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Post by TarueBeliever on Jul 4, 2004 13:04:29 GMT -5
Only those who are doers of the law are declared righteous in Gods sight. That's bad too bad for all us who've ever lived, because no one except Christ Jesus, kept all the "the Law" as given to the Israelites by Moses.
But lucky for us, it's not true. Abraham was counted as righteous because of his faith, 400+ years before "the Law" was given.
The Apostle Paul wrote ...8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.Romans 13:8-10 NASBThis the law Christ Jesus taught. Love. We are justified by our faith in him. Not by keeping "the Law." Because of our faith in Christ, our names are written in the Book of Life. This is our only hope for eternal life.
TB
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Post by Protestant on Jul 4, 2004 15:59:01 GMT -5
Protestant,
Please go back and read the entire chapter. You've pulled a verse out of context and claimed a meaning for it that it does't have. It wasn't about "the Law." It was about the Church at Corinth. Paul was writing to say they were like a letter of reccomendation ...1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some, letters of commendation to you or from you? 2 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God.2 Corinthians 3:1-4 NASBTB i am well aware of what the chapter says. I have not taken anything out of context. didnt you read the posts i wrote on the new covenant? You dont seem to want to try to explain why the ten commandments are in heaven. Maybe you cant because it destroys your false arguements.
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Post by Archangelwolf on Jul 5, 2004 5:16:45 GMT -5
Protestant,
Do you honestly believe that if a person worships God/Jesus/Holy Spirit on Sunday that they will go to Hell?
We are not saved by the day in which we worship. We are saved by grace. We can not achieve it, not matter what we do. Our sins were forgiven 2000 years ago on the cross.
It is like the giving of life. No mother becomes pregnant because they deserve to. Life is given according to the grace of God. We have 15 year-olds getting pregnant and throwing their children in trash cans. Why does God bless them with a child they do not want, yet not allow infertile parents to concieve? It is not because God is mean or cruel. It is because life is given according to His grace. Neither one of these mothers deserve children according to their own merits. However, God blesses out of grace, not by works.
The same is true in death. A sinful man lives a long, prosperous life into his 90's. A young youth pastor, devoting his life to the Lord, is killed by a stray bullet in a gang-related incident. The bullet was not even meant for him. Why does God allow this to happen? Grace. It is not according to the merits of these individuals that life was given, and taken away. It is by God's grace that each of them have life.
Our salvation is not dependant upon our modes of worship. It is not even dependant upon the lives we lead. To say so is to say that our salvation depends on OUR OWN ACTIONS. This completely negates our dependance on CHRIST'S ACTION on the cross.
We are saved by GRACE. The day in which we observe the sabbath has no bearing on our salvation whatsoever. This whole argument is a moot point.
Arch.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Jul 5, 2004 10:38:20 GMT -5
i am well aware of what the chapter says. I have not taken anything out of context. didnt you read the posts i wrote on the new covenant? You dont seem to want to try to explain why the ten commandments are in heaven. Maybe you cant because it destroys your false arguements. First, you DID take 2 Corinthians 3:3 out of context. You posted that Paul was talking about "the Law" when he certainly wasn't. The subject of the sentance is the plural pronoun "you." Paul was writting that the recipients of the letter, the members of the Church at Corinth, were ...a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.2 Corinthians 3:3 NASBYour using 2 Corinthians 3:3 as proof that the "Ten Commandments" are what's written on a Christian's heart is not valid.
Second, You (and most SDA apologists) make a statement like ...- John saw an Ark of the Covenant in the Temple of God in Heaven.
- The Ark of the Covenant was made for carrying the Ten Commandments.
- An Ark of the Covenant in the Temple of God in Heaven must therefore contain a copy of the Ten Commandments.
- If the Ten Commandments are in Heaven, all people must still obey them.
When in the timeline did John "see" an Ark of the Covenant in Heaven? Let's read ...15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." 16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth." 19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm. Revelation 11:15-19 NASBFrom reading the verse IN CONTEXT we see that John "saw" an Ark of the Covenant in the future (in his future, at a time that is still in our future) at the time when all the dead will be judged. Had that Ark always been in Heaven? The NASB says the ark "'appeared' in His temple." The NT Greek word translated as "appeared" is "ô'phthê." It comes from from the root verb "hora'ô" meaning "perceive with the mind." The inflection of the verb is third person, single number, aorist tense, pkmtyolpive voice, and indicative mood. From the aorist tense, we know the "appearance" took place then at that time. He saw it "appear." John didn't use the the Greek perfect tense to say that it had already been there and he saw that it "appeared" to still be there." Thus, the Ark of the Covenant is not now in Heaven. John saw in a vision that it will appear in Heaven at the time of judgement.
