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Post by SonWorshiper on Dec 4, 2003 15:12:26 GMT -5
LauraJean,
Just to add to what I've previously written, and to counter what you've said about ingesting blood, Paul, indeed by inspiration of The Holy Spirit, instructed the New Testament church to abstain from "idolatry, fornication, things strangled, and from blood." (Acts 15:20).
Furthermore, Paul, once again by inspiration of The Holy Spirit, instructed the New Testament church to partake in communion in remembrance of our Saviour. (I Corinthians 11:23-26). Notice he did not make it a requirement for salvation.
The requirements for salvation are perfectly clear throughout The New Testament: repentance and faith in Christ. Then as Christians, we are to partake in The Lord's Supper "in remembrance of Him" and to "show The Lord's death until He comes." (I Cor. 11:26)
To make communion a requirement for salvation goes against the clear teachings of Scripture that tells us we are saved by grace through faith. The Catholic Church has contrived this doctrine to make men dependent upon Her (which is nothing more than a group of incredibly corrupt men), rather than on The Living God, who gave us Christ freely. (Romans 3:24, Romans 5:8-9, Romans 6:23, Romans 8:32, Ephesians 2:8-9).
The Catholic stance on communion is just not supported by Scripture. Scripture out of context? Yes. But not by Scripture when they are examined in their proper context.
Sincerely,
SonWorshiper
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Post by LauraJean on Dec 4, 2003 16:02:58 GMT -5
For the record, I did not say communion was a requirement for salvation. It is a means of Grace. Not the same thing.
For the sake of interest, let's move forward a few verses. What do you make of Paul's admonition in 1 Cor 11:29?
And, unfortunately, I cannot discuss in great depth the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist except in how it differs from the Lutheran teaching. (Transsubstantiation v. Real Presence)
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Post by Cohdra on Dec 4, 2003 16:26:00 GMT -5
This is a good site www.catholic-pages.com/dir/real_presence.aspBIBLE PROVES REAL PRESENCE OF CHRIST IN EUCHARIST
Rev. Daniel Maher
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In the sixth chapter of the Gospel of John, Jesus promised to give us His flesh to eat and His blood to drink. To those of us who profess belief in Christ in the twentieth century, the thought that Jesus would become for us actual food and thereby enter into us to provide nourishment and refreshment to our soul is a wonderfully consoling thought. For those Christians who profess the faith of the Catholic Church, this thought is much more than mere consolation, it is the core belief of Catholics regarding their encounter with Christ in the action termed Holy Communion.
If we project ourselves back to the time of Christ and envision ourselves as among those of a Jewish background who had been drawn by the dynamic preaching and inspiring example of Jesus of Nazareth, His promise would perhaps be seen in quite a different light. Upon Jesus' extraordinary revelation contained in this section of the gospel, there occurs a pkmtyolm exodus of followers from His camp, seeming to indicate that those who were somewhat skeptical disciples of this self-proclaimed Messiah saw those words not so much as a consolation, but as instead more of a confirmation of sorts. The thought that one would proclaim His flesh to be food and His blood to be drink must have confirmed for many what some had no doubt always suspected, "Jesus of Nazareth is crazy!"
According to Jewish custom, the blood of a person or animal was the life force of that being and therefore sacred and incapable of being shed or drunk by a believer. It is easy to understand, but no less regrettably felt, that the fledgling faith of so many of those original disciples was shaken by words uttered by the Savior himself. What a tragedy that the Lord who wanted to be so generous as to share His own life-force with them, as He did for us all through the outpouring of His blood from the cross, should be rejected as a sort of madman for possessing such a love for His chosen children!
Yet today still we see around us continuing rejection of Christ's instructions that we are to eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to have life. This decision by most Christian denominations to interpret such a key section of the Bible in a figurative way seems curious in light of the fact that flocks of disciples walked away from Jesus at the time of its proclamation. One would think that if His message had somehow been taken too literally by the disturbed crowds, and in fact He intended it in only a symbolic way, Jesus would have corrected the misunderstanding among the departing throngs, rather than let them walk away from His saving message.
