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Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 24, 2004 14:30:17 GMT -5
Is there a Bull that says Catholics can't sign up for the Federal Do-Not-Call List? Scott, Oh My Gosh, hope not!!!! I signed up for it. Blessings, Ann
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Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 24, 2004 14:32:19 GMT -5
I forgot -- doesn't apply to non-prophets. Scott, ROFL....very very cute! Blessings, Ann
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Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 24, 2004 15:07:23 GMT -5
Ann,
I just can't agree with teachings that come from nowhere. I can read the statements and explanations made in the doctrines of Catholic Church.
The explanation of "it is true because we believe it now, and have always believed it and we don't make mistakes" don't cut it.
Pulling single scriptures out of context don't cut it.
Saying you're not same the church that masacered tens of thousands of people for not confessesing to our beliefs. That was hundreds of years ago. But then claiming to be the church with an unbroken chain of apostolic sucession back to 33 AD. That don't cut it.
Saying that protestants are the cause of disunity while ignoring that your own church just killed anyone that disagreed with it to put down disunity within until it lost all political control over Europe. That don't cut it.
Scott
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Post by Pietro on Mar 24, 2004 15:47:33 GMT -5
Ann, I just can't agree with teachings that come from nowhere. I can read the statements and explanations made in the doctrines of Catholic Church. The explanation of "it is true because we believe it now, and have always believed it and we don't make mistakes" don't cut it. Pulling single scriptures out of context don't cut it. Saying you're not same the church that masacered tens of thousands of people for not confessesing to our beliefs. That was hundreds of years ago. But then claiming to be the church with an unbroken chain of apostolic sucession back to 33 AD. That don't cut it. Saying that protestants are the cause of disunity while ignoring that your own church just killed anyone that disagreed with it to put down disunity within until it lost all political control over Europe. That don't cut it. Scott I can sympathize with your thinking but reformers also did their share of Killing. So, what does that mean? I mean why pick on the Catholics? Other churches, other reformers have been just as violent, just as self rightous, just as exclusive in their "salvation".
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Post by marysia on Mar 24, 2004 17:27:15 GMT -5
I can sympathize with your thinking but reformers also did their share of Killing. So, what does that mean? I mean why pick on the Catholics? Other churches, other reformers have been just as violent, just as self rightous, just as exclusive in their "salvation". i think it's denominational tradition (in keeping with the apostolic trad.)
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Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 24, 2004 18:02:39 GMT -5
My point would be then that "The Catholic Church" can be wrong, in that at in given time in its history, "The Catholic Church" has consisted of people. Ordinary people, capable of making mistakes. People refer to "The Catholic Church" as if it were this person with a mind of its own. It's a collection of people. Each person responsible to God for his/her own actions. The individuals leading the Church have made mistakes.
The individuals leading the Church some 1600 years ago may have made mistakes concerning the sinlessness of Mary. Different groups within the Catholic Church have gotten away with rotton stuff over the last 2000 years not because it was right but because they had political power, wealth, and military might. Not all the "Fathers" agreed with the Church or with each other. Claiming the Catholic Church as a model of unity because it has had itself and Tradition to guide it is a falsehood. It's certainly not a reason to deny that the Scriptures are the only true source of God's revelation of Himself to mankind.
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Post by Pietro on Mar 24, 2004 20:04:55 GMT -5
My point would be then that "The Catholic Church" can be wrong, in that at in given time in its history, "The Catholic Church" has consisted of people. Ordinary people, capable of making mistakes. People refer to "The Catholic Church" as if it were this person with a mind of its own. It's a collection of people. Each person responsible to God for his/her own actions. The individuals leading the Church have made mistakes. The individuals leading the Church some 1600 years ago may have made mistakes concerning the sinlessness of Mary. Different groups within the Catholic Church have gotten away with rotton stuff over the last 2000 years not because it was right but because they had political power, wealth, and military might. Not all the "Fathers" agreed with the Church or with each other. Claiming the Catholic Church as a model of unity because it has had itself and Tradition to guide it is a falsehood. I'm pretty much with you up to this point. I don't ( even even the Catholic Church doesn't) make claims of being a model of unity. Even among "faithful" Catholics in communion there is need for greater charity and understanding. I don't see how that exclusive claim necessarily follows. Even non Christian religions can offer some true glimps of God's revelation.
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Post by Pietro on Mar 24, 2004 20:11:00 GMT -5
I don't believe we need traditions or Tradition. Jesus said ... 16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.John 14:16-17, 26 NASBThe Holy Spirit teaches each Christian what God wants him to know and do. And reminds him to do it. Scott Am I to understand that you see no need for koinonia, or guidance, or accountability to any human beings? Why didn't God just create us on our own individual planets? As for tradition, I challenge you to examine your life and identify the many traditions right under your nose. They are inescapable.
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Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 25, 2004 1:18:55 GMT -5
Ann, I just can't agree with teachings that come from nowhere. I can read the statements and explanations made in the doctrines of Catholic Church. The explanation of "it is true because we believe it now, and have always believed it and we don't make mistakes" don't cut it. It is not said that way at all...it is said that if it was good enough for the apostles it is good enough for us, basically. The not making mistakes pertains to dogma. The pope is infallible not impeccable.Pulling single scriptures out of context don't cut it. I totally agree....that is why we do not do it. There is always more than one place in the Bible that confirms the point.Saying you're not same the church that masacered tens of thousands of people for not confessesing to our beliefs. That was hundreds of years ago. But then claiming to be the church with an unbroken chain of apostolic sucession back to 33 AD. That don't cut it. I do not see how one affects the other. People are human and can sin and obviously do. Can people not grow spiritually and correct wrongs done? Apostolic succession is a fact of history that can not change. As for killing thousands of people, how many catholics were martyred for their beliefs. I do not judge people of today for that.Saying that protestants are the cause of disunity while ignoring that your own church just killed anyone that disagreed with it to put down disunity within until it lost all political control over Europe. That don't cut it. See above. I have never said that and never heard it said.Scott Scott, I respect your beliefs and reasons for not being a RCC, even though I do not agree with them.
