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Post by TarueBeliever on Jun 26, 2004 15:31:30 GMT -5
I was born an' raised an' "born again" in the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC). I don't attend the local SBC Church jus' raht now 'cause the local emphasis is not on salvation but on building a huge, monumental complex of impresive buildings to attract the local young urban professional couples with their 1.3 children in their Land Rovers. The pastor is very political and is a "respector of persons." If you're not a big giver to the church and the Republican Party, you don't exist. Basically the local church ain't nothin' but a big ol' clique. There are those there who are workin' from within an' from without to change things. Please pray for 'em.
Anyway, for the text of the official Southern Baptist beliefs, goto ...
The Baptist Faith and Message at
www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp
For articles explaining these beliefs by Southern Baptists, goto to ...
www.bpnews.net/bpcollectionnews.asp?ID=23
TB
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Post by Protestant on Jun 27, 2004 0:48:23 GMT -5
i had a quick look at your statement of beliefs.
This one is totally unbiblical
VIII. The Lord's Day
The first day of the week is the Lord's Day. It is a Christian institution for regular observance. It commemorates the resurrection of Christ from the dead and should include exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private. Activities on the Lord's Day should be commensurate with the Christian's conscience under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
Exodus 20:8-11; Matthew 12:1-12; 28:1ff.; Mark 2:27-28; 16:1-7; Luke 24:1-3,33-36; John 4:21-24; 20:1,19-28; Acts 20:7; Romans 14:5-10; I Corinthians 16:1-2; Colossians 2:16; 3:16; Revelation 1:10.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Jun 27, 2004 10:09:14 GMT -5
Here's the section from The Baptist Faith and Message concerning the day of worship. I don't think all the references are relevant.
VIII. The Lord's Day
The first day of the week is the Lord's Day. It is a Christian institution for regular observance. It commemorates the resurrection of Christ from the dead and should include exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private. Activities on the Lord's Day should be commensurate with the Christian's conscience under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 "Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11 NASB
1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath." 3 But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions, 4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone? 5 "Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent? 6 "But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 "But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMpkmtyolpION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." 9 Departing from there, He went into their synagogue. 10 And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"--so that they might accuse Him. 11 And He said to them, "What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 "How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." Matthew 12:1-12 NASB
1 Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. Matthew 28:1 NASB
27 Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 "So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath." Mark 2:27-28 NASB
1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him. 2 Very early on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. 3 They were saying to one another, "Who will roll away the stone for us from the entrance of the tomb?" 4 Looking up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away, although it was extremely large. 5 Entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting at the right, wearing a white robe; and they were amazed. 6 And he said to them, "Do not be amazed; you are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has risen; He is not here; behold, here is the place where they laid Him. 7 "But go, tell His disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see Him, just as He told you.'" Mark 16:1-7 NASB
1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. Luke 24:1-3 NASB
33 And they got up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found gathered together the eleven and those who were with them, 34 saying, "The Lord has really risen and has appeared to Simon." 35 They began to relate their experiences on the road and how He was recognized by them in the breaking of the bread. 36 While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be to you." Luke 24:33-36 NASB
21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." John 4:21-24 NASB
1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb. John 20:1 NASB
19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." 24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe." 26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" John 20:19-28 NASB
7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight. Acts 20:7 NASB
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. 10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. Romans 14:5-10 NASB
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. 2 On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 NASB
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— Colossians 2:16 NASB
16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. Colossians 3:16 NASB
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, Revelation 1:10 NASB
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Post by stevec on Jun 27, 2004 10:38:22 GMT -5
Well said, Tarue.
Do Baptists observe the Sabbath? Absolutely! We just don't do it in a pharisaical, legalistic way. If you read your NT with an open heart and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit you will see (as Tarue partially quoted above) Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. As long as we are in Him, we rest in Him. We observe the Sabbath 24/7!
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Post by AuntRonda on Jun 27, 2004 10:53:07 GMT -5
Excellent job, TB and SteveC
Ronda
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Post by Protestant on Jun 27, 2004 15:52:46 GMT -5
Here's the section from The Baptist Faith and Message concerning the day of worship. I don't think all the references are relevant.i dont think any are relevant. None of those verses indicate in any way a change in the day of worship. None support the false idea that sunday is the Lords day.
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Post by Protestant on Jun 27, 2004 15:56:11 GMT -5
Well said, Tarue. Do Baptists observe the Sabbath? Absolutely! We just don't do it in a pharisaical, legalistic way. If you read your NT with an open heart and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit you will see (as Tarue partially quoted above) Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. As long as we are in Him, we rest in Him. We observe the Sabbath 24/7! What a raft of crap. Baptists do NOT observe the sabbath at all. It is not possible to observe the sabbath 24/7 as you put it because the sabbath is the 7th day. What you call pharisaical and legalistic is what i call obeying God. At least be honest with yourself. You do not observe the sabbath.
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Post by stevec on Jun 27, 2004 16:03:24 GMT -5
What a raft of crap. Baptists do NOT observe the sabbath at all. It is not possible to observe the sabbath 24/7 as you put it because the sabbath is the 7th day. What you call pharisaical and legalistic is what i call obeying God. At least be honest with yourself. You do not observe the sabbath. You just don't get it, do you? I abide in Jesus and He abides in me. I have the peace of Jesus (i.e. the Sabbath) all the time--24/7/365. Lord, please open this person's eyes.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Jun 27, 2004 20:08:39 GMT -5
I think there's been a misunderstanding. The scriptures I posted are the references given by the Southern Baptiptist's as support for their statement about the Lord's Days. They are not references I myself came up with.