The assumption that Jesus was speaking only figuratively also would seem a bit deflated by the language employed in this section of Scripture itself. The Greek language in which John's gospel was originally written is consistent in its use of words which translate into English as "eat" and "flesh," words which would seem rather strong if the eating intended was merely spiritual or if the flesh partaken of was meant in a spiritual sense too. Instead it seems more logical to assume that a real partaking of the flesh and blood of Christ is commended, an act of eating which produces marvelous spiritual effects.
In the pkmtyolm, Catholics believe that simple bread and wine brought to the altar as a token offering to God are marvelously changed by God's power during the praying of the pkmtyolm into the body and blood of Christ for distribution to believers in the action of Holy Communion. God is so aflame with love and longing for His people that He will go to even seemingly crazed extremes to express that love. Holy Communion is one of those cases where God's love is so great as to make His zealous love for His people appear mad. What a different world it would be if we strove to return God's love with an equal pkmtyolpion!
(Fr. Daniel Maher is a graduate of the College of William and Mary and of St. Charles Seminary. He has served as associate pastor of St. Leo the Great Church in Fairfax, VA and as spiritual director of the Fairfax Curia of the Legion of Mary.)
God bless |
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Post by SonWorshiper on Dec 4, 2003 17:07:28 GMT -5
LauraJean,
Well, at least we agree that it isn't a requirement for salvation. But, if we are saved by grace (and we are), and grace is administered by communion (as you say), aren't you saying that communion is a requirement to receive God's grace? And if you don't take communion, wouldn't one be without God's grace, and as such, not saved?
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Post by LauraJean on Dec 5, 2003 1:48:39 GMT -5
LauraJean, Well, at least we agree that it isn't a requirement for salvation. But, if we are saved by grace (and we are), and grace is administered by communion (as you say), aren't you saying that communion is a requirement to receive God's grace? And if you don't take communion, wouldn't one be without God's grace, and as such, not saved? Briefly, communion is A means of grace, not THE only means of grace. The other two are Baptism and hearing the Word. Any one of these things (and indeed, all!) bring to us God's grace. In fact, in my denomination, we do not commune people until they are old enough to understand what it is, as we take 1 Cor 11:29 seriously. But we do not withhold the other means from anyone. We baptize infants and begin sharing the Word of God before our babies are born.  Hope this helps! Peace, LJ |
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Post by genesda on Dec 5, 2003 7:17:22 GMT -5
Briefly, communion is A means of grace, not THE only means of grace. The other two are Baptism and hearing the Word. Any one of these things (and indeed, all!) bring to us God's grace. In fact, in my denomination, we do not commune people until they are old enough to understand what it is, as we take 1 Cor 11:29 seriously. But we do not withhold the other means from anyone. We baptize infants and begin sharing the Word of God before our babies are born. Hope this helps! Peace, LJ
For you to say that there are other ways of gaining heaven or salvation/grace is a false doctrine.[/color] |
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Post by marysia on Dec 5, 2003 8:53:49 GMT -5
one thing that seems apparent - it sounds like people are assuming you can participate in communion/Eucharist without already having come to accept Christ as your Saviour. those that receive without already having accepted are neither saved by the action or given graces. anyone can walk up and receive a piece of "bread" however without Christ in your heart/life it's only that, a piece of bread - or cardboard wafery thing  |
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Post by Pietro on Dec 5, 2003 11:04:59 GMT -5
Maybe Rory Cooney can help us out:
One is the body, one is the bread,
One are the living, the unborn, the dead.
One is the cup, one blood in us flows,
One is the breath of the star and the rose.
One are the Spirit, Creator, and Son,
Just as the source and the river are one.
One are the stranger, my foe, and my friend.
To this I can say: "Amen."
Gather, disciples, your Master to meet;
Learn to forgive from the bread that you eat.
Treasure the earth in the wine that is poured;
Taste and see the goodness, the love of the Lord.
Now split the timber, now turn the stone,
Look where you will: you are never alone.
High in the heavens, deep in the flood,
All things are charged with the presence of God.
I am the hungry, you are the poor,
God is the stranger who waits at the door.
Where any suffer, no one is free;
Whatever you do, then, you do it to me.
