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Post by PhilipDC78 on Jul 29, 2004 9:14:19 GMT -5
They have. You seem to be ignorant of history as well as scripture. I can give 100 Godly, well respected theologians for every one of the people you give that say that worshipping on Sunday is evil. One of the great things about Christianity is that it can be easily understood, even by the simplest mind, or the mind of a child, and so if it was so obvious, than many more people would be crying out the abomination of Sunday worship. As it is, I will continue to worship every day of the week. So! We follow the bible, Thats what counts. That is great, I follow the Bible too, and I go to church on Sundays. Well you can follow them if you wish. I will follow the example of Jesus That's great! So do I. Jesus worked on the sabbath, healed on the sabbath, walked on the sabbath, and taught on the sabbath. Thats right. and if you deliberately reject one of God's specific commandments what does that say about the condition of your heart? That is why I don't reject God's commandments. I celebrate the sabbath every Sunday. so what has that to do with the subject. Being a Jew the thief was a sabbath keeper. You do not know this. As a known thief he could have very well been shunned from the temple over his lifestyle. Jewish tax collectors, prostitutes, and others were also kept out of the temple. Yet Jesus said that he would be with him that day in paradise. Keep it up and you will get the mark of the beast. Sorry, I don't buy into your garbage theology and speculation on the end times. You don't know what it is going to be like and neither do I. I will live today like Christ will come for me tomorrow, and prepare myself in case he takes a while and I must face hardship. I put my faith in Christ, not in what you say.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 29, 2004 16:07:20 GMT -5
So! what does that prove? They are heretics. like you.
You have just indicated that you do not follow the bible
He did God's work not mans. You are saying that Jesus is a lawbreaker and a sinner.
the only problem with this crap is that sunday is not the sabbath.
nor i yours. ;D
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Jul 29, 2004 17:48:50 GMT -5
So! what does that prove? They are heretics. like you. That proves it right there for me. You do not know what you are talking about. You are saying that many of the greatest workers of God in history are heretics? No matter what you can say can make me believe you now after saying that. You are thoroughly wrong on this concept. He did God's work not mans. You are saying that Jesus is a lawbreaker and a sinner. Nope, just saying I follow His example. the only problem with this crap is that sunday is not the sabbath. It is for me, and for millions of followers of Christ throughout history. I guess this is the end for me. I cannot get you to see the truth, and you obviously won't ever convince me. I tried to see it your way, I tried to think of it, but you just go too far. Even people in your own denomination don't agree with your extreme viewpoints. (I been asking around for weeks now since you put of that nonsense that you call "proof"). I am even convinced that your view is not even accepted, official doctrine of the Seventh Day Adventist church. Please Protestant, read your Bible, pray, and seek the face of Christ. Only He can guide you and show you the truth. I for one will not argue with you any longer. It is not worth the time.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 30, 2004 3:44:21 GMT -5
if you followed his example you would observe the sabbath on saturday as Jesus did. Yes well Sunday isnt the sabbath of the Bible nor of God. So why it would be for you i dont know I assure you it is. I dont know who you have been talking to but they sound unlearned to me. i have been doing that for years. Good! see ya.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Jul 30, 2004 12:29:24 GMT -5
Protestant,
The SDA Church teaches …
The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.
However the actual wording of the "fourth commandment" requires only that those under its jurisdiction rest and not work. There are no words about worship and ministry in the commandment itself …
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11 NASB
TB
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Post by Protestant on Jul 30, 2004 17:58:39 GMT -5
Protestant,
The SDA Church teaches …The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.However the actual wording of the "fourth commandment" requires only that those under its jurisdiction rest and not work. There are no words about worship and ministry in the commandment itself … Luke 4:16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. Jesus is the ultimate interpreter of scripture. His custom was to worship on the sabbath. The Sabbath Lev 23:3 " 'There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD
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Post by TarueBeliever on Jul 30, 2004 21:45:59 GMT -5
Luke 4:16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. Jesus is the ultimate interpreter of scripture. His custom was to worship on the sabbath. The Sabbath Lev 23:3 " 'There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD - Leviticus 23:3 is not a part of the fourth commandment.
