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Post by Archangelwolf on Jul 15, 2003 19:59:31 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 2:11-16
"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."
So, what does that mean?
No one can know what anyone else is really thinking except that person alone, and no one can know God's thoughts except God's own Spirit. And God has actually given us His Spirit (not the world's spirit) so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us, like our salvation. When we teach the Gospel, we do not use human reason or intellect. We speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths. But people who aren't Christians can not understand these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means. We who have the Spirit understand these things, but others can not understand us at all. How could they? For, who can know what the Lord is thinking? Who can give Him counsel? But we can understand these things, for we have a direct link-up through the Holy Spirit to the Mind of Christ!
One question really disturbs me about today's Christians. If Christians believe that the Holy Spirit inspired men and women to WRITE scripture, then why is it so hard for Christians to believe that the Holy Spirit is needed to inspire men and women to INTERPRET scripture?
It is kind of like poetry, or music. We can all interpret the same lyrics to a song differently, unless we ask the original author.
The Holy Spirit of God is the author of the Bible, and the Foundation of our spirituality. Without Him, we can only lead ourselves, as well as others, astray.
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Post by deby on Jul 16, 2003 4:25:15 GMT -5
WOW, that was great, thanks.
Went and checked out your site, am now a member, left a little something there for you in battle of the......
Blessings, ysiC Deby
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Post by Maranata on Jul 16, 2003 9:35:16 GMT -5
From archangeldream: One question really disturbs me about today's Christians. If Christians believe that the Holy Spirit inspired men and women to WRITE scripture, then why is it so hard for Christians to believe that the Holy Spirit is needed to inspire men and women to INTERPRET scripture?
I agree with you that the Holy Spirit will help you interpret the scripture and give you a different message to you than to me because maybe you need something different than me! But is the same Holy Spirit!
It is kind of like poetry, or music. We can all interpret the same lyrics to a song differently, unless we ask the original author.
Yes, it may be the same notes but different entonation or the same poem but different enfacis in some words!
The Holy Spirit of God is the author of the Bible, and the Foundation of our spirituality. Without Him, we can only lead ourselves, as well as others, astray.
AMEN!!!
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Post by Cohdra on Jul 17, 2003 2:32:10 GMT -5
I would have to disagree. The Holy Spirit only imparts one truth, because there is only one truth. Believing in more than one truth is called 'Relativism'
Main Entry: rel·a·tiv·ism Pronunciation: 're-l&-ti-"vi-z&m Function: noun Date: 1865 1 a : a theory that knowledge is relative to the limited nature of the mind and the conditions of knowing b : a view that ethical truths depend on the individuals and groups holding them
The Holy Spirit imparts the truth from God. God is constant; We must alter ourselves to fit God's truth; God does not alter his truth to fit us.
God bless
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Post by Cohdra on Jul 17, 2003 2:36:47 GMT -5
I do not believe that everyone is able to interpret scripture. Look at all the different views on these MB's; now, examine how many people may have different interpretations of scripture than you. Now, if the Holy Spirit only imparts one truth, then we have a problem. Either no one is correct, or only one of us is correct; The Holy spirit does not give half-truths. Some of us might be lucky guessers. We might have some of it right, but not all of it. This is what happens when we all interpret for ourselves; pkmtyolm confusion.
God bless
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Post by Archangelwolf on Jul 17, 2003 3:20:58 GMT -5
There are a thousand reasons why there are so many different denominations of churches in the world today. It is because of humanity. Men and women continue to claim that they can interpret scripture. This is their fallacy. God is of a mind of vast knowledge and intelligence. We could not possibly comprehend all that He knows without going insane. Only through His Spirit can we discern pieces of the puzzle for which we must learn our purpose in life. I do believe that each person is bestowed certain gifts. These gifts are given in accordance with what God's will is for our lives. However, some never know what their gifts are because of choices that they make that run contrary to what God's will is for them; and seal their fates. Teaching is obviously a different gift than preaching, or ministering to the sick, and such. So, obviously, someone who teaches will have a different interpretation than one who treats the sick. It is not that they believe in two different Holy Spirits. It is that they have been given insight according to their gifts. We can not interpret scripture without the Holy Spirit. However, the Holy Spirit reveals truths to us according to our divinely-given gifts. In order to know our gifts, we must pray, and live according to God's will every day; so that He can show us. Amen.
