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Post by Maranata on Jul 24, 2003 9:09:42 GMT -5
I too think that we might be getting somewhere (much in the manner that a spiral staircase moves you upward, but in the process you get dizzy) Yes I am geting dizzy. I see that you did not give me your opinion on my other post. Oh well! Yes!!! No, because then it will be the institution the one that gets saved and not the individual. If you remember in Pentecostal the Holy Spirit came down individualy to each one of the ones that where present and not to an institution. C'mon logos, do not do this to me. It does matter if the Priest is wrong or not! You are hearing the message from them, not from the Pope. But the message have to come from the Bible and you have an obligation as Christian to know what the things that are been saying come from the Bible. As a matter of fact if the person that is talking to me is saying something that I have not read and is contrary to what it says in the Bible and against the basic fundamentals I will not lissent to it. For me the denomination or the institution are not going to save me but my believe and faith in Jesus Christ. I do not owe my legeance to the church but to GOD following Jesus Christ. I do not owe my salvation to my priest, minister, Pope or any body else but GOD! And I do believe that what the Holy Spirit tells me in my heart will be what GOD wants me to do if is based in what the Bible tells me to do. I will know that does not come from GOD if goes agaist what the Bible say. For example I know is wrong to kill, steel want something that does not belong to me, lust for something or someone. I do not need the church to tell me that this things are right or wrong. If I never go to church any church but believe in GOD and follow Him with all my heart and follow the scriptures, that will make me as saved as any one that go to church. Just look at the ones that follow Jesus. The only schoolar from the bunch was Judas and he betray Jesus. The rest where fisherman and simple people. Does that tells you something or not? The other schoolar after Judas was Paul (Saul). The Bible was writen as simple as posible so everyone be able to read and understand it. We make it more complicated than what really is. Look at the prophets most of them where simple people. The schoolars where mostly full of themselfs as the Pharisies. GOD Bless,
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logos
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Post by logos on Jul 24, 2003 10:52:35 GMT -5
Ok in the same tone give me your opinion (not your interpretation) on Romans 2... The Jews and the Law
17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth-- 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."[2] 25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the[3] written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. 28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. I will takle at your answer tomorrow because I got to go home and to be family taxi! LOL ;D GOD Bless, My opinion...I would say that Paul is talking about true following of the Law. Intentions are important. Actions must have good intentions or else they are empty. I'm not sure if that's what you wanted? I fail to see why this would happen. You can't save an institution. Why would the interpreter be the one who is saved? I don't get it? Do what to you? I am simply telling you Church teaching. The Catholic Church does not teach that Priests are infallible. Maranata- Please use scriptures to back up your points. I want clear scriptures that can't be twisted. It is pointless for us to be talking about our opinions. If you would please give me a scripture to show that each person on their own can and should interpret the scriptures from themselves. Make sure that it is one that is not a matter of interpretation. We were making some headway, but now we're just being caught up in words. Let's stick to the Book. Thanks. logos
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Post by Maranata on Jul 24, 2003 14:33:56 GMT -5
legos- Well here is some scripture just from Romans that speak of what I am talking about! Romans 8 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Romans 11 33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 34"Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" 35"Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" 36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever!
Romans 12 3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
Romans 15 14I myself am convinced, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, complete in knowledge and competent to instruct one another. 15I have written you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me 16to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
But at not time say that some will be right or wrong, or that the teachers will teach the wrong things. At the contrary it say that the Spirit of GOD will show us what to know and what to say according to His grace to each of us.
GOD Bless,
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Post by Maranata on Jul 24, 2003 14:37:06 GMT -5
legos- Well here is some scripture just from Romans that speak of what I am talking about! Romans 8 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Romans 11 33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 34"Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" 35"Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" 36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever!
Romans 12 3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
Romans 15 14I myself am convinced, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, complete in knowledge and competent to instruct one another. 15I have written you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me 16to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
But at not time say that some will be right or wrong, or that the teachers will teach the wrong things. At the contrary it say that the Spirit of GOD will show us what to know and what to say according to His grace to each of us.
GOD Bless,
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Post by Maranata on Jul 24, 2003 14:42:25 GMT -5
Sorry it post twice!