- "Assembly" and "communion" aren't the same thing.
- Jesus was a Jew living before the Christ died on the cross and thus was subject to "the Law."
- Jesus isn't mentioned in the fourth commandment.
The Jews were required to rest, worship, and assemble on the Sabbath, but not all because of the fourth commandment. Other commandments were involved. Commandments which SDAs claim were not given by God but only by Moses. Commandments that weren't kept in the ark, but were handwritten in a book and kept in the side of the ark. They claim these commandments were "nailed to the cross" by Jesus. How can a commandment in Leviticus be of consequnce today?
TB
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Post by TarueBeliever on Aug 4, 2004 8:10:56 GMT -5
Protestant,
The SDA Church teaches ...The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another.[1]... and uses scripture as follows to "prove" its teachings ...13 If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot From doing your own pleasure on My holy day, And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable, And honor it, desisting from your own ways, From seeking your own pleasure And speaking your own word,14 Then you will take delight in the LORD, And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.Isaiah 58:13-14 NASBI can see clearly how the Sabbath was a day of commuion with God. But I see nothing in the scriptures about it being a day to be spent with "each other." From the time of Moses to the time of Christ, families saw each other all the time. They worked together on the farm in the fields or in the shops. They didn't lead separate lives during working hours like Americans have done since the begining of the Industrial Revolution.TB [1] www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html, Section 19. The Sabbath.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Aug 5, 2004 17:44:41 GMT -5
The SDAs teach that the Book of Daniel predicted the baptismal year of the Savior using a so-called "day-for-a-year" principle of interpretation of Daniel 9:25. The verse in the original Hebrew is ...
wetheda' wethasekkel min-motsa' dabar lehashiyb welibenoth yerushalaim 'ad-mashiycha nagiyd -- shabu'iym shibe'ah weshabu'iym shishiym ushenayim bashub wenibenethah rechob wecharuts ubetsoqh ha'ibbiym
Translated into English, the verse is ...
And-you-must-know and-you-must-understand from-going-out a-word for-the-restoring and-for-building Jerusalem until-an-annointed leader – sevens seven and-three-twenties and-two sevens and-will-be-built a-wide-market and-a-ditch and-in-distess the-times
There are no "days" mentioned in this prophecy in the first place! The KJV mistranslated the Hebrew word for "sevens" as "weeks."
There is no "day-for-a-year" principle in interpretation.
TB
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Post by TarueBeliever on Aug 6, 2004 8:22:31 GMT -5
In Hebrew, the word "SheBa'" means "seven."
The word is made plural and genitive by adding suffixes: "SHiBaTHaYiM" meaning "of sevens."
TB
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Post by TarueBeliever on Aug 6, 2004 14:30:10 GMT -5
Seventh Day Adventist "A-day-for-a-year" theorists point to the following pkmtyolpage and others like it as one "proof" that "days" actually stood for "years" ...[1]So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.Genesis 5:5 NASBThe original Hebrew, transliterated into English, reads ...WaYiHeYu KaL-YeMeY 'aDaM 'aSheR-ChaY BeSha' Me'owTh ShaNaH uSheLoShiYM ShaNaH WaYaMoThTranslated into English, (I hope) it reads ...And-were all-days-of-him Adam that-he-lived nine hundreds years and-thirty years and-he-died.This says that ALL THE DAYS of Adam were equivalent to 930 YEARS. It doesn't say a day is equivalent to a year.
