-- he talks about Love. He doesn't talk about when we must observe the Sabbath. Our scripture lesson yesterday reminded me of this again: GAL 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.[/u] ... 13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. 16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.[/color] (me here: Where is the part about Sunday Sabbath?) continuing.... I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its pkmtyolpions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
See you in Heaven, Prot. Oops, wait; maybe not: You once referred to Christ's body as "that ridiculous cookie" so I think this applies to you. 1CO 11:28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.LJ
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Post by stevec on Jul 12, 2004 11:50:56 GMT -5
Rather stupid tragic descision to make. The Judgement against receiving the mark is the most fearful in the bible. Sunday sacredness is the mark of the beast. If you still are keeping this symbol of rebellion, the false sabbath, at the return of Christ then you are lost. The MotB is for non-believers, not those who have already accepted Jesus. By saying differerently you are making salvation a work, not by grace. You're right, that is a stupid, tragic decision to make. Except you are the one who is making it.
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Post by Traffic Demon on Jul 12, 2004 12:06:47 GMT -5
stevec - "You're right, that is a stupid, tragic decision to make. Except you are the one who is making it."
Very nicely said.
Protestant - I'm pretty sure that God's a lot more concerned that we worship Him as opposed to when we worship Him.
--Strong Traf And I'm all outta bubble gum
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Post by Protestant on Jul 13, 2004 2:52:14 GMT -5
babysis
I have put up a thread called "the mark of the beast, scripture not speculation" It is all explained there.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 13, 2004 2:55:45 GMT -5
Traffic Demon
If that were the case then God would not have written the sabbath commandment in stone with His own finger.
--Strong Traf And I'm all outta bubble gum[/quote]
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Post by Protestant on Jul 13, 2004 3:19:17 GMT -5
stevec
If you read Rev 13 you will see that the mark is a part of counterfeit worship. The mark originates from within the church as only church goers get involved in worship.
Sunday is a work of man. The sabbath is a God given rest indicating that salvation is not of works.
Really and what decision is that? Why do you think that obeying God is a stupid tragic decision?
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Post by Protestant on Jul 13, 2004 3:38:38 GMT -5
LauraJean
Yes Love for God and Love for man. Loving and worshipping God is shown by the first 4 commandments. Loving Man is shown by the other 6 commandments
MATTHEW 22:35-40. “Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying ‘Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?’ Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind’ this is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
The law and the prophets here refers to the Old Testament. Jesus is quoting these two commandments from the writings of Moses. The command to love God is from Deuteronomy 6:5. The command to love man is from Leviticus 19:18. The two great commandments are the basis of the Ten Commandments. The first four of the Ten Commandments describe how to love God while the remaining six commandments describe how to love our fellow man. These two commandments do not supersede or replace the Ten Commandments because God commanded the Israelites to keep these two commandments at the same time that He commanded them to obey the Ten Commandments.
No i was referring to the blasphemy of the RCC pkmtyolm where a piece of bread is worshipped as though it were God himself. Idolatry. But that subject is for another thread.
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Post by LauraJean on Jul 13, 2004 9:54:17 GMT -5
stevec If you read Rev 13 you will see that the mark is a part of counterfeit worship. I read Rev 13 and saw nothing of the sort, except by the tortured logic put forth in your "mark of the beast" thread. In that "study" you misrepresent/misunderstand so much of scripture that I can understand how you arrived at your conclusion, however erroneous. But as Steve said, the MotB is for non-believers. That much is quite clear in Rev 13 and even more so in Rev 14. The more I see of SDA theology, the more I see a church who ignores or changes the meaning of any scripture that doesn't jive with their prescribed idea of salvation. Everything I see tells me the SDA teaches salvation by works. The Bible doesn't. Peace, LJ
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Post by stevec on Jul 13, 2004 12:34:52 GMT -5
The more I see of SDA theology, the more I see a church who ignores or changes the meaning of any scripture that doesn't jive with their prescribed idea... Congratulations, LauraJean!!! You now have a firm grasp of SDA doctrine.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 13, 2004 15:58:38 GMT -5
What a complete raft of ignorant garbage. Rev 13:12 He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.
Rev 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury,True believers dont engage in false worship. Only deceived believers. You are both ignorant of scripture .
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Post by babysis on Jul 13, 2004 16:37:47 GMT -5
What a complete raft of ignorant garbage. Rev 13:12 He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.
Rev 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury,True believers dont engage in false worship. Only deceived believers. You are both ignorant of scripture . You do realize in reading that scripture that it is talking about specifically worshiping the beast. Not about any type of false worship. Surely you see that.
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Post by HomeAtLast on Jul 15, 2004 23:45:14 GMT -5
LauraJean No i was referring to the blasphemy of the RCC pkmtyolm where a piece of bread is worshipped as though it were God himself. Idolatry. But that subject is for another thread. Who worships bread? Is that some new age religion. Sure glad that as a Roman Catholic I do not fall into idol worship. I only worship The Holy Triune God we all love. Blessings to all, Ann
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