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Post by Phoebe on Dec 7, 2003 20:26:26 GMT -5
LauraJean and others, We cannot take Scripture out of context to support our views. Yes, in John 6:55 The Lord said, "For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed." But, He explained in verse 63 that His words were spiritual, and thus, should be applied in a spiritual manner. Now, let's take a look at Matthew 26:26-28. If you take this pkmtyolpage by itself, it would seem to support your beliefs. But, if you read verse 29, The Lord clearly said what they were drinking was "this fruit of the vine." He didn't refer to it as His literal blood. He called it "the fruit of the vine." God bless! Sincerely, SonWorshiper John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine dresser." Wouldn't this make his blood the fruit of the vine?
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Post by genesda on Dec 8, 2003 5:40:16 GMT -5
For the record, I did not say communion was a requirement for salvation. It is a means of Grace. Not the same thing. And, unfortunately, I cannot discuss in great depth the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist except in how it differs from the Lutheran teaching. (Transsubstantiation v. Real Presence) Then what good is your "grace"?
In other words, you don't know anything except what you've been xyhgt fed about the "eucharist".
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Post by genesda on Dec 8, 2003 5:45:09 GMT -5
This is a good site www.catholic-pages.com/dir/real_presence.aspBIBLE PROVES REAL PRESENCE OF CHRIST IN EUCHARIST Rev. Daniel Maher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the sixth chapter of the Gospel of John, Jesus promised to give us His flesh to eat and His blood to drink. To those of us who profess belief in Christ in the twentieth century, the thought that Jesus would become for us actual food and thereby enter into us to provide nourishment and refreshment to our soul is a wonderfully consoling thought. For those Christians who profess the faith of the Catholic Church, this thought is much more than mere consolation, it is the core belief of Catholics regarding their encounter with Christ in the action termed Holy Communion. If we project ourselves back to the time of Christ and envision ourselves as among those of a Jewish background who had been drawn by the dynamic preaching and inspiring example of Jesus of Nazareth, His promise would perhaps be seen in quite a different light. Upon Jesus' extraordinary revelation contained in this section of the gospel, there occurs a pkmtyolm exodus of followers from His camp, seeming to indicate that those who were somewhat skeptical disciples of this self-proclaimed Messiah saw those words not so much as a consolation, but as instead more of a confirmation of sorts. The thought that one would proclaim His flesh to be food and His blood to be drink must have confirmed for many what some had no doubt always suspected, "Jesus of Nazareth is crazy!"
According to Jewish custom, the blood of a person or animal was the life force of that being and therefore sacred and incapable of being shed or drunk by a believer. It is easy to understand, but no less regrettably felt, that the fledgling faith of so many of those original disciples was shaken by words uttered by the Savior himself. What a tragedy that the Lord who wanted to be so generous as to share His own life-force with them, as He did for us all through the outpouring of His blood from the cross, should be rejected as a sort of madman for possessing such a love for His chosen children!
Yet today still we see around us continuing rejection of Christ's instructions that we are to eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to have life. This decision by most Christian denominations to interpret such a key section of the Bible in a figurative way seems curious in light of the fact that flocks of disciples walked away from Jesus at the time of its proclamation. One would think that if His message had somehow been taken too literally by the disturbed crowds, and in fact He intended it in only a symbolic way, Jesus would have corrected the misunderstanding among the departing throngs, rather than let them walk away from His saving message.
The assumption that Jesus was speaking only figuratively also would seem a bit deflated by the language employed in this section of Scripture itself. The Greek language in which John's gospel was originally written is consistent in its use of words which translate into English as "eat" and "flesh," words which would seem rather strong if the eating intended was merely spiritual or if the flesh partaken of was meant in a spiritual sense too. Instead it seems more logical to assume that a real partaking of the flesh and blood of Christ is commended, an act of eating which produces marvelous spiritual effects.
In the pkmtyolm, Catholics believe that simple bread and wine brought to the altar as a token offering to God are marvelously changed by God's power during the praying of the pkmtyolm into the body and blood of Christ for distribution to believers in the action of Holy Communion. God is so aflame with love and longing for His people that He will go to even seemingly crazed extremes to express that love. Holy Communion is one of those cases where God's love is so great as to make His zealous love for His people appear mad. What a different world it would be if we strove to return God's love with an equal pkmtyolpion!
(Fr. Daniel Maher is a graduate of the College of William and Mary and of St. Charles Seminary. He has served as associate pastor of St. Leo the Great Church in Fairfax, VA and as spiritual director of the Fairfax Curia of the Legion of Mary.)