One is the body, one is the bread,
One are the living, the unborn, the dead.
One is the cup, one blood in us flows,
One is the breath of the star and the rose.
One are the Spirit, Creator, and Son,
Just as the source and the river are one.
One are the stranger, my foe, and my friend.
To this I can say: "Amen."
Beautiful song. Wouldn't it be foolish to try to make a law out of it. Yet that is what we try to do with the entire Bible.
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Post by genesda on Dec 5, 2003 11:15:44 GMT -5
one thing that seems apparent - it sounds like people are assuming you can participate in communion/Eucharist without already having come to accept Christ as your Saviour. those that receive without already having accepted are neither saved by the action or given graces. anyone can walk up and receive a piece of "bread" however without Christ in your heart/life it's only that, a piece of bread - or cardboard wafery thing[/u] [/quote] No, No, No!! Once the "priest" transubstanciates the wafer, it becomes Jesus as the Rcc teaches, fully body soul and Divinity.
However, I do agree that it is in reality only a piece of bread.[/color] |
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Post by HomeAtLast on Dec 5, 2003 13:15:21 GMT -5
Maybe Rory Cooney can help us out: One is the body, one is the bread,
One are the living, the unborn, the dead.
One is the cup, one blood in us flows,
One is the breath of the star and the rose.
One are the Spirit, Creator, and Son,
Just as the source and the river are one.
One are the stranger, my foe, and my friend.
To this I can say: "Amen."
Gather, disciples, your Master to meet;
Learn to forgive from the bread that you eat.
Treasure the earth in the wine that is poured;
Taste and see the goodness, the love of the Lord.
Now split the timber, now turn the stone,
Look where you will: you are never alone.
High in the heavens, deep in the flood,
All things are charged with the presence of God.
I am the hungry, you are the poor,
God is the stranger who waits at the door.
Where any suffer, no one is free;
Whatever you do, then, you do it to me.
One is the body, one is the bread,
One are the living, the unborn, the dead.
One is the cup, one blood in us flows,
One is the breath of the star and the rose.
One are the Spirit, Creator, and Son,
Just as the source and the river are one.
One are the stranger, my foe, and my friend.
To this I can say: "Amen."Beautiful song. Wouldn't it be foolish to try to make a law out of it. Yet that is what we try to do with the entire Bible. Pietro, Thank you so much for sharing that with us. that is beautiful. I will definitely look for that CD. Blessings, Ann |
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Post by HomeAtLast on Dec 5, 2003 13:16:49 GMT -5
No, No, No!! Once the "priest" transubstanciates the wafer, it becomes Jesus as the Rcc teaches, fully body soul and Divinity.
However, I do agree that it is in reality only a piece of bread. [/color][/quote] gene, without faith, the bible is just another book just as without faith the Eucharist is just a piece of bread. Blessings, Ann |
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Post by RealistState on Dec 6, 2003 8:42:31 GMT -5
The priest does not transubstantiate anything. It is Our Lord, Jesus Christ, who makes anything possible. It His gift to us.
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Post by LauraJean on Dec 6, 2003 12:05:41 GMT -5
Sorry, there has only been one plan of salvation, that is, there is only one way for man to receive salvation since Adam and that is by faith in Jesus as our Savior. Repentence of sin and following Him is the only way God made.
For you to say that there are other ways of gaining heaven or salvation/grace is a false doctrine. [/color][/quote] You have so totally misunderstood my post that I am unsure where to start to help you understand. I will ponder on it for a while and get back to you. But for starters, I'll point to Ephesians 2:4-9 and explain that the Bible tells us where we are put in touch with the Grace discussed there: Communion, Baptism, and hearing the Word. |
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Post by LauraJean on Dec 6, 2003 12:08:12 GMT -5
Oh, one other thing.... If you say Repentence of sin and following Him is the only way God made.
. [/color][/quote] you have place the plan of salvation into your own hands and if that isn't false doctrine, I don't know what is. Peace, LJ |
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Post by Phoebe on Dec 7, 2003 20:14:35 GMT -5
We were commanded by Christ to take and eat, and to take and drink.
Christ commanded the apostles to go forth and baptise.
(Hi Laura Jean!)
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