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Post by genesda on Mar 24, 2004 5:32:23 GMT -5
If it is so easy to understand then why so many denominations? Why do so many argue against the Holy Eucharist which is plainly stated by Jesus himself? I've never seen anything called "holy eucharist" in the scriptures. That is a Rc thing, not from the bible. [/color] What palaces? statues remind us of needing to spend more time with Jesus. Right, even after man is commanded not to "make" any graven images. [/color] Is it wrong to stress the importance of spending time with Jesus? Is reverence for our Lord and savior wrong? I do not think so. Blessings, Ann I guess it is what you call reverence or "spending time". I would think that spending time in prayer would be better than kneeling before a statue, which is also forbidden.
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Post by Pietro on Mar 24, 2004 9:36:13 GMT -5
A large portion of the Catholic Faith is to overcomplicate the simple Gosple of Jesus Christ and then say only the Catholic Church can explain it. It then explains it in a series of dogmas, councils, briefs, treatsies, constitutions that are footnoted, endnoted, paragraphed, and bulletined worse than the laws put together by the US Congress -- and most of it's in a language that hasn't been spoken by the living in 1600 years -- Latin. Jesus gave to his disciples all they needed to spead the news of his coming to save men from their sins and from Sin itself -- the information and the Holy Spirit to guide them, teach them, and help them to remember his words. It's not that complicated. It doesn't take a lifetime to understand the Gospel. A child can understand it. Believe Jesus. Believe what he said. Do what he said. Enough said. No need for eight syllable latin words, special costumes, palaces, rings to kiss, titles, statues, and the rest. Scott Like any institution composed of human beings the Church has, through the centuries, indeed accumulated a great deal and in a variety of languages. Vatican II sought to return to the roots, to the simple Gospel. For those really into tradition, seeing it as completely God inspired, this renewal, this simplifying, was betrayal. They broke of to be another sect. You can't please everyone. You state that the Gospel is not that complicated and you are correct. What is complicated is the world we live in and therefore applying the Gospel to such questions as Just War, Stem cell research, artificial nutrition and hydration, etc. I understand that you are more likely talking about some of the dogmas that seem to have little to do with these practical questions. Doctrines such as the Immaculate Conception of Mary, Transubstantiation, and purgatory to name a few. Doctrines that seem over complicated and useless. But then where would you draw the line? At which council would you say enough is enough? Do we need a doctrine defining Jesus as both true God and true man? A doctrine on the Trinity? Do we need a council to define which books ought to belong to the Bible? Catholic tradition is huge and ancient. It is more than just the product of a few men and councils. And, as various attempts at reform in history have shown, it is not easily changed or diverted. That inertia of momentum is both a strength and a weakness. A strength when it comes to the sound and necessary amplifications of the Gospel and a weakness when it comes to the purely human accretions over time. The bottom line is that it is the best thing we've got. Like it or not, when anyone reads the gospels their interpretations and thoughts do fall into a particular tradition of interpretation. I prefer the one with the oldest and most stable authorization. The reformation brought up many important and justifiable issues in need of reform. The Catholics Church eventual embarked on its own counter reform within itself. As to the reformers who went their own way, well, we see the result, they went each his own way destroying all unity. As human beings we need traditions, explanations, we need sounds and symbols to remind us and to help us experience the truth of the Gospels in personal ways. This is perhaps where Catholics differ from all others. God speaks to us in everything, in the sunrise and sunset, in the seasons, in our relationships with each other as well as in the Bible. I think for those steeped in the tradition, when we read a doctrine we have an intuitive sense of its deeper meaning in the larger context of the entire faith. We laugh when people accuse us of praying to statues or worshiping saints. They don’t have a clue of what we are really up to. We know without doubt that God alone is behind it all. And God alone is all that matters. Everything else points to God and so we honor them.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 24, 2004 12:05:15 GMT -5
Gene,
The Greek adjective "eucharistos" means "feeling the benefit of a gift or the feeling of thanks for such a gift," appearing only once in ...
15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. Col 3:15 NASB
The Greek noun "eucharistia" means "thankfulness or gratitude shown" appearing 15 times in Acts 24:3, 1Cor 14:16, 2Cor 4:15, 9:11, 12, Eph 5:4, Phlp 4:6, Col 2:7, 4:2, 1Thes 3:9, 1Tim 2:1, 4:3, 4, Rev 4:9, and Rev 7:12 as in ...
6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. Phlp 4:6 NASB
The Greek verb "eucharisto" means "give thanks" appearing 38 times in the New Testament in Mt 15:36, 26:27, Mk 8:6, 14:23, Lk 17:16, 18:11, 22:17, 19, Jn 6:11, 23, 11:41, Acts 27:35, 28:15, Rom 1:8, 21, 14:6, 16:4, 1Cor 1:4, 14, 10:30, 1Cor 11:24, 14:17, 18, 2Cor 1:11, Eph 1:16, 5:20, Phlp 1:3, Col 1:3, 12, 3:17, 1Thes 1:2, 2:13, 5:18, 2Thes 1:3, 2:13, Phle 1:4, and Rev 11:17 as in ...
