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Post by genesda on Dec 9, 2003 7:24:37 GMT -5
Re-posting of the same material form your hard drive doesn't make it any more correct than the first time you posted it. As you indicated before, most of this documentation came from some "pamphlets" or such that you copied. I hope you can understand why I feel it necessary to find to the original source and not a source I may perceive to be biased. The periodicals from the late 1800's that you quote Cardinal Gibbons are only available on microfilm. I've ordered them through my local library and it should take 6-8 weeks for them to get it. That is the way I can be assured that the document has not been creatively edited. His book, "Faith of Our Fathers" is available in paperback from Amazon,com for $12.95. It's a little steep for a paperback, but I may have to just go for it. As far as the piece title "Dignity and Duty of the Priest", I cannot find anything like that anywhere. I thought I may have found something once before when you tried to use it as some sort of authoritative proof. But now, I can find nothing. The only thing I can think of that this article used a quote from Alphonse de Liguori (an 18th century theologian and founder of the Redemptorist Fathers). I don't think this is a book, but another periodical. I'll search this one out to check ot for accuracy. I can send you a copy of "Rome's Challenge" a lot sooner if you wish. It is a reprinted compilation of the articles as they appeared in the "Catholic Mirror" with the notes being identified as what they are and not part of the articles.
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Post by marysia on Dec 9, 2003 8:12:34 GMT -5
Yes, but there is still no definition of "grace". [/color][/quote] well since you didn't like my definition of grace as a gift from God and the various forms in which we can find where it is in our own lives - here's from Webster... grace -- a disposition to be generous of helpful. Mercy; clemency. A favor rendered by one who need not do so; indulgence. Divine loe and protection bestowed freely upon mankind. the state of being protected or sanctified by the favor of God. grace is a gift from God (sorry if i'm repeating myself from my initial post). It comes in a variety of forms and at a variety of times. it comes in His time and measure. it's one of His great gifts to us.
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Post by RealistState on Dec 9, 2003 10:13:53 GMT -5
I can send you a copy of "Rome's Challenge" a lot sooner if you wish. It is a reprinted compilation of the articles as they appeared in the "Catholic Mirror" with the notes being identified as what they are and not part of the articles. The operative word here is "re-printed". Re-printed by who? Thank you for the offer, but I'll wait until I get the microfilm. Besides, "Rome's Challenge" is available right here: www.seventh-day.org/romes%20challenge.htmAs I said earlier, this only appears on sites that have an agenda that could be percieved to be biased.
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Post by LauraJean on Dec 9, 2003 10:23:31 GMT -5
Then what good is your "grace"?
What do you mean, "what good is my Grace?"" Without it I am nothing!! I am ***ed. I am hell-bound. With it I am sanctified. I am justified. I am saved. What good is grace indeed!
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Post by LauraJean on Dec 9, 2003 11:13:57 GMT -5
If what I wrote is incorrect, I suggest that you point out BIBLICALLY where I've erred.
Okay. AC 15:6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." RO 4:16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring-- not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.... RO 4:20 Yet he [Abraham] did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23 The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. RO 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. ... RO 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. GAL 2: 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!GAL 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?GAL 3:15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise..... GAL 3:21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. GAL 3:23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. GAL 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. EPH 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 2TI 1:8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life-- not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.. TIT 3:4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. Clearly, trying to keep the law will not save you. It will not get you into heaven. You are not justified by the Law. You are not sanctified by the Law. You are not made righteous by the Law. You only have these things through the Grace of God. Peace, LJ
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Post by marysia on Dec 9, 2003 12:18:56 GMT -5
OTS - LJ - thanks for your "signature" i now have that song running thru my head ;D
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Post by LauraJean on Dec 9, 2003 12:31:28 GMT -5
OTS - LJ - thanks for your "signature" i now have that song running thru my head ;D ;)I can't think of many better to have stuck in my head!
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Post by Phoebe on Dec 9, 2003 22:01:19 GMT -5
well since you didn't like my definition of grace as a gift from God and the various forms in which we can find where it is in our own lives - here's from Webster... grace -- a disposition to be generous of helpful. Mercy; clemency. A favor rendered by one who need not do so; indulgence. Divine loe and protection bestowed freely upon mankind. the state of being protected or sanctified by the favor of God. grace is a gift from God (sorry if i'm repeating myself from my initial post). It comes in a variety of forms and at a variety of times. it comes in His time and measure. it's one of His great gifts to us. Undeserved kindness? I've heard it defined that way.
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Post by genesda on Dec 10, 2003 8:26:21 GMT -5
well since you didn't like my definition of grace as a gift from God and the various forms in which we can find where it is in our own lives - here's from Webster... grace -- a disposition to be generous of helpful. Mercy; clemency. A favor rendered by one who need not do so; indulgence. Divine loe and protection bestowed freely upon mankind. the state of being protected or sanctified by the favor of God. grace is a gift from God (sorry if i'm repeating myself from my initial post). It comes in a variety of forms and at a variety of times. it comes in His time and measure. it's one of His great gifts to us. Yes, and it's by God's grace that I breathe every day, but that's not what is meant or received by eating a piece of wafer at a Rc pkmtyolm. What is the grace you claim you receive by eating the wafer, and what good is that "grace"?
