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Post by Maranata on Jul 22, 2003 12:03:23 GMT -5
It offen seems to me that INTERPRETING is the wrong word. Do we interpret texts written in other languages? No; we TRANSLATE them. It is so often usesful to simply read the GREEK to understand the intent of the writer. And the Bible must be taken as a whole; I can make a point with one or two pkmtyolpages, unless THAT POINT contradicts 5 other pkmtyolpages.And yet, we DO have many denominations. This is the fuel for a DEBATE forum. For instance, I often post on the subject of "OSAS" --- it might appear from pkmtyolpages like Rom9 or Eph1 or parts of Rom8 that SOME are PREDESTINED to salvation and the REST are PREDESTINED to Hell. But I can effectively show that God condemns no one, rather opens the door to ANY and EVERY person. The original text was written by ORDINARY MEN, intended to be understood by ordinary men and women. They didn't mean it to be tough and complicated... But someone on the LBMB once said, "the existence of denominations keeps each honest". How are we to be polished if no one challenges our beliefs? Is any one of us perfect? No. If we can come to agreement on the FOUNDATIONAL things, IE that Jesus is Lord, and salvation is by His love (and not our efforts), that we are to be Spirit-filled and regenerated, then the debates are less important. We will not come to agreement on all things NOW; when the PERFECT comes, yes (1Cor13). But for now let's work on love and fellowship and joining the great harvest!We serve the same God. Rather than waste energy fighting amonst ourselves, let's use that energy to spread the Gospel...  My sentiments exactly! Have concider also that because the BODY of Christ is build by different parts and each have a different pourpose that is aslo that the different denominations exist? The head is all the same GOD and Jeus Christ. But the function of the liver is not the same as the stomac or the lungs, or the legs. But they all belong to the same body! Each one of the components may think that their job is more important than the other parts. When actually they all needed for the body to work and survive! |
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logos
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Post by logos on Jul 22, 2003 13:07:44 GMT -5
My sentiments exactly! Have concider also that because the BODY of Christ is build by different parts and each have a different pourpose that is aslo that the different denominations exist? The head is all the same GOD and Jeus Christ. But the function of the liver is not the same as the stomac or the lungs, or the legs. But they all belong to the same body! Each one of the components may think that their job is more important than the other parts. When actually they all needed for the body to work and survive! Unfortunately I must disagree. This analogy does not work here. Different denominations would be more like having the liver tell the spleen, "You are not part of the body" or having the medulla oblongata tell the heart "don't pump that way." The different denominations are more the divisions that Christ admonishes us against (1 Cor 1:10) rather than differences in our missions. There should only be one denomination, with one set of doctrines, and one visible Church institution, Christ makes that extremely clear that we should be one [Jn 10:16 Eph 4:3-6 Rom 16:17 Phil 2:2 Rom 15:5 Jn 17:17-23...] |
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Post by Maranata on Jul 22, 2003 14:02:10 GMT -5
John10:16
16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
The bold part is interesting to see that there are sheep that are not from the same pen. This could be interpreted as if referring to Jews and Gentiles and as well as people from different denomination that have the same shepherd, this one been Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 4
Unity in the Body of Christ
1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[1] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."[2] 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[3] ? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
The first bold part is what you where referring and yes I agree with you. We have to make an effort to keep the unity. But he knows that it will be difficult to do it. Besides #7 is then saying that “But to each one of us grace has given as Christ apportioned it.” So I gather that a portion of the grace was given to each of us. And then it follows that for that reason “…some will be apostles, some to be prophets, some evangelists and some other pastors and teachers…etc. until we all reach unity in the faith…” So there are different parts of the body but only one head. When we accomplish this we will be mature enough and will not let the cunning and craftiness of men (or devil) deceit us!
He also give us instructions that even in different of opinion we suppose to act in love with each other, because the love of Christ is the one that will keep us together.
Besides what I post was in the form of a question and not an asseveration!
But anyway thank you for your observation!