God bless This is a good explanation of what the Rcc believes about the verses described, but nevertheless, still wrong. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Dec 8, 2003 5:48:15 GMT -5
gene, without faith, the bible is just another book just as without faith the Eucharist is just a piece of bread. Blessings, Ann Yes, and the Rcc once taught "through faith" that the Earth was flat!! A faith in something that is false is useless!
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Post by genesda on Dec 8, 2003 5:52:43 GMT -5
The priest does not transubstantiate anything. It is Our Lord, Jesus Christ, who makes anything possible. It His gift to us. What!!?? You'd better read up on your Rc teachings!
395. Catholic Church, Roman-Priesthood-Priest Held to Be Creator of theCreator Source: Alphonse -de Liguori, Dignity and Duties of the Priest; or, Selva (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, 1927), pp. 26, 27, 31-35. [p. 261 With regard to the power of priests over the real body of Jesus Christ, it is of faith that when they pronounce the words of consecration the Incarnate Word has obliged himself to obey and to come into their hands under the sacramental species.... We find that in obedience to the words of his priests--Hocest Corpus Meum [This is my body]- God himself descends on the altar, that he comes wherever they call him, and as often as they call him, and places [p. 271 himself in their hands, even though they should be his enemies. And after having come, he remains, entirely at their disposal; they move him as they please, from one place to another; they may, if they wish, shut him up in the tabernacle, or expose him on the altar, carry him outside the church; they if they choose, eat his flesh, and give Him for the food of others.... [ 31] Besides, the power of the surpkmtyolpes that of the Blessed Virgin Mary; for, although this divine mother can pray for us, and by her praters can obtain whatever she wishes, yet cannot absolve a Christian from the smallest sin. . . . [P. 32] Thus the priest may, in a certain manner, be called the creator of his Creator, since by saying the words consecration, he creates, as it were, Jesus in the sacrement, by giving Him a sacremental existence, and produces him as a victim to be offered to the Father.... [P. 331 "The power of the priest," says Bernardine of Sienna, "is the power of the divine person; for the transubstantiation of the bread requires as much power as the creation of the world." . . . [P. 34] "Let the priest," says St. Laurence Justinian, "approach the altar as another Christ." Accordino to St. Cyprian, a priest at the altar performs the office of Christ.... The priest holds the place of the Saviour himself, when, by saying "Ego te absolvo," he absolves from sin. This great power, which Jesus Christ has received from his eternal Father, he has communicated to his priests.... [P. 35] The Jews justly said: Who can forgive sins but God alone? But what only God can do by his ornnipotence, the priest can also do by saying "Ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis" ["I absolve you from your sins"]. . .,. Cardinal Hugo represents the Lord addressing the following words to a Priest who absolves a sinner: "I have created heaven and earth, but I leave to you a better and nobler creation, make out of this soul that is in sin a new soul, that is, make out of a slave of Satan, that the soul is, a child of God." [/b][/color]
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Post by genesda on Dec 8, 2003 5:54:13 GMT -5
You have so totally misunderstood my post that I am unsure where to start to help you understand. I will ponder on it for a while and get back to you. But for starters, I'll point to Ephesians 2:4-9 and explain that the Bible tells us where we are put in touch with the Grace discussed there: Communion, Baptism, and hearing the Word. Maybe you just don't understand what you've written. Words have meanings and the words you wrote mean what they say.[/color]
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Post by genesda on Dec 8, 2003 6:00:38 GMT -5
Oh, one other thing.... If you say you have place the plan of salvation into your own hands and if that isn't false doctrine, I don't know what is. Peace, LJ Repentence of sin and following Him is the only way God made.
The above is not my plan of salvation, it's God's. I believe it is your Luthern church that has it's own plane of salvation that is similar to the Rcc.
If what I wrote is incorrect, I suggest that you point out BIBLICALLY where I've erred. As far as false doctrines are concerned, you don't have to look any further than your Sunday sacredness and souls that live on after a body dies to find that. Both of them are straight from the PAGANS!
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Post by marysia on Dec 8, 2003 8:32:27 GMT -5
Yes, and the Rcc once taught "through faith" that the Earth was flat!! A faith in something that is false is useless!
[/color][/quote] WOW every native american was Rcc -- that's amazing! EVERYONE taught that the earth was flat silly
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Post by Pietro on Dec 8, 2003 8:33:18 GMT -5
Yes, and the Rcc once taught "through faith" that the Earth was flat!! A faith in something that is false is useless!