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Post by Bondslave on Jul 17, 2003 23:10:39 GMT -5
I do not believe that everyone is able to interpret scripture. Look at all the different views on these MB's; now, examine how many people may have different interpretations of scripture than you. Now, if the Holy Spirit only imparts one truth, then we have a problem. Either no one is correct, or only one of us is correct; The Holy spirit does not give half-truths. Some of us might be lucky guessers. We might have some of it right, but not all of it. This is what happens when we all interpret for ourselves; pkmtyolm confusion. God bless I believe you're mixing up two issues. The first being the gift of teaching, and the second understanding of scripture. Not all are gifted to teach, but all are given the ability to understand scripture. It is not accurate to claim that only one person on this message board is correct. There is more agreement than that! Secondly, archangeldream, as I understand it, is not suggesting multiple interpretations for each scripture to such a degree as you were defining as relativism. You may be familiar with the story about the 3 blind men and the elephant. One blind man was holding onto the trunk and said the object was a hose, the second was touching the elephant's side and said the object was a wall, and the third was holding onto the tail and said the object was a brush. The object was the same, and from their perspective, each blind man was correct in their description. What was lacking was the complete picture that would have become clearer as they each voiced their input. So I believe archangeldream was suggesting that some can have a different perspective of scripture and it can still remain a portion of the whole. If one discount the blind man touching the side as differing from the other 2 then the real shape of the object will never be understood. Paul seems to be pointing to the written scriptures as a source for "OUR" instruction. He doesn't seem to be suggesting a priestly cpkmtyoll to interpret and teach because "common" man isn't qualified to persevere and gain encouragement to hope from the Scriptures. Again, Paul does not seem to be suggesting a priestly cpkmtyoll here either. Paul is saying the "brethren" are full of goodness and filled with "ALL" knowledge AND also able to admonish one another. One could fill this message board with scripture, but it appears clear that Paul did not believe in a priestly cpkmtyoll. Now he did believe in giftings to preach, and teach etc. Blessings, Bondslave
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Post by Archangelwolf on Jul 19, 2003 19:26:56 GMT -5
Very well said, bondslave.
I wish to point out that I have no ill will towards the Catholic Church, although I disagree with their beliefs on interpretting scripture.
The Catholic Cathechism states: "The Pope is infallible in interpretting scripture."
The problem is not with what is said; but with what is not said. Nowhere in the CC does it claim that the Pope needs the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture. It claims simply that the Pope can interpret scripture because of the his priesthood and position within the church. My problem with this is that the Pope is selected by men, and his choosing has a lot more to do with the game of chance than divine will. It is kind of like winning the lottery. Numbers will be drawn whether God is involved or not. Therefore, someone will win. It is just playing the odds.
All men fall short of the grace of God. That includes the Pope. Furthermore, the Pope, like ourselves, needs the divine guidance of the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture. No ifs, ands, or buts.
Later,
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Post by LucasTheAngel on Jul 19, 2003 20:49:25 GMT -5
What worries me is that it often seems that all it takes to get someone to agree with your personal interpretation of scripture is a podium. I think a lot of false teachings happen when someone decides they are a teacher, and they aren't even skilled at interpreting scripture, all they have is what they have been xyhgt-fed by a series of bad teachers before them.
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Post by Archangelwolf on Jul 21, 2003 4:15:54 GMT -5
Even more so, the biggest problem in religion in general is that people are not taught to critically think. This is especially true in the southern and central United States. Referred to as the Bible Belt, these people are xyhgtfed different interpretations of scripture to uphold all sorts of controversial issues; all in the name of religion.
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logos
Full Member
Posts: 191
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Post by logos on Jul 21, 2003 10:44:28 GMT -5
archangeldream wrote:
2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ..."