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logos
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Post by logos on Jul 22, 2003 16:34:09 GMT -5
emphasis mineMaranata-I apologize if my response seemed harsh.  I get all pumped up when I enter the debate board. Since we all have different gifts and roles, then why is it that everyone has the right to interpret for themselves? Pax Christi- logos
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Post by Maranata on Jul 23, 2003 8:34:47 GMT -5
emphasis mineMaranata-I apologize if my response seemed harsh. I get all pumped up when I enter the debate board. Since we all have different gifts and roles, then why is it that everyone has the right to interpret for themselves? Pax Christi- logos No need to apologize. For the same reason that everyone has the right of receiving the Holy Spirit and when we do this we recieve the instructions directed at us through the WORD. The same way that we all have a different carrer in the world and understand differently as our level of education, life and way that we growup. The Lord will give us what we need and not what we want. I use the example of the construction of a building with the same blue print that is the Bible. Some of us are carpenters, others are plumers and others are electricians. We all read the same blue print but we only see the part of the blue print that we need and we all interpret that blue print for the job we have to do. Is the same blue print for all but the interpretation will be according to or especific duty. At the end the building comes together with the help of all the ones that are involve in it. That is the same as the body of Christ. You have foremans for each specialty and does are our pastors and preachers or priest. But the arquitect and engineer are only one GOD and Jesus Christ. Each of the especialties belong to a different union but at the end each one have the same goal. To finish the building! GOD Bless, |
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logos
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Post by logos on Jul 23, 2003 11:12:58 GMT -5
Maranata-You said that everyone has a right to interpret the scriptures for the same reason that everyone has the right of receiving the Holy Spirit and when we do this we recieve the instructions directed at us through the WORD.
Could you give me some verses that say that we all have a right to interpret the scriptures?
1 Pet 3:16 says that the ignorant and unstable can distort the scriptures to their own destruction. So it seems that some of us are unfit to interpret.
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Post by Maranata on Jul 23, 2003 11:48:13 GMT -5
Maranata-You said that everyone has a right to interpret the scriptures for the same reason that everyone has the right of receiving the Holy Spirit and when we do this we recieve the instructions directed at us through the WORD. Could you give me some verses that say that we all have a right to interpret the scriptures? 1 Pet 3:16 says that the ignorant and unstable can distort the scriptures to their own destruction. So it seems that some of us are unfit to interpret. Ok sure, lets take for example one of the scripture that we been working on that is Eph.... 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.The first part that is bold I see it as the one that tells us that we need first instruction as when you go to school and when you finish you will know as much as the instructors and teachers that help you there. When you finish to get your instruction you will get your degree and will be able to see the things that your teachers seen. But even if we all have the oportunity to learn it is also the personal growth of the individual and the gift from GOD that aloud you to see the things He teaches each of us. Then in the second bold part it states that all the things have to come "From Him". Then look at some of the parables and you will see that GOD will give each of us as we deserve. For example the parable of the talents. Why the master give one 5, and 3 and 1 talents to different people? They all recived talents that is the WORD of GOD but did not give equal to all because the capacity was not the same. But they all got talents. They all got the word and the oportunity to use it as they new fit. They all interpreted as they could according to thier own capacity. At the end we all are going to be ONE body and praice to ONE head! The rest of the message is that we need how to interpret the Scripture to be able to decide what is from GOD and what is from men! "13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Not just some or maybe some will reach but ALL! How are we going to do this if only some will be able to interprete? Maybe at the beggining of each one of our Christian life but to grow we need to learn and to learn we need to undertand, and to understand we need to interpret it by ourself! GOD Bless, |
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logos
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Post by logos on Jul 23, 2003 12:39:32 GMT -5
I would read the first bold part as a goal that we have to move towards, and the perfect Church (which will happen in Heaven).
We can still reach that if some are deemed the interpreters. Then everyone else will respect their authority and listen to them. But once again, you see how easy it was for you and I to come up with two different interpretations? Both of ours have some validity.