TB [1] sdanet.org/atissue/end/yearday.htm
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Post by Protestant on Aug 6, 2004 18:10:19 GMT -5
This year/day principle is nothing new. Bible scholars have understood it for centuries. The famous Scottish mathematician Lord John Napier (1550-1617), the inventor of Logarithms, was also a keen Bible student. After an extensive 5 year study of Daniel and Revelation had this to say regarding the prophetic days :- “In the seventy weeks of Daniel, a day to be taken for a year, extending in the whole to 490 years; otherwise, that prophecy of the Messiah’s coming, would not fall upon the just time of Christ’s coming, as necessarily it ought to do. So then, a prophetical day is a year, then a week seven years, a month thirty years (because a Hebrew and Grecian month has thirty days) and consequently the prophetical year is 360 years.” John Napier, “A Plain Discovery of the Whole of Revelation of Saint John” p.2. Quoted in “The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers” Ed. E. L. Froom. vol2 p457, Review and Herald, Washington 1948. The Anglican preacher and clergyman Howard Grattan Guinness said the 1260 days were 1260 years. “It is “time, times, and a half” or “1,260 days”. This is a miniature symbol of the true period… Scripture elsewhere gives us the scale on which it is to be enlarged, “a year for a day.” It means therefore 1260 years.” “Romanism and the Reformation” H. Gratten, Guinness 1891, p 39 The Methodist Bible commentator Adam Clarke said the 1260 days of Daniel were 1260 years. Clement of Alexandria applied the year/day principle to the Seventy week prophecy.490 days=490 years. Rashi (a Hebrew scholar 1105 AD.) Translated the 2300 days in Daniel 8:14 as 2300 years. Nahawendi (a Hebrew scholar 9th century) Translated the 2300 days in Daniel 8:14 as 2300 years. These are only a few of many scholars through the centuries who have recognised this important principle of Apocalyptic Biblical interpretation. In the Prophecies of Daniel and Revelation the Antichrist is to reign and persecute God’s people for :- Dan 7:25 “...a time and times and a half a time.” Rev 13:5 “...for forty-two months.” ie 1260 days (30 days per Jewish month). By comparing Revelation 12:6 and 12:14 the expression time, times and half a time are found to be 1260 days. Rev 12:6 “...They should feed her there 1260 days.” Rev 12:14 “...where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time...” In these two verses the same event is described and the same time period is mentioned. The church is to flee into the wilderness away from the dragon for certain time. The Bible tells us that the time, times and half a time equals 1260 days. But because in Daniel and Revelation a day represents a year then this time period is 1260 years. Joachim, abbot of Calabria, one of the great ecclesiastical figures of the twelfth century, applied the year/day principle to the 1260 year period. “The woman, clothed with the sun, who signifies the church, remained hidden in the wilderness from the face of the serpent, a day without doubt being accepted for a year and a 1260 days for the same number of years. The Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2:7-8 describes the reign of Antichrist in terms of centuries. It began to appear in his day and will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ’s return. Paul’s description is consistent with the length of the time prophecies of Daniel and Revelation
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Post by TarueBeliever on Aug 7, 2004 9:55:15 GMT -5
This year/day principle is nothing new. Bible scholars have understood it for centuries. The famous Scottish mathematician Lord John Napier (1550-1617), the inventor of Logarithms, was also a keen Bible student. After an extensive 5 year study of Daniel and Revelation had this to say regarding the prophetic days :- “In the seventy weeks of Daniel, a day to be taken for a year, extending in the whole to 490 years; otherwise, that prophecy of the Messiah’s coming, would not fall upon the just time of Christ’s coming, as necessarily it ought to do. So then, a prophetical day is a year, then a week seven years, a month thirty years (because a Hebrew and Grecian month has thirty days) and consequently the prophetical year is 360 years.” John Napier, “A Plain Discovery of the Whole of Revelation of Saint John” p.2. Quoted in “The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers” Ed. E. L. Froom. vol2 p457, Review and Herald, Washington 1948. John Napier was a truly great mathmatician. As an engineer I'm greatful for his discovery of logarithms. But his understanding of this so called "year-for-a-day" principle must have been very flawed. In his work, A Plaine Discovery of the Revelation of St John, he predicted the return of Christ in 1786. As this didn't occur, his belief in the year-for-a-day principle doesn't add much creedence to the principle.As I've shown, Daniel 8:14 doesn't mention "days." Nor does it mention "weeks" exactly. It refers to "sevens." No "YoWM" (day) appears in the Hebrew text. The actual Hebrew text of Daniel 8:14 (transliterated into English) reads ...WayYo'MeR 'eLay – 'aD 'eReB BoQeR 'aLPaYiM WuSheLoSh Me'owTh WeNiTseDDaQh QoDeShTranslating the individual Hebrew words into English ...WayYo'MeR ['amar] (v 3rd sg mas cmp) and he said'eLay ['aniy] (pn dat 1st sg) to me– [-] (punc) -'aD ['ad] (prep) until'eReB ['ereb] (n mas sg) <an> eveing/twilight/duskBoQeR [boqer] (n mas sg) <a> morning/sunrise/dawn'aLPaYiM ['elep] (n gen mas pl) of thousandsWuSheLoSh [shalosh] (n pl dual) and threeMe'owTh [me'ah] (n sg fem) hundredWeNiTseDDaQh [tsedaq] (n mas) and it will be made rightQoDeSh a holy placePutting the individual words together results in ...And he said to me – until {two} thousand and three hundred eveing/twilight/dusk{s} {and} morning/sunrise/dawn{s} and a holy place will be made right. A "morning" and an "evening" together do not make a "day." You'd also have to have an afternoon and a night to make a complete day.
