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Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 16, 2004 8:03:45 GMT -5
Scott, You must remember that the apostles were told to pkmtyolp on teachings, both oral and written. Not everything was written down. Some was pkmtyolped on orally. Everything Jesus said and taught can not possibly be in the Bible. You are differentiating between apostolic and catholic tradition. There is no difference to us, whether you agree or not. As for the examples that you said are not in the bible, such as confession, purgatory, etc.....they are scripturally sound and can be supported by looking in the index of any catholic bible. Blessings, Ann I do not differ between "Apostolic Tradition" and "Catholic Tradition." I mean the same collection of writings by both terms. For sake of clarity, I'll stick with "Apostolic Tradition[/i]." Scott[/color]
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Post by genesda on Mar 17, 2004 7:27:04 GMT -5
I really am trying to be open minded but it seems to me that the letter to the Corinthians was probably written about 56 A.D., before most of the the Gospels were written, certainly before the writtings attributed to John. Should we discard them since they exceed what was already written? I donn't understand your thinking. "Exceeding" would be adding to, or veering from what is already written. This doesn't include additional truths which are in harmony with what is already written. This is the correct way to decide canon. [/color]
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Mel
New Member
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Post by Mel on Mar 17, 2004 10:37:30 GMT -5
Just wandering if anyone can shed some light on these contradictions?
......................... Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire. - Matthew 5:22
[Jesus said] Ye fools and blind. - Matthew 23:17 .........................
Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. - 2 Kings 8:26
Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. - 2 Chronicles 22:2 .........................
Therefore Michal, the daughter of Saul, had no child unto the day of her death. - II Samuel 6:23
The five sons of Michal, the daughter of Saul. - II Samuel 21:8 ......................... A man may marry his brother's widow Deut 25:5 A man may not marry his brother's widow Lev 20:21
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Man was created after the other animals Gen 1:25,26,27 Man was created before the other animals Gen 2:18,19
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There were fourteen generations from Abraham to David Matt 1:17 There were but thirteen generations from Abraham to David Matt 1:2-6
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The Earth is to be destroyed 2 Pet 3:10/ Heb 1:11/ Rev 20:11 The Earth is never to be destroyed Ps 104:5/ Eccl 1:4
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Post by genesda on Mar 18, 2004 6:29:08 GMT -5
That is in itself a private interpretation. ;D Not at all. Scripture does interpret itself and tells us that . That;s why we are told private interpretation is forbidden. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Mar 18, 2004 6:31:52 GMT -5
Just wandering if anyone can shed some light on these contradictions? ......................... Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire. - Matthew 5:22 [Jesus said] Ye fools and blind. - Matthew 23:17 ......................... Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. - 2 Kings 8:26 Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. - 2 Chronicles 22:2 ......................... Therefore Michal, the daughter of Saul, had no child unto the day of her death. - II Samuel 6:23 The five sons of Michal, the daughter of Saul. - II Samuel 21:8 ......................... A man may marry his brother's widow Deut 25:5 A man may not marry his brother's widow Lev 20:21 ......................... Man was created after the other animals Gen 1:25,26,27 Man was created before the other animals Gen 2:18,19 ......................... There were fourteen generations from Abraham to David Matt 1:17 There were but thirteen generations from Abraham to David Matt 1:2-6 ......................... The Earth is to be destroyed 2 Pet 3:10/ Heb 1:11/ Rev 20:11 The Earth is never to be destroyed Ps 104:5/ Eccl 1:4 Contradictions are in the misunderstanding of the one who's seeing them. [/color]
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Post by marysia on Mar 18, 2004 9:49:58 GMT -5
That is in itself a private interpretation. ;D Not at all. Scripture does interpret itself and tells us that . That;s why we are told private interpretation is forbidden. [/color][/quote] whoa back up -- that's what the Rcc had said for neigh onto forever and you said they were wrong -- which way gene. can we read for ourselves and interprut scruptire or not...
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Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 18, 2004 16:49:05 GMT -5
The "Catholic Church" bases some of its claims on the mistranslation of this scripture …
22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. John 20:22-23 Douay-Rheims
However, let’s look at the scripture in it’s original Greek …
22 kai' tou'to eipô'n enephu'sêsen kai' le'gei au'tois, La'bete pneu'ma ha'gion : 23 a'n tinôn aphê'te ta's hamarti'as aphe'ôntai au'tois : a'n tinôn kratê'te kekra'têntai . John 20:22-23 transliterated from the Nestlé-Aland 26 Greek New Testament Text
Looking at the individual Greek words and translating them into English ...