Blessings, Ann
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Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 25, 2004 6:19:12 GMT -5
Am I to understand that you see no need for koinonia, or guidance, or accountability to any human beings? Why didn't God just create us on our own individual planets? As for tradition, I challenge you to examine your life and identify the many traditions right under your nose. They are inescapable. I am accountable to those God put in authority over me, as is anyone else. I am accountable to my neighbors to love them ("you can owe no one anything except this: to love them.") I certainly want to love my wife, children, family, and friends. God put us here together with free will so that we could love each other and by doing so, love him. Sure, my family and culture has traditions. My local church has traditions. But they're not useful for salvation. Niether is the Catholic Church's Apostolic Tradition because isn't trustworthy. It has no basis in the Lord and the writings develop theories opposed to scriptural doctrine. That's what I meant. Scott
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Post by genesda on Mar 25, 2004 6:25:59 GMT -5
Another note; The bible is the written testament of the word of God Christ is the WORD Christ comes before the bible When Christ did different things, like break the Sabbath, If Jesus had broken the sabbath he would have been a sinner and NOT QUALIFIED as a true sacrifice for sin. This is what I dislike about Roman teachings. You want Jesus to be a sinner like you so you can be comfortable in your sins. This is a lie from Satan. Jesus never sinned. [/color] condemn plural marriage, etc This shocked the pharisees (self-righteous men that they were) When Christ comes again, don't be the pharisees. You already are. You just condemned Jesus as a sabbath breaker when He never sinned. [/color]
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Post by Pietro on Mar 25, 2004 9:25:20 GMT -5
I am accountable to those God put in authority over me, as is anyone else. This is how we view our Bishops on matters of faith whether they deserve it or not. Not only to love each other but to help each other, to learn from each other, to be set straight by each other, to hold each other acountable, to support each other, encourage each other. Christianity is very community oriented. Even God is essentially a community of three persons. I hear in your theology a rugged spiritual individualism that can be dangerous. How many sincere but misguided religious famatics have proven this. And there I just have to flat out disagree with you. Many traditions, such as the Divine Office, Sacraments, Liturgy, Stations of the Cross, traditional prayers have helped me and millions get closer to the Lord, more deeply understand God's voice in our lives and discern how best to repond.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 25, 2004 11:53:38 GMT -5
I hear in your theology a rugged spiritual individualism that can be dangerous. How many sincere but misguided religious famatics have proven this. "What are you talking about?" he asked in a sincere, peaceful, soft tone of voice that indicated that he was not offended but merely curious. I am hardly a rugged individualist. I am member of my community who believes in serving others lovingly like Jesus -- regardless of what they believe. What is it about "my theology" that leads you to make such a statement? I'm have no real problem with traditions that lead people to a deeper relationship with God, helping them to understand their need for real prayer, studying the scriptures, and obedience to the words of Christ in how to conduct their lives, especially their relationships with other people. Most important is knowing about salvation, the need for it and the requirement to tell the unsaved about it. My problem is not with traditions. My problem is with Apostolic Tradition -- the collection of writtings of men who lived after the Apostles of Jesus & Paul (say about 100 AD) to sometime around 700 AD; Men the Catholic Church claims were successors to the Apostles. These writings are used to suport a variety of claims I don't hold to because I find them to be in disagreement with the scriptures themselves. Scott
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Post by Pietro on Mar 25, 2004 13:55:43 GMT -5
"What are you talking about?" he asked in a sincere, peaceful, soft tone of voice that indicated that he was not offended but merely curious. I am hardly a rugged individualist. I am member of my community who believes in serving others lovingly like Jesus -- regardless of what they believe. What is it about "my theology" that leads you to make such a statement? Having filled his belly with a delicious lunch of sweet potatoes, mixed vegetables and a wheat roll, he patiently replies to his brother in Christ, " This quote: You seem to read the words of Jesus as if they only apply to individuals and not the Church. This, by the way, is my main gripe with Protestantism. While it is indeed true that God has an intimate relationship with each of us as individuals and that we each are ultimately acountable to God alone in the depths of our conscience it is also true that we need to be spiritually accountable to others here on earth. It is not just me and the Holy Spirit telling me what to do, what to believe. Many questions have been well thought out. I see tradition as 2000 years of collective wisdom even in the midst of 2000 years of foolishness. Ther is a great deal to learn from each other and from tradition. I can respect that. But the way I approach scripture and the way I approach the writtings of the fathers differes from yours. I see the scriptures, especially the New Testament, as a snap shot of the Christian tradition at a given moment of time, a time in which the return of Jesus was expected within the generation. I see the writtings of the fathers as a continuation of the inquiry into the meaning of the incarnation. And.... When it comes to contemporary Church teachings I also see them as a snapshot. When it comes to teachings that I do not like or do not understand I can assent to them because they do not seem to me something to make a fuss over. Opportunity here to exercise humility and deference to the bishops. I have a real problem with the Infallibility thing even knowing that it referes to only special circumstances. What did we have to go and do that for? But I can live with it. The Sacraments mean that much to me. I encounter Christ in them as much as I encounter Christ in scripture, really I do. They transformed my life. They bring scripture alive. Tradition is alive. It gave birth to scripture. Worth putting up with other things that I don't fully buy into. So while I may have weak assent on some issues I do not have dissent on them.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 25, 2004 14:19:14 GMT -5
What is "The Church"?
Scott
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