I understand that we are all reading the scriptures with our own abilities and we will get different things out of it, but I am concerned with the instances where two mutually exclusive doctrinal truths occur from the same pkmtyolpage. One person is wrong. How do we know which one is right? You can't say "We look at other scriptures" because how do we know that that pkmtyolpage has been interpreted correctly? This would continue in a constant circle because every pkmtyolpage is based upon some interpretation. Does this make sense? I hope we are both arguing the same points.
Peace of Christ-
logos
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Post by Maranata on Jul 23, 2003 13:57:25 GMT -5
I would read the first bold part as a goal that we have to move towards, and the perfect Church (which will happen in Heaven). Why until we get to Heaven and not start here on earth? Yes, both have some validity. The respect should not be lost from the teacher or interpreter if we consider what my other example of the building that from each especiality you have foremans (teachers, pastors, prophets, etc) because they will teach the aprentices (babies in Christ) and then they will have the same training and avility to become techers themself, when they mature. Yes, I think we both are in the same page here. And I see your point. OK, we have in this board different people that does not only belong to different denominations but also have a different view of how to give the WORD of GOD. Some are (and with no disrespect to any) warriors that preach the hell and fire doctrine and others the love and forgiveness doctrine. Both sides read the Bible, both read the same scripture, both love and praice the same GOD and savior Jesus Christ. Both believe in salvation by grace of GOD, forgiveness of sins by the blood of Christ and one single baptism in the Holy Spirit. This are the basis and fundacion of our believes. Besides that what is there? The OT, the 10 commandments, santification, OSAS or NOSAS, pre/mid/post tribulation, etc. The basics are the same. Which is right and which is wrong? None and both! Is the same book and the same words for all, but the individual is not the same for many variables and convictions. If we both witness the same car accident and when they ask our statement we may say that the accident occure in different ways. The fact is, that the accident hapened but the witnessing is different. Are you right or I am right? We both are! But we will give different acounts of the same for individual reasons. GOD Bless, |
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logos
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Post by logos on Jul 23, 2003 15:35:42 GMT -5
I might not have understood your last post where you said: Is the same book and the same words for all, but the individual is not the same for many variables and convictions. If we both witness the same car accident and when they ask our statement we may say that the accident occure in different ways. The fact is, that the accident hapened but the witnessing is different. Are you right or I am right? We both are! But we will give different acounts of the same for individual reasons. I am talking about mutually exclusive ideas. Like I say it was a Red Truck and you say it was a green car. One of us is wrong!!
You agreed that two arguments can have some validity. So, how do we know which one is right? There is a right answer. Who has the authority?
This is where sola scriptura and provate interpretation fall apart. God would not allow his Word to be torn apart by many differing views. He would not want each new view to take and form a denomination. His Word is Truth and there is only ONE Truth. Sometimes believers interpret incorrectly. God would have some sort of protection for His Word. Some ultimate Authority. (It can't be the Holy Spirit in each person, because as we have seen, that is not the case, because people come to cotradictory conclusions.) Who has the Authority?
Peace-
logos
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Post by Maranata on Jul 23, 2003 16:18:44 GMT -5
I might not have understood your last post where you said: Is the same book and the same words for all, but the individual is not the same for many variables and convictions. If we both witness the same car accident and when they ask our statement we may say that the accident occure in different ways. The fact is, that the accident hapened but the witnessing is different. Are you right or I am right? We both are! But we will give different acounts of the same for individual reasons. I am talking about mutually exclusive ideas. Like I say it was a Red Truck and you say it was a green car. One of us is wrong!! This start geting confusing but I think we are geting some where. That is the 64,000 Dlls question. If many can not agree in that, it could be imposible for me to answer.For us Christians the only authoroty should be GOD and Christ! In your opinion who does have the authority? If even in the same denomination some things are not accepted or from one minister, priest, pastor to an other there are differencess. I can give you my opinion and you can give me your opinion and we will still be in the same boat! GOD Bless, |
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logos
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Post by logos on Jul 23, 2003 16:43:08 GMT -5
I too think that we might be getting somewhere (much in the manner that a spiral staircase moves you upward, but in the process you get dizzy)
Yes. But it depends HOW God reveals the truth to us. Is it that the Holy Spirit guides everyone individually to the right interpretation? Or is it that the Holy Spirit Promised to guide ONE institution as interpreter? Well, it seems that we've discarded the first option because we know that some people see red trucks while others see green cars. So it has to be the second one.