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Post by genesda on Dec 10, 2003 8:27:51 GMT -5
The operative word here is "re-printed". Re-printed by who? Thank you for the offer, but I'll wait until I get the microfilm. Besides, "Rome's Challenge" is available right here: www.seventh-day.org/romes%20challenge.htmAs I said earlier, this only appears on sites that have an agenda that could be percieved to be biased. Thanks!! I didn't know it was online.[/color]
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Post by genesda on Dec 10, 2003 8:45:07 GMT -5
What do you mean, "what good is my Grace?"" Without it I am nothing!! I am d**med. I am hell-bound. With it I am sanctified. I am justified. I am saved. What good is grace indeed! tHEN YOU ADMIT THAT THIS IS WHAT YOU GET FROM, COMMUNION, BAPTISIM, ....what else?
Simply put, the grace of God is a gift that is unmerited. No act or work can get this grace for you. To state that you get grace from baptisim or communion is FALSE!
Without repentence,and turning from sin, there is no saving grace from God.
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Post by genesda on Dec 10, 2003 8:50:48 GMT -5
[quote author=LauraJean
Clearly, trying to keep the law will not save you. It will not get you into heaven. You are not justified by the Law. You are not sanctified by the Law. You are not made righteous by the Law. You only have these things through the Grace of God.
Peace, LJ
You've never seen me say that there is salvation in law keeping. I don't disagree with anything you've posted in the rest of this post. I disagree with your conclusion about whether the law should be kept. You cannot ask forgiveness and then continue with a sinful lifestyle or your asking forgiveness is useless. sin is transgression of the law.
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Post by genesda on Dec 10, 2003 8:54:54 GMT -5
[quote author=LauraJean
Clearly, trying to keep the law will not save you. It will not get you into heaven. You are not justified by the Law. You are not sanctified by the Law. You are not made righteous by the Law. You only have these things through the Grace of God.
Peace,
Why don't you see "law and grace" on the "Sunday sacredness thread, pg.35 LJ
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Post by marysia on Dec 10, 2003 9:00:45 GMT -5
Yes, and it's by God's grace that I breathe every day, but that's not what is meant or received by eating a piece of wafer at a Rc pkmtyolm. What is the grace you claim you receive by eating the wafer, and what good is that "grace"?
[/color][/quote] since pkmtyolm is more than just "eating a wafer" there is must gotten in the form of grace. it's difficult to explain but bear with me as i try... on my morning or afternoon walk to weekday pkmtyolm (just under a mile) i think about those for whom i need to pray, the troubles in my life i need to present - basically i talk with my Friend(s), Jesus/God/Holy SPirit. i walk into the chapel and greet those i've come to know as friends, some will ask me to keep someone, themselves or some specail need also in my prayers. we all come before God, we pray that our sins and iniquities be forgiven, that we are given strength to walk through the day with Christ in our forefront - that everything I do today will be for you and through you. it hardly ever fails than when i have an issue of particular distress the readings and gospel will "hit home". the priest will discuss the readings and gospel after helping us/me to know just how it all makes sense in my life. we pray Hosanna in the Highest and also Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us and so on. I present myself humbly before the altar and kneel before the presence of God and Christ. I take him into my self and beg Him to stay with me that day. to give me the strength/grace that only He can provide. i like to go daily in the early mornings before work, especially when i am in high demand at work. i pray to Christ to stay with me that day and guide my steps, actions and especially words. i will generally make it through the day in high esteem and it's only with the Grace of God that I do so -- even to the point of not "getting into it" with my controller - and that my friend is amazing and ONLY with God's assistance. that is the grace i receive from God from my daily eucharista - my getting up earlier, braving the bridges earlier, walking through town - i'm offering that to God in thanksgiving for all that He gives to me. i wish you could attend one of the pkmtyolmes here, for i know you've said you've attended and the people were not really participating. i have to admit that especially on saturday and sundays there ARE people who go because they feel they HAVE to. if you could attend with people that go because they WANT to (like the mon-fri services) you would see a big difference. GRace from God comes in many forms - whether it's by attending pkmtyolm with others in praise and worship, walking along the beach or in the forest and finding peace from your worries, being spared an accident, feeling despondant and lonely before going to sleep one evening thinking - i have no one to say good night too and then it hits you like a warm hug, you look up and tell our Lord - good night Jesus - for you realize oh so suddenly that you are never alone.
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Post by LauraJean on Dec 10, 2003 10:15:56 GMT -5
tHEN YOU ADMIT THAT THIS IS WHAT YOU GET FROM, COMMUNION, BAPTISIM, ....what else? Simply put, the grace of God is a gift that is unmerited. No act or work can get this grace for you. To state that you get grace from baptisim or communion is FALSE! Without repentence,and turning from sin, there is no saving grace from God. I did not say we received grace by doing these things. I said God gives us His grace through these things. If you would like the scriptural references that show this, I'd be happy to share them with you. (BTW, the "what else" is hearing the Word, Romans 10:17 and elsehwere) Peace, LJ
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