Inflected Greek Word [Base Word] (Gramatical Info) English Translation [22] enephu'sêsen [emphusaô] (v 3rd sg aor act ind) <he/she/it> blew kai'[kai'] (conj) and le'gei [le'gô] (v 3rd sg pre act ind) <he/she/it> says au'tois [auto's] (pn per/pos 3rd pl dat/loc/ins mas/neu) <to/in/by> them , [,] (punc) , La'bete [lambanô] (v 2nd pl aor act imp) <youpl> must receive {or take} pneu'ma [pneu'ma] (n nom/acc sg neu) spirit ha'gion [hagios] (adj acc sg neu) holy : [:] (punc) ; [23] a'n [a'n] (particle) so ever tinôn [ti's] (pn ind gen/abl pl) <of/from> someone {or something}pl aphê'te [aphiêmi] (v 2nd pl aor act sub) <youpl> might forgive {or let go} ta's hamarti'as [hamartia] (n acc pl fem) the sins aphe'ôntai [aphiêmi] (v 3rd pl per pas ind) <they> had been forgiven au'tois [auto's] (pn per/pos 3rd pl dat/loc/ins mas/neu) <to/in/by> them : [:] (punc) ; a'n [a'n] (particle) so ever tinôn [ti's] (pn ind gen/abl pl) <of/from> someone {or something}pl kratê'te [krateô] (v 2nd pl pre act sub) <youpl> might keep kekra'têntai [krateô] (v 3rd pl per pas ind) <they> had been kept . [.] (punc) .
A very rough translation would be ...
and | this | when <I/you/he> was saying | <he/she/it> blew | and | <he/she/it> says | <to/in/by> them | , | <youpl> must receive {or take} | spirit | holy | ; | so ever | <of/from> someone {or something}pl | <youpl> might forgive {or let go} | the sins | <they> had been forgiven | <to/in/by> them | ; | so ever | <of/from> someone {or something}pl | <youpl> might keep | <they> had been kept | .
Cleaning up the word order and adding punctuation, the translation reads ...
And when He was saying this, He blew and He said to them, “Youpl must receive the Holy Spirit; so ever youpl might forgive anyone’s sins, they had been forgiven to them; so ever youpl might keep {them}, they had been kept.”
Note that the actual verb tenses are almost the opposite of that in the Douay-Rheims (Catholic Church) translation. The D-R tenses would have the Apostles doing the forgiving/retaining first with this being followed up later with forgiveness or not in Heaven. But the tenses are incorrect in the D-R. The actual tenses are that of the Apostles only forgiving that which has already been forgiven in the past and retaining/keeping that which has already been retained kept in the past. The Apostles don’t determine to forgive or keep the sin. That’s already been done. They’re lead by the Holy Spirit to announce what God has already done. As can anyone who is lead by the Holy Spirit. That includes all Christians.
With all that said, next I'd like to apply it to the "Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation" or as it’s more commonly called, from one of it’s parts, "Confession."