But, even if there were an Ark of the Covenant somewhere -- if the original made under the direction of Moses himself were found -- it wouldn't matter to me. That set of laws was not made for me. I am not a Son of Israel. "The Law" was a part of the Old Covenant. It's not a part of the New Covenant. The law written written on my heart is not "the Ten Commandments." Those laws were weak and only told one what not to. They don't tell one how to love or give one the power to love. If you're obeying Christ's commandment to love others, the "Ten Commandments" are already fulfilled.
TB
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Post by Protestant on Jul 6, 2004 2:46:32 GMT -5
archangeldream
In the last days, absolutely. sunday sacredness is the mark of the beast. It signifies rebellion against God. Keeping the man made sabbath instead of the sabbath of God
we are saved by grace. But disobedience to the law of God is rebellion. That will be punished by the second death.
no they were not. Sins are not forgiven until they are repented of.
You dont seem to understand that salvation consists of 3 promises (1) Being made a commandment keeper by the Spirit of God (2) Forgiveness of sin (3) Immortality given at the second coming.
Keeping the ten commandments is part of the first covenant promise.
the day on which you worship indicates whether you obey God or if you are still in rebellion.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 6, 2004 3:22:52 GMT -5
TarueBeliever
Paul was talking to the corinthian church. He said that they were a letter that is read by everyone. What was written on stone is written on the heart. Showing that their characters were changed by the spirit of God.
I stand by my interpretation. You do what you like.
Yes this is right. Jesus is high priest in the sanctuary in heaven as written in hebrews. We dont just rely on revelation. The sanctuary on earth is a copy of the one in heaven. The one on earth contains the ten commandments therefore so does the heavenly original.
When in the timeline did John "see" an Ark of the Covenant in Heaven? Let's read
That judgement is going on now. not in our future. The judgement takes place before the second coming of Christ.
according to Hebrews, Yes.
Yes John was seeing the day of atonement that was a future event in his day. The high priest went in to the Most Holy Place once a year on the day of atonement. It appeared to John as he was watching the vision. That does not mean that it wasn't there previously. The reason the ark was seen was because the temple was opened.
ok so cut Rev 11:19 out of your bible. The ark has always been there because the temple has always been there. The Ten commandments in it are the standard by which we will be judged.
Really, it never ceases to amaze me the mental gymnastics that truth haters go through to deny the truth. The New Covenant sanctuary where Jesus is the high priest has always contained the ark and the ten commandments.
You say that you are not a son of Israel. Paul says otherwise
Gal 3: 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Eph 2:12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit. [/color]
Christians are now the sons of Israel with Jesus as the King and high priest. We were aliens and excluded from Israel but because of Jesus we are no longer excluded.
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Post by babysis on Jul 6, 2004 12:33:53 GMT -5
This was the daily scripture I got in my e-mail. Thought it was relevent.
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Romans 7:6
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Post by Protestant on Jul 7, 2004 2:31:05 GMT -5
babysis
This has all been quoted and answered on the last post on page one.
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Post by keikikoka on Jul 7, 2004 7:22:27 GMT -5
Basically, what SDA's say, is that what the words actually say isn't what they mean. They will tell you that "released from the law" doesn't mean released from the law, only released from the consequences of breaking the law. They will say that we don't have to serve the written code doesn't mean we don't have to follow the law, because the spirit will guide you into following the 10 commandments.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 7, 2004 7:48:33 GMT -5
keikikoka
You falsely interpret "released" as meaning released from obedience. Whereas the context of the book indicates "released" means released from the death penalty demanded by the law.
the law written on the heart by the spirit is the New Covenant. Heb 10:16.
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Post by keikikoka on Jul 7, 2004 9:03:58 GMT -5
The context relates being released to the law to a biblical marriage. Agreed?
In the marriage, the wife is to submit to the husband. Unless the husband has died she is to still bound to the husband. Only when the husband dies is she allowed to be bound to another or she would be commiting adultery.
In this pkmtyolpage, the law is the first husband. Gods people make up the wife. At one point the wife was bound to the husband, but she died to her husband and the marriage was terminated. She is no longer bound to submit to the law, the first husband. She is to submit to Christ, the second husband.
I totally agree. However, I don't believe this is the Mosaic Law, or any part there of, because that was a covenant between God and the Isrealites. I believe this is the law of love. This is the new commandment that Christ gave to us.
Also, the 10 commandments are only a part of the law. Why don't you keep the entire law?