In fact, I don't agree that all these references are relevant.
First and foremost, Sunday, the first day of the week, IS NOT the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week. Any of the references to the Sabbath are irrelevant. Southern Baptists are not keeping the Sabbath by worshipping on Sunday.
But I don't have a problem with that. The commandments to keep the Sabbath weren't given to the Southern Baptists. The Sabbath Commandments were given specifically to the Nation of Israel as part of God's covenant with them.
As for the Southern Baptists and anyone else, if they want to worship God on Sunday that's great! If someone wants to praise God on Tuesday, that's wonderful too. And if a brother or sister wants to praise God from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday, I'm all for it.
TB
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Post by Protestant on Jun 28, 2004 6:51:31 GMT -5
You just don't get it, do you? I abide in Jesus and He abides in me. I have the peace of Jesus (i.e. the Sabbath) all the time--24/7/365. Lord, please open this person's eyes. i understand what you are saying but i dont accept it because it is unbiblical. Having peace in Jesus as you call it is NOT the sabbath. The sabbath is ceasing to work on saturday. Any other so called description of the sabbath is garbage. If you kept the sabbath everyday as you say then you would never do any work at all.
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Post by Protestant on Jun 28, 2004 6:55:21 GMT -5
author=TarueBeliever
Glad that you understand that fact.
you have no understanding of the New Covenant.
Sunday sacredness is the mark of the beast.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Jun 28, 2004 9:16:50 GMT -5
Protestant,
Please explain the New Covenant. Specifically, when did it go into effect?
What are the specifications of the New Covenant? What am I required to do? What has God promised to do?
TB
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Post by keikikoka on Jun 28, 2004 11:47:59 GMT -5
The old covenant was a covenant established with the nation of Isreal only. It was not to Adam, Abraham, or any ofter nation. Its terms were on the tablets of stone-the 10 commandments and following laws and decrees.
Exodus 34:27-28 27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
Deut 5:1-3 Then Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I am speaking today in your hearing, that you may learn them and observe them carefully. 2 "The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 "The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today.
The old covenant was time bound, made for the Isrealites to follow untill the seed of Abraham(Jesus) came.
Galatians 3:19, 24-25
19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
The new covenant is a better covenant.
Hebrews 8:6 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
The new covenant consists of the holy spirit indwelling those who believe, to guide them, and Jesus acting as a mediator between God and man.
Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
Hebrews 8:10-12 "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 11 " AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
Those in the holy spirit have been released from the law, the old covenant.
Romans 7:6
6 But now we have been eleased from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Romans 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Jun 30, 2004 8:21:38 GMT -5
Keikikoka, YiNeBheb,
I'm in agreement with you ;D, but I'd still like to hear Protestant's side of the story.
TB
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Post by Protestant on Jul 1, 2004 2:57:25 GMT -5
keikikoka
The New covenant began at the death of Jesus. It involes the Holy Spirit writing law on the heart.
You are misquoting Paul. Being released from the law is being released from the laws condemnation not being released from obedience.
ROMANS 7:1-6 1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5For when we were in the flesh, the sinful pkmtyolpions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet.
This illustration involves three characters. Two husbands and one woman. By law the woman was allowed to be married to one husband only. If one husband died she was allowed to remarry. If she was married to both husbands at the same time she was called an adulteress. And the penalty for adultery was death. The Christian church is represented by the woman. The second husband, according to verse 4, is “Him who was raised from the dead”-Christ. Christians who have taken upon themselves the name of Christ are symbolically married to Him. However if Christians are living with the first husband at the same time, they are symbolically committing adultery and are therefore lost people having the death penalty over them.
Who or what is the first husband that Christians must not associate with? Verse 4 and 6 indicate that the first husband is the law. The law is the ten commandments as is indicated in verse 7, eg “you shall not covet” is the tenth commandment.
In v4 it says we have become dead to the law. That is, we died the law didn’t. Therefore the law must still be in force for us to have to die to it. The reason we have to die is because the law demands the death of the transgressor, and because all have sinned all must die [Rom 2:23]. The Gospel teaches that Christ has died in our place, so the law recognises Christs death as our death, the law sees the body of Christ and regards that body as ours, therefore the law no longer wants us dead because it sees us as already dead. IE V4 we “HAVE BECOME DEAD TO THE LAW THROUGH THE(dead)BODY OF CHRIST ”.
V6 says we have “BEEN DELIVERED FROM THE LAW”. That is delivered from the condemnation of the law, delivered from the death penalty. The pkmtyolpage does NOT say that we have been delivered from obedience. The first husband is not obedience to the law; we have not been released from obedience. We have been released from sin -disobedience. In Romans 6:18 & 22 Paul says that we have been set free from sin and become the slaves of righteousness.
1 JOHN 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin 1 JOHN 4:3 Sin is lawlessness
Therefore all unrighteousness is lawlessness Righteousness is obedience to the Law
Which law? The law that exposes sin. See Rom 7:7. By being set free from sin and becoming the slaves of righteousness we have been set free from the transgression of the law and become slaves to obedience to the law. The first husband that we have been set free from is the condemnation of the law caused because of the transgression of the ten commandments. Therefore the transgression of the ten commandments is the first husband. To say that we have been delivered from obedience to the ten commandments is to say the opposite of the new covenant of the Spirit, because the new covenant makes us commandment keepers.[Heb 10:16]
The new way of the spirit not the old way of the letter. The old way of the letter means to try to obey God without having your mind controlled by the Spirit of God. A person in this condition cannot obey God. The new way of the spirit means to have your mind controlled by the spirit of God to enable us to obey God.
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