Scott
abreviations in gramatical information: 2nd – second person; 3rd – third person; abl - ablative case; acc – accusative case; act – active voice; adj - adjective; aor – aorist tense; conj - conjunction; dat - dative case; dem – demonstrative type; fem – feminine gender; gen - genitive case; imp – imperative mood; ind - indicative mood; ins - insturmentive case; loc - locative case; mas - masculine gender; n - noun; neu - neuter gender; nom - nominative case; par – participle type; pas - pkmtyolpive voice; per - perfect tense; per/pos – personal/possessive type; pl – plural number; pn - pronoun; pre - present tense; punc - punctuation; sg – singular number; sub – subjunctive mood; v – verb;
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Post by genesda on Mar 19, 2004 6:55:57 GMT -5
So you don't have a problem with Peter being called Rock? With a capital "R"? That is reserved for Jesus who is the real Rock. Peter is a rock, as are the other apostles that make up the foundation of the original church. Peter himself said he was just "one of the stones". [/color] Since the Bible is not vague, then why doesn't Matt 16:18 refer to a Church being built on Peter (rock)? We don't know how Jesus was gesturing, so was He pointing to Peter or Himsself when He said "on THIS Rock I will build My church"? [/color] It is still Christ's Church. (Also, see Isaiah 22 for the allusion Jesus was making about the keys to the kingdom) Unless the Spirit has promised that there won't be any mistakes. I do understand your point, and it is a good analogy. I think the reason that we're differing here is that I'm coming from a perspective of a Spirit guided Church, and you're coming from a view of a church ruled by mere men. So the questions shouldn't be "Can Jesus keep Oral Tradition intact" or "Would Jesus keep an oral Tradition intact" but rather "DID Jesus keep an Oral Tradition intact." The oral traditions of the apostles were written in the scriptures, AFTER they were first spoken orally. [/color] So we're back to original question. Where in the Bible does it say that EVERYTHING is in Scripture?! I don't feel like this has been sufficiently addressed. Peace- logos Everything man needs to understand and attain salvation IS in the scriptures. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Mar 19, 2004 7:00:45 GMT -5
[quote author=TarueBeliever
And when He was saying this, He blew and He said to them, “Youpl must receive the Holy Spirit; so ever youpl might forgive anyone’s sins, they had been forgiven to them; so ever youpl might keep {them}, they had been kept.”
Note that the actual verb tenses are almost the opposite of that in the Douay-Rheims (Catholic Church) translation. The D-R tenses would have the Apostles doing the forgiving/retaining first with this being followed up later with forgiveness or not in Heaven. But the tenses are incorrect in the D-R. The actual tenses are that of the Apostles only forgiving that which has already been forgiven in the past and retaining/keeping that which has already been retained kept in the past. The Apostles don’t determine to forgive or keep the sin. That’s already been done. They’re lead by the Holy Spirit to announce what God has already done. As can anyone who is lead by the Holy Spirit. That includes all Christians.
With all that said, next I'd like to apply it to the "Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation" or as it’s more commonly called, from one of it’s parts, "Confession."
Scott
Scott, this is a good job of correctly explaining these verses. What Rc's forget is the "keys", the scriptures. Explaining a little bit further, we are to know or use the scriptures to determine if one has been forgiven in heaven before declaring the confirmation to them. That is why the "keys to the kingdom" are the scriptures, not the words of men. [/color]
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Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 20, 2004 9:48:39 GMT -5
The "Catholic Church" also bases some of its claims on the mistranslation of this scripture …
19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. Matthew 16:19 Douay-Rheims
As before, let’s look at the scripture in it’s original Greek …
19 dôsô soi tas kleidas tês basileias tôn ouranôn, kai ho ean dêsêis epi tês gês estai dedemenon en tois ouranois, kai ho ean lusêis epi tês gês estai lelumenon en tois ouranois. Matthew 16:19 transliterated from the Nestlé-Aland 26 Greek New Testament Text.
Looking at the individual Greek words and translating them into English ...
Inflected Greek Word [Base Word] (Grammatical Info) English Translation [19] dôsô [didômi] (v 1st sg fut act ind) I will give soi [su] (pn per/pos 2nd sg dat/loc/ins) to/in/by you tas kleidas [kleis] (n acc pl fem) the keys {to a problem} tês basileias [basileias] (n gen/abl sg fem) of/from the kingdom tôn ouranôn [ouranos] (n gen/abl pl mas) of/from the heavens , [,] (punc) , kai [kai] (conj) and ho [hos] (pn rel nom/acc sg neu) what {or that} ean [ean] (conj) if so ever dêsêis [deô] (v 2nd sg aor act sub) you might bind epi [epi] (prep gen/loc/acc) on tês gês [gê] (n gen sg fem) of/from the earth estai [eimi] (v 3rd sg fut mid ind) he/she/it will be for/of/to him/her/itself dedemenon [deô] (v per pas par nom sg neu) having been bound en [en] (prep loc/ins) in {or on}/by tois ouranois [ouranos] (n dat/loc/ins pl mas) to/in/by the heavens , [,] (punc) , kai [kai] (conj) and ho [hos] (pn rel nom/acc sg neu) what {or that} ean [ean] (conj) if so ever lusêis [luô] (v 2nd sg aor act sub) you might unbind epi [epi] (prep gen/loc/acc) on tês gês [gê] (n gen sg fem) of/from the earth estai [eimi] (v 3rd sg fut mid ind) he/she/it will be for/of/to him/her/itself lelumenon [luô] (v per pas par nom sg neu) having been unbound en [en] (prep loc/ins) in {or on}/by tois ouranois [ouranos] (n dat/loc/ins pl mas) to/in/by the heavens . [.] (punc) .