[/color][/quote] Please show us this teaching. It does not exist.
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Post by marysia on Dec 8, 2003 11:55:42 GMT -5
Then what good is your "grace"?
[/color][/quote] i'm sorry you don't understand what good "grace" is or does. it's a gift from God. a sense, a state, a blessing. grace is what (IMO) i receive everytime i do something i know CHrist is proud of - it's almost like a fatherly hug - at least the feeling i get is one of comfort and joy. it's a peace that comes when i'm not sure and pray with all my soul and come to a realization. it's the sense of knowing -- i did the right thing doubling back to give my unbrella to that homeless guy walking the streets. it's the feeling of - Lord you are with me, thank you for the reminder, now i can accomplish anything - after pkmtyolm. grace is the gift that only God can give to the faithful. when you live according to His will and not your own, it's through His grace that you stay focused. i guess that's why some say - May the Grace of God go with you or there but for the Grace of God go I.
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Post by HomeAtLast on Dec 8, 2003 12:10:51 GMT -5
Yes, and the Rcc once taught "through faith" that the Earth was flat!! A faith in something that is false is useless!
[/color][/quote] gene, LOLOLOL!!!! No really, be serious, gene! Blessings, Ann
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Post by HomeAtLast on Dec 8, 2003 12:12:01 GMT -5
i'm sorry you don't understand what good "grace" is or does. it's a gift from God. a sense, a state, a blessing. grace is what (IMO) i receive everytime i do something i know CHrist is proud of - it's almost like a fatherly hug - at least the feeling i get is one of comfort and joy. it's a peace that comes when i'm not sure and pray with all my soul and come to a realization. it's the sense of knowing -- i did the right thing doubling back to give my unbrella to that homeless guy walking the streets. it's the feeling of - Lord you are with me, thank you for the reminder, now i can accomplish anything - after pkmtyolm. grace is the gift that only God can give to the faithful. when you live according to His will and not your own, it's through His grace that you stay focused. i guess that's why some say - May the Grace of God go with you or there but for the Grace of God go I. marysia, As usual, very well said! Blessings for a wonderful day. Ann
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Post by RealistState on Dec 8, 2003 22:17:46 GMT -5
What!!?? You'd better read up on your Rc teachings!
[/color][/quote] Re-posting of the same material form your hard drive doesn't make it any more correct than the first time you posted it. As you indicated before, most of this documentation came from some "pamphlets" or such that you copied. I hope you can understand why I feel it necessary to find to the original source and not a source I may perceive to be biased. The periodicals from the late 1800's that you quote Cardinal Gibbons are only available on microfilm. I've ordered them through my local library and it should take 6-8 weeks for them to get it. That is the way I can be assured that the document has not been creatively edited. His book, "Faith of Our Fathers" is available in paperback from Amazon,com for $12.95. It's a little steep for a paperback, but I may have to just go for it. As far as the piece title "Dignity and Duty of the Priest", I cannot find anything like that anywhere. I thought I may have found something once before when you tried to use it as some sort of authoritative proof. But now, I can find nothing. The only thing I can think of that this article used a quote from Alphonse de Liguori (an 18th century theologian and founder of the Redemptorist Fathers). I don't think this is a book, but another periodical. I'll search this one out to check ot for accuracy.
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Post by genesda on Dec 9, 2003 7:17:32 GMT -5
WOW every native american was Rcc -- that's amazing! EVERYONE taught that the earth was flat silly They all believed it and were all wrong. That's my point. Faith is something that's false is useless![/color]
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Post by genesda on Dec 9, 2003 7:21:09 GMT -5
i'm sorry you don't understand what good "grace" is or does. it's a gift from God. a sense, a state, a blessing. grace is what (IMO) i receive everytime i do something i know CHrist is proud of - it's almost like a fatherly hug - at least the feeling i get is one of comfort and joy. it's a peace that comes when i'm not sure and pray with all my soul and come to a realization. it's the sense of knowing -- i did the right thing doubling back to give my unbrella to that homeless guy walking the streets. it's the feeling of - Lord you are with me, thank you for the reminder, now i can accomplish anything - after pkmtyolm. grace is the gift that only God can give to the faithful. when you live according to His will and not your own, it's through His grace that you stay focused. i guess that's why some say - May the Grace of God go with you or there but for the Grace of God go I. marysia, As usual, very well said! Blessings for a wonderful day. Ann Yes, but there is still no definition of "grace".[/color]
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