TB
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Post by Protestant on Aug 7, 2004 17:12:36 GMT -5
John Napier was a truly great mathmatician. As an engineer I'm greatful for his discovery of logarithms. But his understanding of this so called "year-for-a-day" principle must have been very flawed. In his work, A Plaine Discovery of the Revelation of St John, he predicted the return of Christ in 1786. As this didn't occur, his belief in the year-for-a-day principle doesn't add much creedence to the principle.As I've shown, Daniel 8:14 doesn't mention "days." Nor does it mention "weeks" exactly. It refers to "sevens." No "YoWM" (day) appears in the Hebrew text. The actual Hebrew text of Daniel 8:14 (transliterated into English) reads ...WayYo'MeR 'eLay – 'aD 'eReB BoQeR 'aLPaYiM WuSheLoSh Me'owTh WeNiTseDDaQh QoDeShTranslating the individual Hebrew words into English ...WayYo'MeR ['amar] (v 3rd sg mas cmp) and he said'eLay ['aniy] (pn dat 1st sg) to me– [-] (punc) -'aD ['ad] (prep) until'eReB ['ereb] (n mas sg) <an> eveing/twilight/duskBoQeR [boqer] (n mas sg) <a> morning/sunrise/dawn'aLPaYiM ['elep] (n gen mas pl) of thousandsWuSheLoSh [shalosh] (n pl dual) and threeMe'owTh [me'ah] (n sg fem) hundredWeNiTseDDaQh [tsedaq] (n mas) and it will be made rightQoDeSh a holy placePutting the individual words together results in ...And he said to me – until {two} thousand and three hundred eveing/twilight/dusk{s} {and} morning/sunrise/dawn{s} and a holy place will be made right. A "morning" and an "evening" together do not make a "day." You'd also have to have an afternoon and a night to make a complete day.
TB i was showing you that the year/day principle has been around for centuries long before the SDA church. hahaha ;D now you are grasping at straws. Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, etc Gen 1:5 "...So the evening and the morning were the first day"
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Post by TarueBeliever on Aug 8, 2004 14:36:31 GMT -5
Protestant,
The Hebrew of Genesis 1:3-5 is as follows ...
3 WaYYoW'MeR 'eLoHiYM YeHiY 'oWR WaYHiY-'oWR 4 WaYYaRe' 'eLoHiYM 'eTH-Ha'oWR KiY-ToWB WaYYaBeDDeL 'eLoHiYM BeYN Ha'oWR WuBeYN HaChoSheK 5 WaYYiQeRa' 'eLoHiYM La'oWR YoWM WeLaChoSheK QaRa' LaYeLaH WaYeHiY-'eReB WaHiY-BoQeR YoWM 'eChaD
My humble translation ...
3 And God said, "Light will exist" and Light then existed. 4 And God saw that the light was good and God separated from between the light and the darkness. 5 And God called the light "day" and the darkness He called "night" and one day was an evening and a morning.
The New American Standard Bible says ...
3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. Genesis 1:5 NASB
This does seem clear to me now. I'm glad that YOU brought it to my attention! An EVENING and a MORNING together make a DAY. An EVENING and a MORNING together DON'T make a YEAR. It's cut & dried. Thanks for those verses.
TB
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