874 Christ is himself the source of ministry in the Church. He instituted the Church. He gave her authority and mission, orientation and goal:
In order to shepherd the People of God and to increase its numbers without cease, Christ the Lord set up in his Church a variety of offices which aim at the good of the whole body. The holders of office, who are invested with a sacred power, are, in fact, dedicated to promoting the interests of their brethren, so that all who belong to the People of God . . . may attain to salvation.389
91 All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them53 and guides them into all truth.54
92 "The whole body of the faithful . . . cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of faith (sensus fidei) on the part of the whole people, when, 'from the bishops to the last of the faithful,' they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals."55
The Catechism states that the Authority of the Pope is given by Christ (All authority from the Father is given to the Son) and Christ is the source of that authority to interpret as well as to instruct. Also, it can be seen that this authority is not restricted to just the Pope and Bishops, it is in a special way given to all the faithful.
Now, let us take John Chapter 6 as an example of interpretation. What if I believe Jesus it literally telling us to eat and drink his body and blood and you believe that Jesus was speaking metaphorically. Those two views are mutually contradictory. How would we know which person is right? We can't. Neither interpretation is a stupid one, they both seem to have some merit. We cannot know for sure. The only way for you to know would be to say that I am not interpreting with the Spirit, and then basically that means that I don't have the Spirit, so that means that I don't know Christ, therefore I am condemned.
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Post by Pietro on Jul 21, 2003 11:48:04 GMT -5
The only way for you to know would be to say that I am not interpreting with the Spirit, and then basically that means that I don't have the Spirit, so that means that I don't know Christ, therefore I am condemned. That sounds a little too assumptive to me, Logos. Can two people who both know Christ disagree on a scripture pkmtyolpage. I think so. One may be more open to the Spirit, more docile and submissive to its teachings. This is where I believe Sola Scriptura betrays the individual ego asserting itself over against the Holy Spirit of Christ speaking through the teaching community of the church He empowered.
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logos
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Posts: 191
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Post by logos on Jul 21, 2003 13:25:13 GMT -5
That sounds a little too assumptive to me, Logos. Can two people who both know Christ disagree on a scripture pkmtyolpage. I think so. One may be more open to the Spirit, more docile and submissive to its teachings. This is where I believe Sola Scriptura betrays the individual ego asserting itself over against the Holy Spirit of Christ speaking through the teaching community of the church He empowered. Pietro- I agree with you completely. I was making that statement according the the logic that must be followed if you subscribe to Sola Scriptura. Since I know that most believers don't agree with that statement, then how do they hold to personal interpretation without condemning all others with different interpretations? Pax Christi-
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Post by Ben johnson on Jul 21, 2003 14:12:07 GMT -5
It offen seems to me that INTERPRETING is the wrong word. Do we interpret texts written in other languages? No; we TRANSLATE them. It is so often usesful to simply read the GREEK to understand the intent of the writer. And the Bible must be taken as a whole; I can make a point with one or two pkmtyolpages, unless THAT POINT contradicts 5 other pkmtyolpages.And yet, we DO have many denominations. This is the fuel for a DEBATE forum. For instance, I often post on the subject of "OSAS" --- it might appear from pkmtyolpages like Rom9 or Eph1 or parts of Rom8 that SOME are PREDESTINED to salvation and the REST are PREDESTINED to Hell. But I can effectively show that God condemns no one, rather opens the door to ANY and EVERY person. The original text was written by ORDINARY MEN, intended to be understood by ordinary men and women. They didn't mean it to be tough and complicated... But someone on the LBMB once said, "the existence of denominations keeps each honest". How are we to be polished if no one challenges our beliefs? Is any one of us perfect? No. If we can come to agreement on the FOUNDATIONAL things, IE that Jesus is Lord, and salvation is by His love (and not our efforts), that we are to be Spirit-filled and regenerated, then the debates are less important. We will not come to agreement on all things NOW; when the PERFECT comes, yes (1Cor13). But for now let's work on love and fellowship and joining the great harvest!We serve the same God. Rather than waste energy fighting amonst ourselves, let's use that energy to spread the Gospel...
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logos
Full Member
Posts: 191
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Post by logos on Jul 22, 2003 11:30:48 GMT -5
Ben-
I agree that the debates are less important, and it is more important that we agree on some things. We should all focus most of our energy on Loving others. Thanks for reminding us.
However, it is still important that there are differences, because they pervert the pure Church of God, and provided that the differences are argued in a charitable fashion, they should be argued.
Pax Christi- logos
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