A very rough translation for this verse would be ...
<I> will give | <to/in/by> you | the keys {to a problem} | <of/from> the kingdom | <of/from> the heavens | , | and | what {or that} | if so ever | <you> might bind | on | <of/from> the earth | <he/she/it> will be <for/of/to> <him/her/itself> | having been bound | in {or on}/by | <to/in/by> the heavens | , | and | what {or that} | if so ever | <you> might unbind | on | <of/from> the earth | <he/she/it> will be <for/of/to> <him/her/itself> | having been unbound | in {or on}/by | <to/in/by> the heavens | .
Cleaning up the word order and adding punctuation, the translation reads …
I will give to you the keys {to the problem} of the Kingdom of Heaven, and what, if so ever, you might bind on Earth, it will have been bound in Heaven, and what, if so ever, you might unbind on Earth, it will have been unbound in Heaven.
Again, note that the actual verb tenses are almost the opposite of that in the Douay-Rheims (Catholic Church) translation. The D-R tenses would have the Apostles doing the binding/loosing first with this being followed up later with binding/loosing in Heaven. But, again, the tenses are incorrect in the D-R. The actual tenses are that of the Apostles only binding/loosing that which has already been bound/loosed in the past. The Apostles don’t determine to forgive or keep the sin. That’s already been done. As I posted before, they’re lead by the Holy Spirit to announce what God has already done.
Scott
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Post by masarap on Mar 20, 2004 12:26:38 GMT -5
Tarue, I can see it as clear as a bell and it perfectly dovetails into the spirit of reconcillation that Christ brought!!! If the church went around binding sins to people..., who could be saved? How many times are we to forgive our brother? 70 x 7!!! Yet binding a sin to someone means that the man who bound would have to be the man that loosed!! I have never known of a mere man that can accurately judge the heart..... Man could only bind and loose by observing the outward apperance!!!! I don't care if a man wears a white robe and has a pointy hat with a big ole ring on his finger. He is still a man that will err terribly in judging the hearts of others. What I hope that man does do is judge his own heart against Gods Word then he could better attend to being a servant..... Because the greatest in the kingdom wears the robes of a servant......
Binding and loosing is being in agreement with God but NOT man.... Good job with the greek!!! Masarap
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Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 20, 2004 12:58:32 GMT -5
Scott, You must remember that the apostles were told to pkmtyolp on teachings, both oral and written. Not everything was written down. Some was pkmtyolped on orally. Everything Jesus said and taught can not possibly be in the Bible. You are differentiating between apostolic and catholic tradition. There is no difference to us, whether you agree or not. As for the examples that you said are not in the bible, such as confession, purgatory, etc.....they are scripturally sound and can be supported by looking in the index of any catholic bible. Blessings, Ann Let’s look at the "Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation" or as it’s more commonly called, from one of it’s parts, "Confession."
I have no problem with confession. Confessing our sins is definitely scriptural …13 But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place, attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, "I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches."14 Seven sons of one Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.15 And the evil spirit answered and said to them, "I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?"16 And the man, in whom was the evil spirit, leaped on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.17 This became known to all, both Jews and Greeks, who lived in Ephesus; and fear fell upon them all and the name of the Lord Jesus was being magnified.18 Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing their practices. Acts 19:13-18 NASB13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.James 5:13-16 NASB5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.1 John 1:9 NASBHowever, the "Catholic Church" claims …“ Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance: ‘All mortal sins of which penitents after a diligent self-examination are conscious must be recounted by them in confession, even if they are most secret and have been committed against the last two precepts of the Decalogue; for these sins sometimes wound the soul more grievously and are more dangerous than those which are committed openly.’” The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CotCC), Paragraph 1456. “ One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience. The confession of venial faults, without being necessary in itself, is nevertheless strongly recommended by the Church.” CotCC, Paragraph 1493. Why must one confess one’s sins to a priest? In James 5, the Word of God says, “ confess your sins to one another,” not to a priest. And when The Lord himself gave us a model prayer in Matthew 6, He said, “Our Father who is in heaven, … forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. Jesus taught us to ask the Father directly for forgiveness.”
