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Post by LauraJean on Dec 10, 2003 10:18:53 GMT -5
Why don't you see "law and grace" on the "Sunday sacredness thread, pg.35 I did. Maybe you missed my reply. Blessings, LJ
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Post by LauraJean on Dec 10, 2003 10:28:14 GMT -5
You've never seen me say that there is salvation in law keeping. I've seen you post plenty that there is aspodfija in law breaking, in direct contrast to Paul's admonition in Titus 3, or in 1 Timothy 1. Possibly where we're differing is here: I try to keep the law because I love God and I want to live in the way that pleases Him. You posted elsewhere that God doesn't want us to be afraid of Him, yet you preach fear and condemnation for not keeping your interpretation of God's Law. You seem to be saying that because you (try to) keep God's law more perfectly you are a Christian, but we both see in the Bible that keeping the Law doesn't make us a Christain. Do you see the dichotomy in your teachings? You and Prot haven't made a convincing case that keeping the Sabath on Sunday is a "sinful lifestyle." I'm sorry, I know you think you have, but you haven't. Blessings, LJ
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Post by genesda on Dec 11, 2003 6:11:12 GMT -5
I've seen you post plenty that there is aspodfija in law breaking, in direct contrast to Paul's admonition in Titus 3, or in 1 Timothy 1. There is not a single word in the verses you quoted where Paul says law breaking is O.K. and not d**mable. In fact, he does agree with what I wrote about wilfull sinners.[/color] Possibly where we're differing is here: I try to keep the law because I love God and I want to live in the way that pleases Him. Differing? This is exactly what I've been saying for years on these boards. It is YOU and others like you that come here and try to say that law breaking is fine as long as you have asked for salvation. You want "Grace" to mean something that was never intended. Look, there is not ONE THING that man can do to accomplish his own salvation EXCEPT to ask God to forgive him. God will. Does that mean that man can return to the ways that caused him to be d**med in the first place? No! as Paul said. We have God's grace and He forgave us. Now we have to be Christians and walk as Jesus walked. That would mean TURNING AWAY FROM SIN. Is breaking any of the commandments sin? YES! That would include the Sabbath THAT GOD GAVE, not another day as men have changed it![/color] You posted elsewhere that God doesn't want us to be afraid of Him, yet you preach fear and condemnation for not keeping your interpretation of God's Law. No, not fear, but there is such a thing as returning the gift of salvation or another way to say it is nullifying salvation by returning to WILFULL sinning ways, as Hebrews tells us.[/color] You seem to be saying that because you (try to) keep God's law more perfectly you are a Christian, but we both see in the Bible that keeping the Law doesn't make us a Christain. Do you see the dichotomy in your teachings? There is no dichotomy in what I say at all. You have the dichotomy in your words. You profess a false sabbath and then say it doesn't matter, because you have grace. God expects man to turn from sin, but if man falls we have Jesus as our intercessor to make ammends for us, but we are to turn from sin and reject it at every temptation. A wilfull return to sinning ways nullifies the free gift from God.
[/color] You and Prot haven't made a convincing case that keeping the Sabath on Sunday is a "sinful lifestyle." I'm sorry, I know you think you have, but you haven't. Blessings, LJ[/quote] Here's where you are dead wrong. it is YOU who refuse to see that God doesn't change and because YOU want to hold onto the errors of your Luthern church in place of God's word, you REFUSE to see the truth. You want to scream "grace" when you have no idea of what is correct when speaking of grace. You really don't know what grace means when it comes to God and man and are relying on the words of men rather than God Himself for truth. You post truthful scriptures, but you really have no idea of what they are saying or you wouldn't be a Luthern.[/color]
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Post by LauraJean on Dec 11, 2003 9:44:42 GMT -5
You post truthful scriptures, but you really have no idea of what they are saying or you wouldn't be a Seventh Day Adventist, so I will leave you (and this discussion) with this thought from Titus: TIT 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11 You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
Oh, and one last thing. It's Luthera[/u]n
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Post by Phoebe on Dec 11, 2003 20:37:41 GMT -5
Lutherans see Holy Baptism and Communion as a work of God, not man. We also participate in them because we are commanded to.