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Post by TarueBeliever on Jul 9, 2004 16:13:50 GMT -5
Paul was talking to the corinthian church. He said that they were a letter that is read by everyone. What was written on stone is written on the heart. Showing that their characters were changed by the spirit of God. I stand by my interpretation. You do what you like. Let’s look at this pkmtyolpage again …1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some, letters of commendation to you or from you? 2 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.2 Corinthians 3:1-6 NASBPaul didn’t write of anything here as ever having been written on tablets of stone. He wrote to the Corinthians that they were, "a letter … written … not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts." Paul doesn’t say anything about what IS written on the heart as ever having BEEN written on stone. He only says that it IS NOT written on stone. Here we have another case of taking a verse out context. Earlier in this chapter, Paul wrote …16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.Galatians 3:12 NASBThen at the end of the chapter, Paul wrote …26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendant, heirs according to promise.Galatians 3:26-29 NASBPaul wrote for Christians there is neither Jew nor Gentile. Paul wrote if you are a Christian, then you are Abraham’s descendant (singular), according to a promise heirs. He is not saying Christians have become Sons of Israel or Jews. He is saying that through our relationship with Christ, we take part in the promises God made to Abraham and to Abraham’s one descendent, Jesus Christ.
Paul wrote in Ephesians …11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands -- 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.Ephesians 2:11-22 NASBPaul doesn’t say Gentile Christians become Sons of Israel, subject to "the Law." Paul does say Christ abolished "the enimity" (the Law) so that Christian Gentiles and Christian Jews could join together to become one NEW people who have access to God through himself. Former Gentiles are no longer aliens but are citizens together with former Jews in God’s family. All are joined together into the dwelling place of God.
TB
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Post by Protestant on Jul 9, 2004 18:13:05 GMT -5
TarueBeliever
The inference to the Ten Commandments is obvious. This is proven in verse 7 of the same chapter where Paul contrasts the Old Covenant with the New. 2 Cor 3:7 "Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious"
The Ten are what he is refering to as being written on stone. Clearly the New Covenant is the ten being written on the heart.
Revelation 15
Seven Angels with Seven Plagues
1I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues--last, because with them God's wrath is completed. 2And I saw what looked like a sea of gpkmtyoll mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God 3and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb: "Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the ages. 4Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed." 5After this I looked and in heaven the temple, that is, the tabernacle of the Testimony, was opened. 6Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues.
You think that the ten are abolished! Here we see that before the second coming of Christ which takes place during the sixth plague. The Ten commandments are seen in the New Covenant heavenly sanctuary. Here called the "tabernacle of the testimony" The testimony being the ten commandments.
The Greek word used here for 'temple' is "naos" which in Revelation refers to the innermost part of the temple, the Most Holy place, where God's throne is located. The heavenly temple is referred to as "the tabernacle of the testimony" because the law of God was located in the most holy place of the old testament tabernacle. The seven angels having the seven plagues emerge from the most holy place of the heavenly temple to show that no person or nation can with impunity defy the law of God.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 9, 2004 18:24:09 GMT -5
Paul wrote in Ephesians … [/color] 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands -- 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.Ephesians 2:11-22 NASBPaul doesn’t say Gentile Christians become Sons of Israel, subject to "the Law." Paul does say Christ abolished "the enimity" (the Law) so that Christian Gentiles and Christian Jews could join together to become one NEW people who have access to God through himself. Former Gentiles are no longer aliens but are citizens together with former Jews in God’s family. All are joined together into the dwelling place of God.
TB[/quote] EPHESIANS 2:11-22 Brought Near by His Blood 11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- 12that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Christ Our Peace 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Christ Our Cornerstone 19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. This entire pkmtyolpage refers to the amalgamation of both Jew and Gentile believers into one NEW group - CHRISTIANS. “Broken down the middle wall of division between us” “middle wall” literally means: ‘The partition wall which is the fence’ The sacred limits of the Jewish Temple were fenced off by a low balustrade of stone, with columns at intervals. On the columns were inscriptions written in Greek and Latin warning all Gentiles not to pkmtyolp this boundary on pain of death. In 1871 an inscribed stone was discovered in Jerusalem and is now in the museum at Istanbul. This inscription read:- “Let no foreigner enter within the barrier and enclosing wall about the Temple. But whoever may be caught shall be responsible for his own death that will follow.” The court of the Israelites was in the inner Temple where no Gentile or foreigner was allowed. Paul is saying that the blood of Christ has broken down this wall of partition that separated Jew and Gentile when it came to worshipping God in the Jerusalem Temple. verse 19 “Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.” As a result of this there is no longer a distinction between Jew and Gentile. When worshipping God the ONE NEW man that has been created from the TWO OLD ones is the CHRISTIAN. verse 15 “Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace.” This verse does not say the ten commandments are abolished. To say that would do away with the new covenant. The law of commandments contained in ordinances refers to the laws regulating worship in the new covenant regarding the segregation of Jew and Gentile. This segregation has been abolished. In the eyes of God the two old men, Jew and Gentile, have been abolished. God only recognises the one NEW man:- the CHRISTIAN man.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Jul 10, 2004 14:19:39 GMT -5
Protestant,
You made my point ... I didn't become a "Son of Israel" when I became a Christian. I went from unbeliever to Christian, for there are no Gentiles or Jews in Christ.
TB
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