On what scripture does the "Catholic Church" base its claims? Primarily, it’s based on a misinterpretation of the scriptures. By the words of Jesus in Matthew 16:19 and John 20:22-23, the "Catholic Church" understands that the power of forgiving or not forgiving sins was giving to the Apostles (and to their successors). However, I’ve already shown that this not true in previous posts to this thread.
Scott
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Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 20, 2004 21:45:29 GMT -5
Let’s look at the "Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation" or as it’s more commonly called, from one of it’s parts, "Confession."
I have no problem with confession. Confessing our sins is definitely scriptural …13 But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place, attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, "I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches."14 Seven sons of one Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.15 And the evil spirit answered and said to them, "I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?"16 And the man, in whom was the evil spirit, leaped on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.17 This became known to all, both Jews and Greeks, who lived in Ephesus; and fear fell upon them all and the name of the Lord Jesus was being magnified.18 Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing their practices. Acts 19:13-18 NASB13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.James 5:13-16 NASB5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.1 John 1:9 NASBHowever, the "Catholic Church" claims …“ Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance: ‘All mortal sins of which penitents after a diligent self-examination are conscious must be recounted by them in confession, even if they are most secret and have been committed against the last two precepts of the Decalogue; for these sins sometimes wound the soul more grievously and are more dangerous than those which are committed openly.’” The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CotCC), Paragraph 1456. “ One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience. The confession of venial faults, without being necessary in itself, is nevertheless strongly recommended by the Church.” CotCC, Paragraph 1493. Why must one confess one’s sins to a priest? In James 5, the Word of God says, “ confess your sins to one another,” not to a priest. And when The Lord himself gave us a model prayer in Matthew 6, He said, “Our Father who is in heaven, … forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. Jesus taught us to ask the Father directly for forgiveness.”
On what scripture does the "Catholic Church" base its claims? Primarily, it’s based on a misinterpretation of the scriptures. By the words of Jesus in Matthew 16:19 and John 20:22-23, the "Catholic Church" understands that the power of forgiving or not forgiving sins was giving to the Apostles (and to their successors). However, I’ve already shown that this not true in previous posts to this thread.
Scott see: www.scripturecatholic.com/confession.htmlII. The Necessity and Practice of Orally Confessing Sins James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must confess our sins to one another (to our confessors), not just privately to God. Acts 19:18 - many came to orally confess sins and divulge their sinful practices. Oral confession was the practice of the early Church just as it is today. Matt. 3:6; Mark 1:5 - again, this shows people confessing their sins before others as an historical practice (here to John the Baptist). 1 Tim. 6:12 - this verse also refers to the historical practice of confessing both faith and sins in the presence of many witnesses. 1 John 1:9 - if we confess are sins, God is faithful to us and forgives us and cleanse us. But we must confess our sins to one another. Num. 5:7 - this shows the historical practice of publicly confessing sins, and making public restitution. 2 Sam. 12:14 - even though the sin is forgiven, there is punishment due for the forgiven sin. David is forgiven but his child was still taken (the consequence of his sin). Neh. 9:2-3 - the Israelites stood before the assembly and confessed sins publicly and interceded for each other. Sir. 4:26 - God tells us not to be ashamed to confess our sins, and not to try to stop the current of a river. Anyone who has experienced the sacrament of reconciliation understands the import of this verse. Baruch 1:14 - again, this shows that the people made confession in the house of the Lord, before the assembly. 1 John 5:16-17; Luke 12:47-48 - there is a distinction between mortal and venial sins. This has been the teaching of the Catholic Church for 2,000 years, but, today, most Protestants no longer agree that there is such a distinction. Mortal sins lead to death and must be absolved in the sacrament of reconciliation. Venial sins do not have to be confessed to a priest, but the pious Catholic practice is to do so in order to advance in our journey to holiness. Matt. 5:19 - Jesus teaches that breaking the least of commandments is venial sin (the person is still saved but is least in the kingdom), versus mortal sin (the person is not saved). BTW, you also go under the erroneous assumption that we are not asking God for forgiveness in confession. The catechism openly states that ONLY GOD can forgive sins. When I say "Father, forgive me" I am talking to God, my Father. The "Act of Contrition" is also to be said daily, asking for God's forgiveness of our sins. Blessings, Ann