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Post by genesda on Dec 12, 2003 6:16:15 GMT -5
You post truthful scriptures, but you really have no idea of what they are saying or you wouldn't be a Seventh Day Adventist, so I will leave you (and this discussion) with this thought from Titus: TIT 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11 You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.Oh, and one last thing. It's Luther a[/u]n Again, NOTHING Paul wrote in Titus or anywhere else supports the idea that you can still lead a wilfull, sinful lifestyle and still remain a saved person. That is wishful thinking on your part and you enforce these words with the idea that God doesn't care which day of the week you call holy. I'll tell you this much, as a SDA, I've learned to read the scriptures and determine HOW to see the true context of what is written in order to get the proper meaning of what I am reading. If you believe you or your church has the authority to declare the Sunday holy, then you are contrary to God's word and committing wilfull sin. Open your eyes and stop listening to people who don't know what they are talking about.
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Post by genesda on Dec 12, 2003 6:18:36 GMT -5
Lutherans see Holy Baptism and Communion as a work of God, not man. We also participate in them because we are commanded to. Fine, so what's your point? Are you claiming that you are saved because you participate in these rituals?
[/color]
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Post by Phoebe on Dec 12, 2003 23:16:54 GMT -5
We participate in them because they are also the fruit of our faith. We believe that God keeps his promises.
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Post by genesda on Dec 15, 2003 7:16:18 GMT -5
Lutherans see Holy Baptism and Communion as a work of God, not man. We also participate in them because we are commanded to. You were also commanded to keep the sabbath holy too. God said nothing about any other day being holy, in fact, He declared the Sunday to be a WORK day, so how do you say, "because we are commanded to", and then disregard the sabbath command?[/color]
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Post by Pietro on Dec 16, 2003 10:22:02 GMT -5
No, No, No!! Once the "priest" transubstanciates the wafer, it becomes Jesus as the Rcc teaches, fully body soul and Divinity.
However, I do agree that it is in reality only a piece of bread. [/color][/quote] As has been said , the preist is only an instrument through which the Holy Spirit brings about the change. How do you understand transcendence? What does the word mean to you? Catholics do not believe that God and heaven are above the sky somewhere in some material place out there. Rather, they transcend both space and time to be ever present everywhere yet focused in a particular way in the Eucharist. That is what spirit is all about, a transcendent reality. I don't think the ancient Hebrews had this insight in their world view which you have adopted. Trying to explain transcendent realities is then like trying to explain a three dimensional cube to a two dimentional cirlce.
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Post by genesda on Dec 16, 2003 10:44:59 GMT -5
As has been said , the preist is only an instrument through which the Holy Spirit brings about the change. How do you understand transcendence? What does the word mean to you? Catholics do not believe that God and heaven are above the sky somewhere in some material place out there. Rather, they transcend both space and time to be ever present everywhere yet focused in a particular way in the Eucharist. That is what spirit is all about, a transcendent reality. I don't think the ancient Hebrews had this insight in their world view which you have adopted. Trying to explain transcendent realities is then like trying to explain a three dimensional cube to a two dimentional cirlce. Well, if what you say is true, how do you explain Jesus coming in the clouds and His people rising to meet Him there? How do you explain the eye witnesses watching Him ascend? Maybe your science fiction ideas are where the fault lies.
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Post by Pietro on Dec 16, 2003 10:54:53 GMT -5
Well, if what you say is true, how do you explain Jesus coming in the clouds and His people rising to meet Him there? How do you explain the eye witnesses watching Him ascend? Maybe your science fiction ideas are where the fault lies.
What does the word "transcendence" mean to you? How do you understand it? Does it apply to God? Seems your ideas are more science fiction: "Blast off with Spaceship Jesus."
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Post by genesda on Dec 16, 2003 11:09:30 GMT -5
As has been said , the preist is only an instrument through which the Holy Spirit brings about the change. There is no change. It's all in your mind.[/color]
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Post by Pietro on Dec 17, 2003 9:08:11 GMT -5
What does the word "transcendence" mean to you? How do you understand it? Does it apply to God? I am genuinely curious about this , Genesda. It also relates to soul sleep since the soul is a transcendental reality. Please tell me also how you understand "spirit". What is it? Do you believe it is simply some kind of Holy wind as the Greek word pneuma would indicate?
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Post by michaeldark on Dec 20, 2003 0:45:58 GMT -5
I am genuinely curious about this , Genesda. It also relates to soul sleep since the soul is a transcendental reality. Please tell me also how you understand "spirit". What is it? Do you believe it is simply some kind of Holy wind as the Greek word pneuma would indicate? Life never gets any easier here. Oi. You people sit here and say you want Gene to shut up and leave you alone. But yet when you see him,as soon as he voices his opinions,no matter how "hurtful" they may seem(that's unintentional on his part,he's just trying to present what he feels God leads him to be the truth,for the sake of us all...),you just antagonize him. Maybe if you wouldn't give him the fuel for his fire,he wouldn'rt burn you so much. Ever think about guys?
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