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logos
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Post by logos on Jul 24, 2003 16:20:37 GMT -5
Maranata- Before I start, I hope I haven't been too mean in our discussion. If I have been, I apologize. I think you know how it goes. legos- Well here is some scripture just from Romans that speak of what I am talking about! Romans 8 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Romans 11 33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 34"Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" 35"Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" 36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever!Romans 12 3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully. Romans 15 14I myself am convinced, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, complete in knowledge and competent to instruct one another. 15I have written you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me 16to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. But at not time say that some will be right or wrong, or that the teachers will teach the wrong things. At the contrary it say that the Spirit of GOD will show us what to know and what to say according to His grace to each of us. GOD Bless, Thanks Maranata- Romans 8- The Spirit does help us in discernment for what we should pray for. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. This cannot mean that the Spirit PERFECTLY intercedes for us because if it did, we would be in perfect accordance with God's will, and we are all sinners so none of us are in Perfect accordance with his will. This verse rather is showing that the Spirit does help us, like when you read a pkmtyolpage and it perfectly applies to your current problem. Or the Spirit will coax us into helping someone. But this verse doesn't imply that we all have the right to personally interpret God's Word. Aside: I think I know your position, but I just realized I might be confused about something. Could you clarify for me: You are saying that through personal interpretation, we are all given the ability to interpret correctly right? Or is it that we all have a right to interpret but sometimes we'll be wrong?
Romans 11 and 12- I don't see how this supports personal interpretation. Romans 15- 14 I myself am convinced, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, complete in knowledge and competent to instruct one another. You are interpreting the second part to mean that we are all infallible when reading with the Spirit and testing the text? Then would you also read the first half "you yourselves are full of goodness" as saying that we are all perfect people, sinless? I need the centered "aside" answered before I can continue, because I might not perfectly understand your position, thanks. Peace of Christ- logos
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Post by Maranata on Jul 24, 2003 17:07:24 GMT -5
Maranata- Before I start, I hope I haven't been too mean in our discussion. If I have been, I apologize. I think you know how it goes. logos- Thank you again for your non necesary apology. This is a debate thread and I see that we both are very setle with our positions. But I asure you that you have not been mean at all. (LOL!! at least we are not calling each other names or else ) But thank you for your concern. You forgot to place the rest of verse 28 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. This part is important because who is the one that is going to give you the understanding of what you need but GOD! So the interpretation will not be wrong but it may be just what you are capable to understand at that time and as we grow in/with Him you may read again and a deeper revelation will be revealed to you. We all have the right and the obligation to interpret scripture and will be revel to us according to our faith that was given by GOD!( 5 talents for one, 3 and 1 to others.) If it comes from GOD why should be incorrect? Is like when you taste a recepy and can't taste some of the ingredients. It is not wrong but not compleate. Remember that GOD will give to you according to your capacity and never will be wrong! Here we are limiting His grace to us! Romans 11 for me is telling me that no one knows GOD mind. That will be like for you to try to interpret my mind with out me telling you what I want or need. Romans 12 will still talk about the body of Christ and our co-relation with each other and that we all have our position and do not interfeare with it. But the important part was bolded... Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. Again no one is better than the other but is in accordance to the measure of the faith and growth in the faith that GOD has given us. Who will be the one that mesure? GOD! Not me or you or any body else. No! Because there is only ONE that is perfect and sinless. Not even the Pope is sinless. But it tells us that because we have the Holy Spirit we are complete to instruct (interpret) one another. I hope that with my answer you can see where I come from even if you do not agree with it. GOD Bless, PS are you a brother or a sister?
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Post by Archangelwolf on Jul 25, 2003 4:20:54 GMT -5
TEXT1 Corinthians 2:11-16
"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."
So, what does that mean?
No one can know what anyone else is really thinking except that person alone, and no one can know God's thoughts except God's own Spirit. And God has actually given us His Spirit (not the world's spirit) so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us, like our salvation. When we teach the Gospel, we do not use human reason or intellect. We speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths. But people who aren't Christians can not understand these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means. We who have the Spirit understand these things, but others can not understand us at all. How could they? For, who can know what the Lord is thinking? Who can give Him counsel? But we can understand these things, for we have a direct link-up through the Holy Spirit to the Mind of Christ!