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Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 20, 2004 22:50:49 GMT -5
see: www.scripturecatholic.com/confession.htmlII. The Necessity and Practice of Orally Confessing Sins James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must confess our sins to one another (to our confessors), not just privately to God. Acts 19:18 - many came to orally confess sins and divulge their sinful practices. Oral confession was the practice of the early Church just as it is today. Matt. 3:6; Mark 1:5 - again, this shows people confessing their sins before others as an historical practice (here to John the Baptist). 1 Tim. 6:12 - this verse also refers to the historical practice of confessing both faith and sins in the presence of many witnesses. 1 John 1:9 - if we confess are sins, God is faithful to us and forgives us and cleanse us. But we must confess our sins to one another. Num. 5:7 - this shows the historical practice of publicly confessing sins, and making public restitution. 2 Sam. 12:14 - even though the sin is forgiven, there is punishment due for the forgiven sin. David is forgiven but his child was still taken (the consequence of his sin). Neh. 9:2-3 - the Israelites stood before the assembly and confessed sins publicly and interceded for each other. Sir. 4:26 - God tells us not to be ashamed to confess our sins, and not to try to stop the current of a river. Anyone who has experienced the sacrament of reconciliation understands the import of this verse. Baruch 1:14 - again, this shows that the people made confession in the house of the Lord, before the assembly. 1 John 5:16-17; Luke 12:47-48 - there is a distinction between mortal and venial sins. This has been the teaching of the Catholic Church for 2,000 years, but, today, most Protestants no longer agree that there is such a distinction. Mortal sins lead to death and must be absolved in the sacrament of reconciliation. Venial sins do not have to be confessed to a priest, but the pious Catholic practice is to do so in order to advance in our journey to holiness. Matt. 5:19 - Jesus teaches that breaking the least of commandments is venial sin (the person is still saved but is least in the kingdom), versus mortal sin (the person is not saved). BTW, you also go under the erroneous assumption that we are not asking God for forgiveness in confession. The catechism openly states that ONLY GOD can forgive sins. When I say "Father, forgive me" I am talking to God, my Father. The "Act of Contrition" is also to be said daily, asking for God's forgiveness of our sins. Blessings, Ann My point is that the "Catholic Church" requires a "Confession" to be heard by a "Bishop" or "Priest" authorized to hear confessions in that area. No scripture you posted indicates this.
Scott
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Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 21, 2004 22:10:33 GMT -5
My point is that the "Catholic Church" requires a "Confession" to be heard by a "Bishop" or "Priest" authorized to hear confessions in that area. No scripture you posted indicates this.
Scott From the site that I reference in my last post: I. Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, "as the Father sent me, so I send you." As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins. John 20:22 - the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. Gen. 2:7 - the Lord "breathes" divine life into man. This is the only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place. John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear. Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to "men." Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles' successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors? Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 - Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the "Son of man" has authority to forgive sins on earth. Luke 5:24 - Luke also points out that Jesus' authority to forgive sins is as a man, not God. The Gospel writers record this to convince us that God has given this authority to men. This authority has been transferred from Christ to the apostles and their successors. Matt. 18:18 - the apostles are given authority to bind and loose. The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church. John 20:22-23; Matt. 18:18 - the power to remit/retain sin is also the power to remit/retain punishment due to sin. If Christ's ministers can forgive the eternal penalty of sin, they can certainly remit the temporal penalty of sin (which is called an "indulgence"). 2 Cor. 2:10 - Paul forgives in the presence of Christ (some translations refer to the presences of Christ as "in persona Christi"). Some say that this may also be a reference to sins. 2 Cor. 5:18 - the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ampkmtyolbadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance. James 5:15 - in this verse we see that sins are forgiven by the elders in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man's authority to forgive sins on earth. 1 Tim. 2:5 - Christ is the only mediator, but He was free to decide how His mediation would be applied to us. The Lord chose to use priests of God to carry out His work of forgiveness. Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 - even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others. Blessings, Ann
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