6 And He directed the people to sit down on the ground; and taking the seven loaves, He gave thanks and broke them, and started giving them to His disciples to serve to them, and they served them to the people. Mark 8:6 NASB
I believe What Ann meant by "Holy Eucharist which is plainly stated by Jesus himself" was this ...
26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body." 27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, " Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom." Matthew 26:26-29 NIV
… and the parallel pkmtyolpages in Mark 14:22-25, and Luke 22:17-20. Paul also wrote about it in 1 Corinthians 11:23-25.
This is just an explaination of where Catholics get "Eucharist" from. Protestants don't call this the "Holy Eucharist." We call this the "Lord's Supper." I'm not saying we "remember" it in the same fashion either. Protestants do not believe the interpretation that the wine in the cup was actually Christ's shed blood nor do we believe the bread was Christ's flesh. And we don't believe in the power of Catholic priests to "transubstantiate" either wine or bread.
Scott
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Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 24, 2004 12:08:13 GMT -5
If it is so easy to understand then why so many denominations? Why do so many argue against the Holy Eucharist which is plainly stated by Jesus himself? I've never seen anything called "holy eucharist" in the scriptures. That is a Rc thing, not from the bible. [/color] What palaces? statues remind us of needing to spend more time with Jesus. Right, even after man is commanded not to "make" any graven images. [/color] Is it wrong to stress the importance of spending time with Jesus? Is reverence for our Lord and savior wrong? I do not think so. Blessings, Ann I guess it is what you call reverence or "spending time". I would think that spending time in prayer would be better than kneeling before a statue, which is also forbidden.
[/color][/quote] gene, Come on quit playing silly word games. It is so tiring. You know exactly what I mean. What exactly do you think that a person is doing as they kneel? If you were to see me kneel in front of my couch would you assume that I am worshipping and praying to my couch? You have been told many times that we do not pray to the statue, worship the statue, etc. Quit judging with your eyes. Blessings, Ann
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Post by marysia on Mar 24, 2004 12:20:18 GMT -5
If you were to see me kneel in front of my couch would you assume that I am worshipping and praying to my couch? Blessings, Ann i'd think you had company coming and were vacuuming or in dire need of spare change
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Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 24, 2004 13:02:34 GMT -5
i'd think you had company coming and were vacuuming or in dire need of spare change LOL marysia, You guessed it!!!! I needed spare change for those indulgences!!! Blessings, Ann
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Post by marysia on Mar 24, 2004 13:35:03 GMT -5
LOL marysia, You guessed it!!!! I needed spare change for those indulgences!!! Blessings, Ann ha ha ha wish i'd have thought of that!!
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Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 24, 2004 14:03:19 GMT -5
ha ha ha wish i'd have thought of that!! Why do you need spare change? Doesn't John Paul take collect calls?
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Post by Pietro on Mar 24, 2004 14:14:53 GMT -5
Why do you need spare change? Doesn't John Paul take collect calls? Actually he has Vatican telemarketers who pester us at all hours of the day forcing us to give our credit card numbers on threat of excommunication so we can pay our Catholic tax which helps him to buy more statues.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 24, 2004 14:21:53 GMT -5
I don't believe we need traditions or Tradition. Jesus said ...
16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. John 14:16-17, 26 NASB
The Holy Spirit teaches each Christian what God wants him to know and do. And reminds him to do it.
Scott
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Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 24, 2004 14:24:09 GMT -5
Actually he has Vatican telemarketers who pester us at all hours of the day forcing us to give our credit card numbers on threat of excommunication so we can pay our Catholic tax which helps him to buy more statues. Where does he (He?) put all of those statues?
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Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 24, 2004 14:24:11 GMT -5
Actually he has Vatican telemarketers who pester us at all hours of the day forcing us to give our credit card numbers on threat of excommunication so we can pay our Catholic tax which helps him to buy more statues. Which is why all of the "palaces", gotta store them somewhere! (thanx for the smiles everyone, I needed them) Blessings, Ann
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Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 24, 2004 14:25:59 GMT -5
Is there a Bull that says Catholics can't sign up for the Federal Do-Not-Call List?
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Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 24, 2004 14:28:17 GMT -5
I don't believe we need traditions or Tradition. Jesus said ... 16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.John 14:16-17, 26 NASBThe Holy Spirit teaches each Christian what God wants him to know and do. And reminds him to do it. Scott Scott, I agree, but, do you think that the Holy Spirit does not speak to the Pope or the magesterium? No all people are open to the Holy Spirit, unfortunately. Thus the Pope is our shepherd on earth, leading us all back to the fold and Jesus. Blessings, Ann
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Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 24, 2004 14:28:59 GMT -5
I forgot -- doesn't apply to non-prophets.
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