These verses are the most obvious to me about this subject. If we are "directly linked" to the mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit, then I see no room for error. Maranata has a very good point in stating that we interpret according to our capacity at that stage in our spiritual growth. As we grow in the Lord, we become more aware of certain interpretations that we did not realize before.
The Catholic Church is similar to the old issue of Elitist Society. They believe that the average intellect can not, and will not, be led to Christ by any other means except by the leadership of clergy. The world must be led by the elite in the church. The pkmtyolmes must be controlled. This also makes the RCC very similar to other relgious doctrines that center on the goal of suppression and power. Religion is a part of billions of people's lives. The Roman Catholic Church, like Islam, and Hinduism, is a very well-known institution. So, people will listen to what it says; sometimes without critically thinking. This allows a method of power to control the pkmtyolmes; and force them to conform to certain ways of life at their expense; to the benefit to those who control the institution.
I would compare the Roman Catholic Church in the obvious, to the Illuminati of the elusive.
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Post by Maranata on Jul 25, 2003 9:39:27 GMT -5
Thank you Archangeldream for this thread and your post.
According to some priest from the RCC (even if logos state that the church does not assure that the priest are infallible) when they anoint at the Baptisim they recive the Holy Spirit even if they are babies, children or adults and become Prophets, Priest and Pastors to show the rest of the world about Christ. Here the RCC is stateting that they have the obligation to learn about GOD and Christ and to show to others the Gospel. Why? Because at Baptisim they have recived the Holy Spirit and GOD is in control of their life and satan does no longer have any control over them. This is RCC teaching. So for that moment on they should be able to read and interpreted the Bible according to their ability. Now maybe in the middle ages because the mayority of the population was iliterate was the previlage of the church to instruct the people and guide them because the education was limited to the clerigy and the high cpkmtyolles. At this time education is available to the bast mayority of the people and the Bible has been translated to almost all the languages in the world. Reducing the need for elitiest. Now there is still the need for some one with more knowledge to instruct others about the Bible and scripture to get them starting to understand the basics and acelerate the learning of more indeepth knowledge of the Bible. But we also have to realize that the Bible was not writen as a Law test book with special lingo. But the Bible was writen for common folk in mind to understand. The parables that Jesus utilize where simple common folk analogies so the farmer, fisherman, common house wife as well as the teachers of the Law could understand the message. Maybe what we need to learn will be the customs from the time to be able to understand some things that we do not do anymore.
For example the parable of the good Samaritan. Whe need to understand that Jews and Samarians deed not like each other. But there was a the rule of the dessert that if you stop to help other person in need (no matter who), you where responsible of that person until it was ready to move on. The Samaritan fulfill that rule but the other travelers did not, looking away and not facing the one that needed help. And one of them was a Raby that supposedly new the rules.
But this a common rull at that time. So yes we all can interpret the Bible but we also need to have study other factor beside just the scripture. But the Holy Spirit will guide us to get that inside feeleing to be able to understand.