So, what is that authoritative foundation for teaching us the Truth about the scriptures? 1 Tim 3:15 "The Church which is the Pillar and foundation of Truth." And That authority was given to Peter in Matt 16:16-19 where Christ gave him the Power to bind and loose. It doesn't matter that a Priest here, or a Bishop there teaches something wrong. They are not guaranteed to teach the right thing, but the Church as an institution with Peter (the Pope) at the head IS guaranteed. So Priests can be wrong, but provided the simply teach what the Holy Spirit teaches through the Church, then they will not err because they are following the authority.
So I agree that the authority is ultimately GOD but how does he give us that authoritative teaching, since some of us are ignorant and unstable (1 Pet 3:16 )as we have already discussed.
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Post by Maranata on Jul 23, 2003 17:09:15 GMT -5
Ok in the same tone give me your opinion (not your interpretation) on Romans 2...
The Jews and the Law
17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth-- 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."[2]
25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the[3] written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.
I will takle at your answer tomorrow because I got to go home and to be family taxi! LOL ;D
GOD Bless,
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Post by evangelistrichard on Jul 23, 2003 21:16:04 GMT -5
Can anyone interpret scripture, the answer it yes is they are born again and led of the spirit.....
IT is when man gets in the way of God that causes problems...
Now if we could not why does the Lord tell us to study the word.......
answer so that we may know if the preachers and teachers are teaching and preaching the Bible according to what it says. not according to what they want it to say...........
That simple folk........ as for me it is simple.........
GOD SAID IT . IT IS TRUE WHETHER YOU OR I BELIEVE IT OR NOT..........
Now what more do we need than the leading of the Holy Spirit to guide us in the truth......
Not a church; or a doctrine of man but the leading of the Holy Spirit to show us the way
that simple folks.......... For man can twist the word of God around so that you believe what he says if you donot know the word.
the LORD SAYS MY PEOPLE PERISH FROM LACK OF KNOWLEDGE......
GOD BLESS YOU..... EVAN . RICH
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Post by Archangelwolf on Jul 24, 2003 3:20:49 GMT -5
The Pope is a man, plain and simple. He is not the ultimate authority on earth. He should not have his fingers and toes kissed by patrons in the streets. He should not be bowed down to like some Roman emperor.
The Catholic Church claims that the Pope is the Head of the Church pro tempore until the return of Christ. The Bible says that Christ is already here; in the form of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God Himself. The Holy Spirit is the Head of the Church.
Ahhh! But perhaps the problem is our perception of church. The Church of Jesus Christ is not a great cathedral with elegant paintings and mural-like windows. It is not the old wooden church in some podunk town in Arkansas. THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST IS THE HEART, SOUL, AND MIND OF THE BELIEVER. Christ dwells within us through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is where believers are led astray. We start believing that our answers are in some building with a priest, or a minister. This is fallacy. Our answers are in the indwelling Holy Spirit within us as believers in Jesus Christ. As we pray, we seek counsel from His Word, and ask His Spirit to guide us towards understanding what we can humanly comprehend about the mysteries of His creation, and the revelations of His will.
Peter is not the rock for which the church must stand. Jesus is that rock. Against Jesus, nothing can prevail.
My last point: I do believe that there are many devoted followers of Christ in Catholicism. However, I could never reconcile myself to a denomination that can put Mary on the same pedestal as Jesus Christ. The whole concept of Marian theology is blasphemous, sacriligious, and downright contradictory to the whole concept of Christianity.
Regards,
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I get all pumped up when I enter the debate board. 