GOD Bless,
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logos
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Posts: 191
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Post by logos on Jul 25, 2003 15:35:56 GMT -5
You forgot to place the rest of verse 28 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. This part is important because who is the one that is going to give you the understanding of what you need but GOD! So the interpretation will not be wrong but it may be just what you are capable to understand at that time and as we grow in/with Him you may read again and a deeper revelation will be revealed to you. I don't see how this teaching can be reconciled with the teaching that the Spirit will lead us to ALL truth? It seems that you are saying (I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong ) that we receive the truth in the degree that we are able to understand it? Out of curiosity, would you say that most 'Bible Believing" Christians agree with your position? Could you give me an example of a teaching that God would partially reveal to someone, and then fully reveal at a later time? This belief that some truths are 'partially' revealed isn't really stated clearly anywhere in Scripture is it? The verse you quoted does not clearly state that, it basically says that God is in charge and He does what He thinks right. How can you infer that this means that some teachings aren't given in full? I need it stated clearly, so I don't have misconceptions, but you are saying that a believer will NOT be lead into error when personally interpreting the Bible right? In essence, doesn't that make everyone their own Pope. We all have the right and the obligation to interpret scripture and will be revel to us according to our faith that was given by GOD!( 5 talents for one, 3 and 1 to others.) If it comes from GOD why should be incorrect? Is like when you taste a recepy and can't taste some of the ingredients. It is not wrong but not compleate. Remember that GOD will give to you according to your capacity and never will be wrong! Here we are limiting His grace to us! I still see examples where it is more than just 'degrees' of understanding. I keep bringing it back to examples where people believe to "mutually exclusive" things, meaning, if one is right, the other HAS TO BE wrong. How can your idea of personal interpretation answer that question. If I say "scripture plus tradition" and you say "scripture and no Tradition" then how can one of us have simply a "lesser understanding"? It seems, according to your belief, that one of us must not be a believer, and therefore is condemned to Hell. No! Because there is only ONE that is perfect and sinless. Not even the Pope is sinless. But it tells us that because we have the Holy Spirit we are complete to instruct (interpret) one another. PS are you a brother or a sister? The Pope is not sinless. The Catholic Church makes a huge distinction between sinlessness (impeccability) and complete accuracy in teaching (infallibility). I'm a brother Also, Ithink you misunderstood my point. I have a way of debating where I draw conclusions using the other persons logic. They are conclusions that I am sure the other person does not believe, yet according to Logic, should believe. Therefore that other person (you would then have to either abandon the conclusion, or the premise. You say that we are complete in knowledge, yet you don't assume that the pkmtyolpage is saying we are full of goodness. Do you see? You are making the first one an absolute statement, saying that we are so complete in knowledge (through the Spirit) that we won't be led wrong, but then you say that we are imperfect. You can't make the first half of the verse an absolute statement while reducing the second one to a non-absolute statement. Peace- logos
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Post by Maranata on Jul 25, 2003 17:12:03 GMT -5
I don't see how this teaching can be reconciled with the teaching that the Spirit will lead us to ALL truth? It seems that you are saying (I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong ) that we receive the truth in the degree that we are able to understand it? Out of curiosity, would you say that most 'Bible Believing" Christians agree with your position? Could you give me an example of a teaching that God would partially reveal to someone, and then fully reveal at a later time? This belief that some truths are 'partially' revealed isn't really stated clearly anywhere in Scripture is it? The verse you quoted does not clearly state that, it basically says that God is in charge and He does what He thinks right. How can you infer that this means that some teachings aren't given in full? logos my brother, we still going in circles. But is OK is great! I do not want to move from one scripture to an other because it become confucing. You post Eph 4 as part of the backing for you and I will go back to it. Ephesians 4 Unity in the Body of Christ 1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[1] says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men."[2] 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[3] ? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. 14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. Look from 11 to 15 and it tells you that we move from infants into grown up "Christians". You are not going to give the same information to a 5 year old as you give to a 30 year old. But both have the Holy Spirit in them. So to a person that can not grasp compleatly the scripture the Holy Spirit will reveal just what is necesary to that person to continue. No! You have two different things mixedup. Each of us is a son of GOD and partaker of the inheratance from GOD. No one is biger or lower than the other. The difference is the calling and the gift that we have and what we do with it! I am sure the Pope is a great man and have a function in this world as well as Billy Graham. But both have a different function and gift. Why we most condemned others to hell? That is not our job but GODs. We all are going to be present and in our nees infront of Him. 1st of all logic and faith are two things that sometimes will not mach. If you use logic many things in ANY religion will not work because they are not logicle and are limited to our capacity. 2nd The quote is from scripture and the Spirit will not led you wrong! But you also have the human part that will always want you to do the worldly things. 3rd You have all the right and are using it right now to interpret the scripture that we are talking about. The same way as I am doing. I can (and will) not say that you are wrong. That is what the spirit is asking you to do. At the same time I will not make the asumption that you are not saved because our differencess on opinions or denominations or tradition. That is between you and GOD and between me and GOD. Also read the scripture that archangeldream post that I am reposting here... 1 Corinthians 2:11-16 "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." GOD Bless you brother!
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Post by Kee on Jul 25, 2003 17:19:31 GMT -5
We make it more complicated than what really is. Look at the prophets most of them where simple people. The schoolars where mostly full of themselfs as the Pharisies. You can say that again! ;D
Just dropping in to say "Hi" TGIF Maranata!
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Post by Maranata on Jul 25, 2003 22:36:24 GMT -5
You can say that again! ;D
Just dropping in to say "Hi" TGIF Maranata! Just because you ask here it is... We make it more complicated than what really is. Look at the prophets most of them where simple people. The schoolars where mostly full of themselfs as the Pharisies. Hi Kee, nice for droping in! ;D
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Post by Maranata on Jul 28, 2003 9:06:07 GMT -5
BUMP for logos
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logos
Full Member
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Post by logos on Jul 28, 2003 12:03:00 GMT -5
Thanks for the bump. I don't go online on weekends ;D logos my brother, we still going in circles. But is OK is great! I do not want to move from one scripture to an other because it become confucing. You post Eph 4 as part of the backing for you and I will go back to it. Ephesians 4 Unity in the Body of Christ 1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[1] says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men."[2] 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[3] ? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. 14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. Look from 11 to 15 and it tells you that we move from infants into grown up "Christians". You are not going to give the same information to a 5 year old as you give to a 30 year old. But both have the Holy Spirit in them. So to a person that can not grasp compleatly the scripture the Holy Spirit will reveal just what is necesary to that person to continue. I agree that the Holy Spirit does not reveal everything to everyone, and He reveals things in different degrees to each. Okay. We agree on that. No! You have two different things mixedup. Each of us is a son of GOD and partaker of the inheratance from GOD. No one is biger or lower than the other. The difference is the calling and the gift that we have and what we do with it! I am sure the Pope is a great man and have a function in this world as well as Billy Graham. But both have a different function and gift. Okay, I won't use the Pope analogy. BTW I agree that both the Pope and Billy Graham have functions for serving God. Let me rephrase. Are you saying a believer will not be led into error when interpreting the Bible if they pray and do it being open to the Guidance of the Spirit? Why we most condemned others to hell? That is not our job but GODs. We all are going to be present and in our nees infront of Him. I am not saying that you should. My point was what happens if you and I (two believers) hold two contradictory views. Please give me all of the logical conclusions (i.e. we're both right, one of us is wrong, one of us must not be Christian...etc.) 1st of all logic and faith are two things that sometimes will not mach. If you use logic many things in ANY religion will not work because they are not logicle and are limited to our capacity. 2nd The quote is from scripture and the Spirit will not led you wrong! But you also have the human part that will always want you to do the worldly things. 3rd You have all the right and are using it right now to interpret the scripture that we are talking about. The same way as I am doing. I can (and will) not say that you are wrong. That is what the spirit is asking you to do. At the same time I will not make the asumption that you are not saved because our differencess on opinions or denominations or tradition. That is between you and GOD and between me and GOD. 1Truth cannot contradict Truth. Logic and Faith will match always. That doesn't mean that we will be able to understand or define everything that we know through faith, but our reason is from God, and it would be a cruel joke if he didn't expect us to use it. 2 How do the Spirit part and the human part interact? How much can our human part affect our interpretation? 3 I think you should say that I am wrong if that's what you believe. It's not mean, it's speaking the Truth. Also read the scripture that archangeldream post that I am reposting here... 1 Corinthians 2:11-16 "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." GOD Bless you brother! That is a great quote. I agree that God is the one who reveals truth to us. Only God can reveal this Truth, and this is because God is truth. But I also believe that the Church (1 Tim 3:15) is a way that God has chosen to dispense His truth. You can hear God's truth from other sources. If a friend tells you something about the teachings of Christ you didn't know, and it jives with the Bible, that is God's Truth, and God has let them know it, and let you know it. So having an institution that God has established to dispense His truth is okay. That idea does not contradict this verse. The Bible is one way that he dispenses his truth. What do you think about 1 Pet 3:16? Who are those people today? Peace of Christ- logos
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